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RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII

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5/27/2012 0:33:58   
Hun Kingq
Member

Calogero, there is more factors to blocking then just a simple equation and when you see that maybe you will understand. Today in 1vs1 and 2vs2 I gave players a run for their money and a couple of level 34 Cyber Hunters affect losing to me several times ran. I am fine with the Blood mage have no passives armors but a good armor like the Delta armor can be a great armor for the non-passive armor classes. If you don't think they take my suggestions into consideration take a look at what I suggested for the new sword and take a look at the stats so for all we know my suggestion for the Delta Armor for the non-passive classes might be get worked on as we type. If I don't know what I am doing as a Blood Mage ask the staff NightWraith what happen in 2 1vs1 battles between the two of us. I won the first one and if I would have used a health booster I would have won the second.

The ND Mallet Guy, they did mention it as thy mentioned no old weapons will get a buff and Alpha and Beta weapons got a buff.

I see that others are having the same views on the multis as well, when I faced NightWraith in 2 1vs1 back to back he had to use max Reflex boost and max multi shot and with my low resistance he only got in the mid 30s. All they had to do was adjust the scaling of Plasma Rain to balance it out so it would not take that much Dex to use it.
Epic  Post #: 551
5/27/2012 0:41:56   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 @hun First off, Weapons=/=skills. They are completely and entirely unrelated to each other and I don't see how Beta or Alpha weapons have anything to do with adding new skills to merc. Secondly, you never seem to give any information other than "Player X had huge dex/tech and a high level Multi skill but only did low damage on Player Y who has small resistance." You still have yet to ever effectively prove anything. You've shown your stats and skill once and only once. You never even bothered showing us the enemies stats or how much damage you did against them. You can't solve a puzzle if you're missing pieces. Thirdly, you're still not answering which staff member helped you find the technology to always block Gamma Bot.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 552
5/27/2012 1:04:46   
khalidon5000
Member

Hun Kingq, Your suggestion for Infernal Slayer:
All stats +9
12 enhancement slots
+44 Damage
Curse : 15% chance Opponent catches fire taking away health and energy and affecting all stats (You didn't mention how, Hun Kingq)

Actual Infernal Slayer:
Strength & Support +6
Dexterity & Technology +9
9 Enhancement Slots
+36 Damage
No Special

:SarcasmON:Yes Hun Kingq, the weapons are practically the same!
I bet they are working on your Delta Knight Armor right now! :SarcasmOFF:

@Depressed Yes, check Page 4 of The Design Notes for May 23rd for proof.
O.o he suggested the same thing again on Page 5 except now he wanted the curse to affect all stats, I don't know how it was supposed to effect the stats.

< Message edited by khalidon5000 -- 5/27/2012 1:28:28 >
Epic  Post #: 553
5/27/2012 1:06:48   
Stabilis
Member

Holy smokes he suggested +44 damage?!
AQ Epic  Post #: 554
5/27/2012 1:45:30   
Arevero
Member

The new weapon, Infernal Slayers goes perfectly well with Tanking builds on CH, i met 5 today already :(

Not saying the weapon is wrong, just the class needs a fix.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 555
5/27/2012 2:50:51   
Renegade Reaper
Member

@rayniedays56 no i don NOT believe that all 34 non variums are easy to beat. HOWEVER, due to the both of us variums being fully enhanced with all varium weapons, and neither of them having enhancements, along with having absolutely no varium equipment at all it makes their chances of winning very low. and yes, SOME non variums have good builds, but a lot of them don't.
another thing that was unfair about that battle is that my partner and i could keep regaining energy, while those mercs couldn't. now, call me crazy, but
that doesn't seem entirely fair to me at all.
to make that battle fair, each side should have had a varium player on it.

now let me be clear, this is not a flame post. I'm just trying to make myself understood.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 556
5/27/2012 3:11:15   
drinde
Member

Now that Tanking is running so rampant, how do you guys say to increasing the minimum DMG to, like, 10 DMG per hit?
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 557
5/27/2012 3:16:25   
rayniedays56
Member

Ok ok. I get your point.

However, I will make myself clear. I am not full varium. I have varium from AExtras, so I cannot easily get it ;)

I am not fully enhanced. I just use weapons that will give me maximum benefits. I had to recently rage for 3 days on AExtras to buy the Delta Knight.


***
On topic.

The new buff to mercs? It is very nice.


