RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (Full Version)

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Alexszander -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 12:45:19)

"The entire point is to not require the management of ten alt characters to comparatively stand a chance, giving all active players an equal chance to receive any given gift. Yes, this is in no small part because it's awful to tell a returning player that they need to farm 9 more characters to level 25+ and multiply their playtime tenfold to stand a chance in a gifting contest"
There is no "management" of ten alt characters - you create them, level them to 25 and you do 1 daily battle. - If you want to make this more "fair", remove the lvl 25+ requirement, allow people to receive donations, including 100M gold on lvl 1 characters, which would be a huge QoL update for everyone - they would be able to train stats as they level up, retrain and try new builds as many times as they want, buy whatever gold gear they desire to experiment with.
There is nothing "awful" about encouraging players - new, returning or veterans - to play your game more - it makes perfect sense from a business PoV and you should encourage this with changes like the one I suggested above. 1 daily battle takes between 1-2 mins on a low lvl alt character and this can easily be tested by anyone. If you can't afford 10-15 mins a day total, during the 2 dono events, that sounds much more like an individual problem. As you yourself pointed out - "lunch-break sized sessions of gameplay surely fit doing 10 battles, each 1-2 mins in length.
Speaking of generosity - the staff could also discount "guardianizing" a character for black friday or even 2-3 times a year in addition to black friday - all in the name of incentivizing players to level up their alt characters, gear them up, play them more and ultimately spend more on your business.



Lorekeeper -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 13:10:24)

Requiring the barest possible activity on 10 characters to stand a chance is not encouraging more gameplay, it's making tedium mandatory. Encouraging people to play the game more would involve additional rewards for playing content, and while that would be very nice in general, the effort that we would have to require of players in order to make that point applicable, or not go into unhelpful semantic arguments about the word "management", would make the situation even more onerous for all involved.

We absolutely need to improve the leveling experience and find ways to make having alternative characters more rewarding. We've already had discussions on ways to do just that. However, this should not come at the cost of creating unfavorable odds for others. Especially with Flash's notorious RNG making it challenging to promote equality as is. Everyone having the same odds so long as they're actively playing the game is not an act of oppression.

Further, we cannot remove the level 25 requirement. That was put into place to counteract botting that was hurting everyone's quality of life and the business as a whole.



Sapphire -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 13:11:51)

Alright, since staff isn't opposed to changing the contest mid-contest, I am going to propose a change to this one to attempt to re-balance the entire contest w/o hurting the account based system too much.

The token contest is currently only top 200 with tiers to top 50. This needs mostly scrapped.

Instead, we need top 25 get color custom versions of everything.

Top 50 (misc) Should be a guarantee.

LY, top 50 came in at 81,275. So let's say 75k get everyone a misc guaranteed. More people will donate the 75k IMO.

Top 100 is the weapon set. LY this came in at 28,600. Make this 35k for the guaranteed weapon set.

Top 200 is the shield. LY this came in at a measly 3125. Instead, make this a guaranteed 10k.

IMO, more people will

1. Give the guaranteed amount because there's no more risk. SO less people will hold their tokens for fear of not getting top X.
2. The top players tend to carry the lion's share of the total anyway, and they can still "duke it out" over the color custom versions.

I believe this will increase overall token donos, hopefully offsetting the reduced donations those who were using 10 chars would now be no longer getting.




Aura Knight -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 13:22:26)

quote:

Requiring the barest possible activity on 10 characters to stand a chance is not encouraging more gameplay, it's making tedium mandatory.


Not playing is a choice anyone's welcome to but those same people cannot then complain of unfairness when those who do more get rewarded instead of them. If you can't spare half an hour or less to keep yourself eligible, you're undeserving of rewards. You can call this greed if you'd like but this same greed is what brings in the huge token donations every year.



Lorekeeper -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 13:40:12)

Except that such is not a term of participation being presented to players. The point is that there is no content playthrough being required for participation. Making mules is rewarded more than keeping up with gameplay on alts, by virtue of being more time efficient. For the last time, please consider an argument not predicated on insulting other players.



