RE: =AQ= Fall into Fungibushi: Exclusive Gear & Community (Full Version)

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Lorekeeper -> RE: =AQ= Fall into Fungibushi: Exclusive Gear & Community (9/27/2024 23:16:56)

As mentioned above, the feedback about Spore implementation and technical problems has been passed on to the coders, and the team is looking at how to solve the issues. That is already underway. We cannot essentially do triple work by backing out of that to rework the set to do something completely different instead.



Aura Knight -> RE: =AQ= Fall into Fungibushi: Exclusive Gear & Community (9/27/2024 23:57:42)

Is there consideration to slow down on content updates to allow time to fix problems or is a schedule necessary to keep? If things constantly release poorly why add to the problems? It should be fine to have more weeks of correcting issues. We still have things needing fixes but there doesn't seem to be any time for them.

Maybe some change is needed with updates.



CarrionSpike -> RE: =AQ= Fall into Fungibushi: Exclusive Gear & Community (9/28/2024 0:16:41)

Hasn't content been slow already? We've pretty much only had the standard seasonal shops along with package/ggb releases, and of course several weeks dedicated to the Summer Donation Drive, but barely any quest releases. In fact I think the last quest release was ~2 months ago (unless I'm mistaken). Normally by this time of the year we'd have significantly more quest releases. We're also about to enter the gauntlet of Fall/Winter seasonal events and those cannot be skipped for obvious reasons.

Considering that the planned quest line for this Summer/Early Fall hasn't been completed and other planned releases have likely been pushed back (due to obvious reasons) I don't think it makes much sense to push everything back even further and leave the team with and even tighter schedule for the upcoming seasonal gauntlet.

Of course this doesn't mean that I'm pleased with the state of the currently released Fungibushi items, but the Donation Drive should not to consume more release weeks than it already has/is planned to.



icetears -> RE: =AQ= Fall into Fungibushi: Exclusive Gear & Community (9/28/2024 0:35:21)

I don’t mind dev taking some time to fix or update items and receiving fewer releases. There’s ton of items with fantastic art that were essential dead on release because they needed fixing or buffing. Donation items should get abit more attention to fix or update. I’m still waiting for the update on devoured shield from the last winter dono.



Aura Knight -> RE: =AQ= Fall into Fungibushi: Exclusive Gear & Community (9/28/2024 1:00:20)

Sacrificing content updates to fix flaws is worth making us wait. October and November can be a release of seasonal stuff only, maybe toss a note mentioning the winter update in november, do the black friday sale and this should free up time to fix things. It makes me confused as to why an update schedule is so very important in this instance. The AQ section of AE can't be that massive so why do we still push for weekly updates. There's a point where reason beats tradition.



Lorekeeper -> RE: =AQ= Fall into Fungibushi: Exclusive Gear & Community (9/28/2024 2:07:55)

Content updates would be the last thing we can afford to sacrifice even more of, especially when taking player feedback into consideration. We've already not only pushed the limit of how much we can be forced to scale back playable content, but had to continually postpone content plans as it is. It's having to do that in the first place that creates the buildup of backlog that makes updates vulnerable to this kind of situation where a disruption makes them overflow into later weeks. Without content to take items into, premium releases stop keeping the lights on. Ultimately, content weeks, if they're not too intensive, can be lighter and allow for more backlog decompression than entire sets. Taking extra weeks that contain the workload of redesigning an entire set would ultimately amount to aggravating the issue.

Fixes are already underway for the things that have broken. The update to the DefLoss status is in testing. Spore feedback has been collected. Please allow for some time to process.

Thank you for your patience.



Rastaban -> RE: =AQ= Fall into Fungibushi: Exclusive Gear & Community (9/28/2024 8:03:43)

Thanks for the painting! Reaping Gale is awesome.