I fought a tactical mercenary today who was high strength (the most I have ever seen) he had 26-32 strength with a level 6 Field Commander (i know it is not like blood commander) so his strength was at 32-39+34

I used DEF matrix. He used Azraels borg...

He two hitted my 5 focus/high tech Cyber Hunter.


What I'm saying, people, is that there are reasons so many Cybers go for the tank build... Cause with my tank build I could have survived, I just like to have interesting builds. I don't want an overly used build. But what are we to do with strength spammers?

Not to mention my Defense Matrix lasts 3 turns while his Field Commander lasts 4.


Epic logic, huh?
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 558
5/27/2012 3:20:54   
khalidon5000
Member

^^
I think it lasts for 4 turns because when using a buff like field commander you don't deal any damage on the turn you cast it like you would with any debuff.
BTW Raynie I did the same thing on AExtras for Delta Knight! :P

< Message edited by khalidon5000 -- 5/27/2012 3:22:20 >
Epic  Post #: 559
5/27/2012 3:28:34   
Renegade Reaper
Member

@rayniedays56 i understand how hard it can be for non varium players, as i have several high level non varium characters on my account.

** on topic **
i think that a good way to counter strength builds is to have a system where the more strength you have, the lower your accuracy becomes.
for instance, after 17-21 attack, you begin to have a lower hit rate.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 560
5/27/2012 3:28:39   
drinde
Member

Even so, I still think the problem is the boost that enhancement gives. It is practically a free 30+ Stats, which is like 25% of a person's base stats. So, what if instead of +4 per LV, it gives +6 per level? That way, the enhancement factor would have a less drastic effect in battles.

Also, can there be a system that matches people in 2v2 with their combined STATS, not LV? LV is such a twisted factor, as it doesn't really count towards Stats thanks to the Enhancements.

< Message edited by drinde -- 5/27/2012 3:48:33 >
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 561
5/27/2012 3:37:14   
khalidon5000
Member

There would also have to be a change to agility and focus if that were to happen but I support.^^
Epic  Post #: 562
5/27/2012 6:16:41   
Wootz
Member

Okay, so, I started a project. It includes testing out the Mercenary class as an F2P player all the way with all the builds I can think of. Currently the class is level 7. So here are my opinions:

The first thing I noticed is that the class is a complete disaster at level 1, it barerly offers any offensive, except Double Strike which can be used two times most. If the Energy was 45, it could be used three times and offer some other strategy rather then DS-Heal or DS-DS. Thats all you can do at level 1. The City Guard is Over-Powered at level 1 for the class, and I lost 5 times before I had some luck and beaten him once. At level 2, I just put one point into Bunker Blaster and had some offensive, also I increased the Energy to 45 which offered me nice flexibility. And a few more strategies involving Bunker Blaster and Double Strike. Still, I managed to lose a few at that level. At level 3 I increased Hybrid Armor and every match I got at that level I have won. The class seems to be perfect for that level. From the levels 4-6, the win/lose ratio increased. At level 7 it started to fall down as I couldn't do much againts Bounty Hunters and Mages. And to add on that. The class I see the most are Tech Mages. Bounty Hunters are somewhat in between. Mercenaries seem underpopulated.

Thats it for now,
~Wootz
AQW Epic  Post #: 563
5/27/2012 6:59:46   
Calogero
Member

quote:

Calogero, there is more factors to blocking then just a simple equation and when you see that maybe you will understand


Hmm, Let me think, There is the Dex factor and the Luck factor...
Those increase Block chance, nothing else affects it.

quote:

I am fine with the Blood mage have no passives armors but a good armor like the Delta armor


There you have it, It's a ' Good ' Armor, That's all it needs to be. The Armor is not biased between Passive armor Classes and Non Passive armor Classes.
We can end that discussion allready.

quote:

look at what I suggested for the new sword and take a look at the stats
All stats +9
12 enhancement slots
+44 Damage
Curse : 15% chance Opponent catches fire taking away health and energy and affecting all stats (You didn't mention how, Hun Kingq)

Actual Infernal Slayer:
Strength & Support +6
Dexterity & Technology +9
9 Enhancement Slots
+36 Damage
No Special



You were REALLY close with it , really.

quote:

as a Blood Mage ask the staff NightWraith what happen in 2 1vs1 battles between the two of us.


As the old Law of Internet says, Screen or it didn't happen.