Aura Knight -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 13:54:39)

quote:

Making mules is rewarded more than keeping up with gameplay on alts


This is because it's easy to reach the point of reward eligibility which defeats previous points of advantage and disadvantage. If it's easy to play alts, their use needs to be encouraged and these donations were the best incentive.

quote:

please consider an argument not predicated on insulting other players


The biggest insult was expressed by this decision to change what worked to the advantage of those who chose to play more in order to favor those playing less. It's a questionable ask to get everyone to play less when use of more characters can help increase token purchases and donations due to there being more options from which to donate. This new limitation will decrease totals and discourage continued playing.



Lorekeeper -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 14:03:46)

Again, the prior format didn't encourage playing on additional alts. It disproportionately rewarded farming a single battle a day.

Please review the post I made above to see the argument I actually made about playtime instead of reframing it as asking players to play less.



Aura Knight -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 14:17:47)

Define playing. As before all that's necessary now is winning one battle. What changed is we're expecting fewer overall rewards all to help distribution. The problem here is all alts can be deserving of reward regardless of how many are tied to a single account. If true fairness is to happen, vaults need removal.



Bu Kek Siansu -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 14:23:50)



http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=22419627
quote:

quote:

You can transfer Z-Tokens directly, but for Gold you're going to need to buy items and move them through the vault.

quote:

The most efficient way to store gold is the Gold Storage Chest in the Guardian Tower. It's the most expensive item in the game and has a much higher resell value than other items (which are also less efficient with regards to their Buy/Sell ratio).


Would it be possible to release a low level version of Gold Storage Chest
in order to help a ( new ) ( low level ) character for the training cost, etc
instead of to buy/store/sell an item and repeat it which is a bit annoying?


quote:

Gold Storage Chest should just be a level 0 item accessed by all. If anything place a limit on how many we can have with higher cap for Guardians.



My apologies for posting this here.

I asked a few times but may I get a reply?

Release a low level version of Gold Storage Chest or adjust it to a level 0 instead?

Thanks in advance. [:)]




PeeBall -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 14:41:51)

Before this change: Newer players get a tip from experienced players to create more characters to increase their chances of receiving token donations if they want to. Players who do not plan to spend too much time on the game ignore this, and players who wish to stay long term follow the advice. Over time, the latter group with their larger pool of tokens and more characters already made, get to enjoy more items and game content and explore a different build on each character.

After this change: none of the above.

This change will be regretted, and even more so if constructive criticism is ignored.



Sapphire -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 14:44:30)

I agree with LK in that the dono contest doesn't really cause players to make alts. They do make alts to increase the chances for donations, but the actual reason I decided to make alts and level them (to play them) was two-fold. It's more storage and I can play different builds w/o wholly swapping everything in my inventory. The actual natural progression of making and playing alts for most players I suspect is exactly as I have described.

Having 9 L25's and 1 L150 and playing the 25's for 1 battle/day isn't playing the game. It's only rewarding the ones who took the little amount of time to make the L25's. One of the problems is, is that there's been so little official communication from staff over the years as to the rules that so many are/were unaware of the rules. I'd even be willing to bet Hollow's recent post is missing pertinent info. (It's difficult to remember absolutely everything , I get it)

This change DOES lessen the need to always be on point with trying to get players to mostly understand the rules.

But at the end of the day, those players who were using the now old system to their advantage will now be getting way less donations, so they have a legitimate complaint. And attempting to squash that IMO isn't great optics. (This is an aside from some other unhealthy comments being attempted to be squashed)

Again, other remedies need to made to try and re-increase donations for everyone. Try and make this a win-win, please.



Alexszander -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 15:29:20)

"Requiring the barest possible activity on 10 characters to stand a chance is not encouraging more gameplay, it's making tedium mandatory." - So spending 1-2 mins per character, to do one battle, which would award you hundreds of millions of gold and/or z-tokens is tedious? All easily done during a lunch break? All those rewards which can further incentivize the person to play that alt, level it up more, try different items/builds - this is somehow not encouraging but the prospect of using this clearly outdated lvling process is supposed to be encouraging? You said it yourself, the lvling system needs an overhaul and in the meantime, the old dono system was more than an adequate band-aid for it.
"Encouraging people to play the game more would involve additional rewards for playing content" - possible solutions have already been suggested in this thread.
"this should not come at the cost of creating unfavorable odds for others." - nobody is creating unfavorable odds for others. Every player is free to create alts and do 1 daily battle with them, the option is not reserved only for "hardcore" players. This idea being completely unpromoted by the staff across social media platforms and in the official launcher or even the ingame news page is a glaring issue that should've been addressed by the staff, a long time ago. People should not have to dig into reddit posts or join discord servers in order to discover this "unfair" advantage.
"Everyone having the same odds so long as they're actively playing the game is not an act of oppression." - this statement would be true if the game launched today and nobody had alts. As things are right now, it is actively hurting people with alts who received more donations with the old system, as opposed to this new system which was just forced upon everyone with no warning and more importantly with no actual planning and solutions for obvious pain points in mind.
I am incredibly curious how would you, or any other staff member who agrees with you, view the fact that players who until today had the possibility of receiving 10x more donations and now will receive 10x less donations? If it is not "oppresive", which is a clearly inflamatory word, how else would you describe it?