Branl -> RE: =AQ= Fall into Fungibushi: Exclusive Gear & Community (9/28/2024 9:07:08)

Speaking strictly about the contest, one could make a fair argument to downsize the scale of the items of the contest.
Even assuming all goes well, two full sets require 2 weeks each at least to release.
I'll propose some potential time saving measures with regards to the contest that I've seen floated:

1) Scrapping the voting process/period.
This sort of ties into the issue with popularity based selection criteria with regards to negative impacts on the community. Staff either creating a set and providing some explanation on what it will do, or choosing a set not based on popularity, but based on feasibility of the implementation, how the sets can help broader itemization issues, and confidence in being able to implement the idea without having to deviate severely from the intended power output and purpose. I'm not sure how much this can streamline the contest period, but I presume there's some benefit, given said benefit is part of the reason the original Wingweaver was created so early.

2) Making the community set an elemental variant of the Giftmaster set.
This should, at least, cut the amount of work that has to be done. Balance considerations, and amount of different items that have to be made are halved. The community at large now has a vested interest in how the full Giftmaster set turns out, and you don't have suggestions proposed or fixes proposed that can be perceived as only being "to the benefit of a few".

3) Rather than full sets, Weapon/Misc/Shield like the Winter donation contest.
Similar to two, but more targeted. Armors are generally the most complex item category to design for. If it helps to avoid putting off more delays on behalf of the Summer contest, I thought it was at least worth floating.

I can't really take into consideration the financial aspect of these suggestions as a player. I don't really have any special insight to suggestions that are or aren't viable due to real financial concerns that have to be taken into account. Solutions two or three may or may not be feasible because of that.
I'd prefer to get confirmation from staff on where they are regarding that, then be afraid of potentially floating suggestions that aren't feasible. If they aren't, it would at least help guide player suggestions on how to help give staff more time to tackle backlog stuff.



Sapphire -> RE: =AQ= Fall into Fungibushi: Exclusive Gear & Community (9/28/2024 9:55:00)

quote:

2) Making the community set an elemental variant of the Giftmaster set.



Making it a copy but an elemental variant will reduce token donations. I think many players will take this as a reason to not go for any of the token versions.

Instead, what I proposed was taking the THEME and IDEAS and making a set using those, and making it a different element. And staff could even out their own spin on it.

But the community set would need to be scaled back. As an example, let's say in the giftmaster set has a new idea for a status and the proposal had it inflict oer hit up to 4 hits. The community set then, would need to be hits/misses and be some melee % based on that.. meaning the giftmaster set likely could use a 4 hit armor for greater power over the community set.

Another example: The weapon pays 25% damage for effect X for the community set, but the giftmaster set pays 50% damage or 25% damage + 25% melee SP for that effect. Things like this.

If you make it exactly the same, less people will donate and perhaps still obtain the idea/theme.

I'm on board with removing the community suggestion and making it similar to the giftmaster suggestion to reduce some workload, but not a clone.



Branl -> RE: =AQ= Fall into Fungibushi: Exclusive Gear & Community (9/28/2024 10:11:25)

quote:


Making it a copy but an elemental variant will reduce token donations. I think many players will take this as a reason to not go for any of the token versions.

Instead, what I proposed was taking the THEME and IDEAS and making a set using those, and making it a different element. And staff could even out their own spin on it.

But the community set would need to be scaled back. As an example, let's say in the giftmaster set has a new idea for a status and the proposal had it inflict oer hit up to 4 hits. The community set then, would need to be hits/misses and be some melee % based on that.. meaning the giftmaster set likely could use a 4 hit armor for greater power over the community set.


Any suggestion that involves making the community set deliberately weaker to "incentivize" donations would fly in the face of previous staff statements on premium items. They are not, and have not, ever been in the market for making premium items deliberately more powerful.
Premium items tend to be the experimental/time consuming stuff. Being experimental, the effects are liable to being weaker or stronger than average, people just hyperfocus on the stronger than average effects, ignore the massive amount of premium items that were weak and/or unpopular, and presume that premium = power is an acceptable stance for staff to take.

Besides, tweaking the community set to be purposefully weaker would actually take more time than just doing elemental variants. Further, I don't even want them to take the set and put their own spin on it without making it deliberately weaker. Anything that can give the appearance of "You donate for more powerful gear", regardless of intent, I'm not in favor of.
And again, I'm not AQ staff, I'm not interested in arguing the financial aspect of this, especially with a player that knows about as much as I do about that. Staff will take that into consideration, I'm sure. If they want to comment specifically on that to help guide player feedback, that's up to them.