< Message edited by Calogero -- 5/27/2012 7:01:04 >

_____________________________

Having a Signature is too mainstream
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 564
5/27/2012 14:53:54   
Combatoid
Member

Tactical Mercenary Underpowered Personal Reasons-
Since TLM had to have frenzy and stun scaled down since putting them with smoke screen was a too deadly combo, when smoke screen is removed why aren't they scaled back up again?
Or why not add a skill called "Haze" which makes the enemy's block and hit chances go down?
AQW Epic  Post #: 565
5/27/2012 16:45:09   
Ez_Ease
Member

@ Combatoid that sound like a good skill to me. :-)
Epic  Post #: 566
5/27/2012 17:04:15   
liy010
Member

Essay time...

Was meant to be a PM to Trans but he got banned somehow so, yeah...

quote:

Even with medium Tech (enough to cover requirement of Plasma), at Lvl 1 it can take off in high 20s AND you always have it AND it's unblockable. Doesn't matter if you train it or not, but all classes have it at Tier 4, blockable and much harder to progress drain-wise.
It's funny, EMP is NOT a problem for BHs but it is for CHs. Guess why? Plasma Armor perhaps? Don't tell me anything about Energy control, only CHs have it that easy. TLMs you may mention? Atom is blockable and Tier 4 + requires a Maul as well.


Quote from Trans, Page 17, First post.

Is response to

quote:

Is this because Merc has no Energy drain skill? If so, then I request a move like Bunker Buster for CH and BH. You see, CH and BH get EMP, an unblockable Energy skill because, why? It's because they have no instant-damage skill. They have to play slowly and strategically. Just because all the CHs you've seen are Tank build Spammers with a high EMP doesn't mean all CHs are as mindless as that. Energy control is a strategy.


Quote from myself, Page 16, Last post.

Now, lets break this down a bit.

quote:

Atom is blockable and Tier 4 + requires a Maul as well.


Yes, Atom is blockable but it is stronger than EMP Grenade. With 13-16+34 DMG, A Merc can take off 27 EP with a Level 1 Atom. My EMP With just 43 (Enough for PA, so Medium tech)+Like 17 or so from Stat mods give me a total of 26 EP Drain. Atom's Energy requirement is also lowered to 6 which means it is more useful than EMP Grenade, which is made up for my being blockable. As for using a Maul, you might notice that SS doesn't require a Maul, when Massacre does. I think that about evens it out. In the end, In My Opinion, EMP Grenade and Atom are pretty much equal since Atom requires Less Energy and drains more but is blockable while EMP Grenade isn't.

Now, for Tier 4. So, Atom is a Tier 4 skill you say? Well most Mercs have at least 1 Adrenaline which means they can just put 1 point into Atom. The thing with CH is that they have it by default

My suggestion for the CH Skill Tree (Layout stays the same)

Heal-Cheap-PA
DM-Static-EMP
Multi-Malf-Venom
Plasma-Mass-SA


Or better yet,

Heal-Cheap-PA
DM-Static-Plasma
Multi-Malf-Venom
EMP-Mass-SA


Now all CHs have at least 1 point in Malf so Tier 2 or Tier 4 doesn't really make a difference. With the 2nd tree, Plasma Grenade may be used more and maybe Buff Plasma Grenade a bit...? I put PA in Tier 1 because Mercs/TLMs have HA/MA in Tier 1 and there are no complaints about that...DM was moved to Tier 2 because TLMs have BS in Tier 2 (Their Shield) so we should have DM also in Tier 2. EMP is moved to Tier 4 so it can rival Atom.

Now, why is CH OP and TLM not? Heck, some people even say TLM is UP

quote:

Tactical Mercenary Underpowered Personal Reasons-
Since TLM had to have frenzy and stun scaled down since putting them with smoke screen was a too deadly combo, when smoke screen is removed why aren't they scaled back up again?
Or why not add a skill called "Haze" which makes the enemy's block and hit chances go down?


-Both have Passive Armor
-Both have Energy Regain Skill (Actually, I think Reroute is better. You can do the same with a Level 7 Reroute compared to Max but SC has to be Maxed in order to actually do something since the multiple nerfs)
-Both have Energy Drain skill
-CH has debuff (Malf) and TLM has buff (FC)
-Both have Shields (CH has DM and TLM has BS)
-TLM has more powerful Poison

So why is TLM not considered OP but CH is?