Lorekeeper -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 15:32:15)

There are absolutely always improvements that could be made to communication and content formatting, and indeed to the general encouragement for playing multiple characters. We look forward to exciting ways to do that in particular without enforcing an unfair advantage that creates a disadvantage for other players. Something explicitly framed as a character progression reward, for instance, would be better than a situation that promotes an inherent inequality of the value of players' time in the game in a contest that is meant to be about generosity.

Under a system that doesn't rely on that, tokens more reliably reach newer players without needing perfunctory farming in the first place, and gifts are not as concentrated in a small group. More players receiving gifts, tokens needing fewer resendings to reach players who need them, and the general distribution being wider, is only an encouragement against gifting if one is attempting to treat the system as an investment with increased returns rather than what it has always been framed as: A gift to a random player.

The gifting contest can then be a gifting contest, and encouragement for having additional characters can happen separately, as part of exciting new features, without needing to distort the contest into a separation between accounts with special advantages and accounts with 10% of the odds.



Sir Cloud -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 15:35:45)

quote:

Making mules is rewarded more than keeping up with gameplay on alt

Tell that to those of us who have supported this game for more than a decade to the tune of many thousands of $$ developing out those so-called mules on our Accounts. I have 20 Level 150 Guardians, 8 of which are X-Guardians with 10 fully-stocked Skycastle Estates. Please don't go there about mules; it's insulting as is this move to punish multi-character Accounts for supporting this game platform. Again, if QOL for players is an issue, there's barely any strain on keeping up with gameplay on these alts since only 1 shower monster saved battle got you qualified for daily token giveaways. :)

quote:

This change will be regretted, and even more so if constructive criticism is ignored.

Totally agree, as it should have never been implemented in the first place. This is a slap-in the-face to anyone who has long supported the game (with multiple characters) to be denied receiving tokens during donations. Plus it's kinda hypocritical to pick apart multi-characters on this issue when the very system itself actually encourages you to create additional characters to begin with (ie from the Artix GameLauncher). You'd think a game company would want to expand game development not shrink it.



Progseeks -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 15:37:13)

I think that if this were reversed, going from account based donations to character based, that it would be met with outrage. I believe in the fairness that account based donations are trying to bring, and if I get less donations from that, so be it.



Lorekeeper -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 15:41:45)

Nobody is being denied the reception of tokens, and there is no move to punish support. Please consider the wording on the very sentence being partially quoted, particularly the essential word "more".



Sir Cloud -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 15:46:49)

quote:

Nobody is being denied the reception of tokens, and there is no move to punish support. Please consider the wording on the very sentence being partially quoted, particularly the essential word "more".

Yes I have given "more" over the years from 20 characters on 2 Accounts and am now being denied the token chances by 10X times due to this change. Again I have 20 Guardians that give during these events regularly. Guess you chose to ignore that and anyone else with multiple Guardian characters by this reasoning. This new system only serves to pander to people who don’t want to be bothered making more characters, while punishing those who do (and have done). Not a good look for AQ.



Ninjaty -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 15:47:33)

@Lorekeeper: Would it be possible to get a rundown of the exact algorithm used for gift distribution, to potentially eliminate confusion, alleviate concerns, and allow us a more solid foundation for discussion and feedback?



Lorekeeper -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 15:54:14)

quote:

Guess you chose to ignore that and anyone else with multiple Guardian characters with this reasoning.


Quite the opposite. I have been addressing this exact point that entire time. But now that the wording has changed from "to be denied receiving tokens during donations.", which is not happening, to "being denied the token chances by 10X times due to this change.", might I recommend reading what I posted in my reply before the quoted one? If there is any interest in middle ground, there is essentially relevant wording there.