Sapphire -> RE: =AQ= Fall into Fungibushi: Exclusive Gear & Community (9/28/2024 11:18:51)

Actually, anyone can look at the difference between token package items and something like an UR GGB and clearly see in plain sight that these items are better. What staff have said is everything is subject to balance.

These two ideas are completely different.

One must look to see.

Premium items are balanced just like non premium items, but they're better. Otherwise, why even be premium? Fairly obvious.

If you wish to dislike the exclusivity of the giftmaster set of items being better than the community set then make that argument. But the one you're making isn't accurate


Making the community set a copy of the giftmaster set is a bad idea



Aura Knight -> RE: =AQ= Fall into Fungibushi: Exclusive Gear & Community (9/28/2024 14:40:29)

Set just has a numbers issue. Concept is fine so if adjusted it has to be better. A reduction in turns to reach full potential will be best. And I also disagree with the clone idea. It defeats the point of donating once goal is met.



Dardiel -> RE: =AQ= Fall into Fungibushi: Exclusive Gear & Community (9/29/2024 15:14:57)

If Fungibushi suggestions are still happening, I have two proposals that I think fix the largest problems:

- To fix the problem of initial spores being too weak and growing too slowly; warwolf is precedent for "permanent+stacking" mechanics to have /5 power instead of /10 since it's not like you're only creating spores on the first turn. This would double their starting power and their growth rate.

- To fix the problem of too many spores; I propose a few steps:
- - Remove the spore hard cap, but keep 0.6 as a "trigger" value
- - When a spore reaches 0.6, if it isn't the topmost spore, it deletes itself and adds its power to the topmost spore
- - For the topmost spore, while at/above 0.6, it gains a multiplier on the growth rate equal to 5/(5+power); it also heals the player for [1-5/(5+power)]*100% of the damage dealt
This would allow all capped spores to compress into a single spore, and keep the significance of the 0.6 breakpoint while also adding a soft cap that prevents spores from getting problematically large without arbitrarily removing value for having spores.

The armor's Propagate skill would still end up in a funky situation (I'm not sure any spore stacking fix would prevent Propagate from becoming weird) but I'm sure there are several ways to keep the spirit of "skill that trades immediate spore benefits for longer-term spore benefits"; theoretically a simple option would be for Propagate to eat spores to inflict a permanent vulnerability to spore damage (or to the element dealt by spores, if that's even easier).



Sapphire -> RE: =AQ= Fall into Fungibushi: Exclusive Gear & Community (9/30/2024 14:46:46)

quote:

If Fungibushi suggestions are still happening, I have two proposals that I think fix the largest problems:

- To fix the problem of initial spores being too weak and growing too slowly; warwolf is precedent for "permanent+stacking" mechanics to have /5 power instead of /10 since it's not like you're only creating spores on the first turn. This would double their starting power and their growth rate.

- To fix the problem of too many spores; I propose a few steps:
- - Remove the spore hard cap, but keep 0.6 as a "trigger" value
- - When a spore reaches 0.6, if it isn't the topmost spore, it deletes itself and adds its power to the topmost spore
- - For the topmost spore, while at/above 0.6, it gains a multiplier on the growth rate equal to 5/(5+power); it also heals the player for [1-5/(5+power)]*100% of the damage dealt
This would allow all capped spores to compress into a single spore, and keep the significance of the 0.6 breakpoint while also adding a soft cap that prevents spores from getting problematically large without arbitrarily removing value for having spores.

The armor's Propagate skill would still end up in a funky situation (I'm not sure any spore stacking fix would prevent Propagate from becoming weird) but I'm sure there are several ways to keep the spirit of "skill that trades immediate spore benefits for longer-term spore benefits"; theoretically a simple option would be for Propagate to eat spores to inflict a permanent vulnerability to spore damage (or to the element dealt by spores, if that's even easier).


I like a lot of what's said here.

However, I still wonder if SP/MP, etc toggles need to be included on the weapon as an option to generate stronger spore..maybe even in addition to this. I get that the basic premise here is no save and no resource costs for the status as a baseline to enable something for especially lower-level players, but IMO that shouldn't exclude the toggle as an option.






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