@Combatoid nice skill but if I were a TLM, I wouldn't use that skill. First it will require energy and a turn to use and assuming it's a debuff, it would last 3 turns. The thing is, Block and connect chance is dependent on luck and there is a chance that the skill won't do much at all. Sorry but I'd rather not put the faith on a battle onto luck.

Comments are welcome and these are just my opinions. If you have your own, feel free to post ;)

< Message edited by liy010 -- 5/27/2012 17:16:50 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 567
5/27/2012 18:25:53   
D.v.D.
Member

Firstly,I disagree that EMP is weaker then Atom Smasher.

EMP can be increased by stat while Atom increase with club damage( correct me if I'm wrong ).

Secondly, CHs gain more energy in longer battles than a tlm. And,Chs can choose when to use static charge while tlms cannot control energy gain.

With that said, a cyber hunter can steadily regain energy while taking the enemy's.If a ch versus a tlm, the ch can take 40 energy on the first turn while a tlm's atom smasher can be blocked and take no energy at all!

AQ Epic  Post #: 568
5/27/2012 18:29:39   
liy010
Member

Atom increases with STR and I disagree that Reroute is weaker than Static.

Sure, static can gain Energy anytime you want but if you don't want a TLM to gain back Energy, you have to not attack them which means that you will not do any Damage. Also, Static can be blocked while Reroute can't

Atom does increase with Club Damage but as you can see now, we are going to Level 35 which means +35 Weapons will come soon. In 100 years, we might have +200 Weapons since level cap increases by 2 each year and that'll beat EMP by a god load.

Now, 40 EP we're talking about Max EMP there. Personally, I've never seen an EMP over Level 5 and never an Atom Smasher over Level 2 so EMP may be better in the long run, but Atom is better at low levels (I mean the skill) and that's what most people use it at.

< Message edited by liy010 -- 5/27/2012 18:33:01 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 569
5/27/2012 18:34:16   
D.v.D.
Member

^
quote:

Atom Smasher: Smashes an enemy, burning their energy as a % of normal damage.


Weapon Required: Club
Stat Required: None
Level Required: 10
Improves With: None
Warm Up: 0
Cool Down: 2


Oh since you edited the message

A tank Ch can easily reach 40 energy drain

and we are discussing about right now, not one hundred years later,who knows what will happen then?

< Message edited by D.v.D. -- 5/27/2012 18:40:40 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 570
5/27/2012 18:43:37   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 @liy In order for Atom Smasher to be effective a merc must get Strength, Dex, and a good club. Hunters just need Tech. The problem with EMP is that it will never be blocked. If you fight an enemy relying on a skill to beat you, then you will never lose because the EMP will never miss. The merc on the other hand will end up losing from time to time, and sometimes even when he does hit because Atom Smasher has a range of energy it can drain. The difference in drain is small. Too small to make up for the blockable nature of AS, even if it is cheaper by a few energy.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 571
5/27/2012 18:57:06   
liy010
Member

Ok, so if EMP was blockable then would CH be UP? Since that would make EMP be on par with Atom and since TLMs are now called "UP" or average but never OP

Heal-Cheap-PA
DM-Static-EMP
Multi-Malf-Venom
Plasma-Mass-SA


Or

Heal-Cheap-PA
DM-Static-Plasma
Multi-Malf-Venom
EMP-Mass-SA


Comments?
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 572
5/27/2012 19:06:15   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 @liy It's not that CHs are OPd because of EMP. It's just that EMP in general is OPd. Especially when paired with the ability to regain the energy to reuse it while hiding behind a passive armor. To get through the high defenses one would use high damage skills but without energy to use those then you can't get as much damage in. Energy is a powerful stat in this game. The ability to remove it from a build is fatal in almost every situation. Even Reroute can fall to it because it takes health away to replenish that energy and by then it may already be too late. Placing it higher on the Tier tree doesn't really stop the fact that it's by far the most useful energy drain in-game.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 573
5/27/2012 19:09:59   
Stabilis
Member

The chance to fail for EMP is not a balancing option because it does not weaken the skill. PVP only becomes more lucky... chanced. One does not simply scheme behind seemingly tactics.
AQ Epic  Post #: 574
5/27/2012 19:20:02   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 @void And how is a block chance for both Atom Smasher and Assimilation any different than a failure rate for EMP? One does not simply scheme when their entire build is destroyed each time someone uses EMP and drains their energy.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 575
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