@Ninjaty: I don't have the authority to do that, but I can pass that along and likely get an answer tomorrow.



Snowbound -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 15:54:53)

I think at the end of the day, this is really simple, just think with you wallets, theres not much people playing this anymore, if the people spending the most are the people that care about maximizing their set up, making 10 characters, so they can be 100% efficient, why would you want to mess with them?

Lets not pretend that people only donate from the good of theys hearts, atleast not the people that REALLY donate alot, people donate so they can get the items (wich arent even good in some cases), and the people that cant spend alot in the game can benefit from this accumulating tokens so they can spend in the black friday, that's the hole cicle, why break this?

Im trying not to take this to personal, but this is really hard when the amount o time, money and effort i put in the game is constantly neglected



Lorekeeper -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 16:03:26)

quote:

people donate so they can get the items

And they can still do that.

quote:

and the people that cant spend alot in the game can benefit from this accumulating tokens so they can spend in the black friday, that's the hole cicle, why break this?


The change isn't breaking that. It's making it easier for more people who can't spend a lot to receive tokens. This is therefore the undoing of an unintentional act of neglect, not itself an act of neglect.



Aura Knight -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 16:15:44)

People who do more should get more. The expected standard shouldn't be lowered to accommodate all who do less. I predict this will end up one of the lower total donations for the winter season. I've no interest for fairness if it advantages those who play less while wasting the time of those playing more.



Lorekeeper -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 16:25:24)

No such time wasting is being asked of anyone. We've done away with wasting everyone's time.



Sapphire -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 16:27:23)

Guys, the idea here is if more players get tokens since tokens being donated are divided out to a wider swath of players, then there is a likelihood that more will end up re-donating. The wider swath could potentially result in more overall donations occurring. It's a nice theory, and one with merit. However, it's just a theory and just as likely could result in not much gain, and those who were utilizing the 10 char system to maximize their own gains could simply end up getting way less.

It , then, would be in everyone's best interest to find ways to increase incentives to donate for everyone. If we can both make this account based, and increase overall donations such that those who were using the 10 char system can still get approx the same amount of donations as before, then we have a win for everyone.

I believe simply changing this to account based will not do this. They've changed who wins, because who wins is relative. Those who used the 10 char system have lost with this change in favor of the others winning because I think the result will be some will get less (those with 10 chars) and some will get more. (anyone with less than 10 chars)

I think it's time to modify the incentives to donate to increase the overall donations.



CH4OT1C! -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 16:32:38)

I don't particularly wish to involve myself too heavily, but I do want to clarify a couple of points for everyone involved:

quote:

...Accounts and am now being denied the token chances by 10X times ...

This isn't quite how it pans out in reality. Allow me to demonstrate with a simple hypothetical: Imagine a simplified version of the contest that involves 3 players. Player 1 has 10 characters, Player 2 has 5 characters, and Player 3 only has the one. Under the old system, Players 1 and 2 have 10 and 5 times the chances of receiving donations than Player 3 respectively. If 100,000 Z-Tokens were donated in this hypothetical contest, you'd expect Player 1 to receive 62,500 Z-Tokens (as they own 10/16 total characters involved), Player 2 would receive 31,250 Tokens (as they own 5/16 characters involved) and Player 3 would only receive 6250.

Let's now switch to the new system. At first glance, you'd think that the chances of Player 1 to receive Z-Tokens would decrease tenfold. However, that's not what happens. Each player (account) is equally weighted, worth 1. This means there are 3 total accounts in the contest, with each account getting an even share (33,333 Z-Tokens). Yes, Player 1's share has decreased, but only by about half, not by a factor of 10. Meanwhile, Player 2's share has increased slightly, and Player 3's has increased more than fivefold.

The ratios are obviously going to be different in the real contest. However, the point this example raises is that this change might reduce your chances of receiving a donation by a relative factor of 10, but it doesn't reduce your total share by that amount. This brings me onto the second point: the 'significant reduction in donations'

If you're seeing a notable reduction in the number of donations you're receiving, it demonstrates that there are a number of players that used to have a much smaller chance of getting a donation. They now have the same chance of receiving one as you. It's a sign that the distribution system is more equitable and is having a significant impact.



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