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RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII

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5/30/2012 3:11:15   
PivotalDisorder
Member

feel free to edit it out now if you like ^^

Yeah he said they wouldn't stack.

so who said passives are being revamped?
Post #: 651
5/30/2012 3:38:33   
Nub Apocalypse
Member

I want to suggest replacing EMP Grenade from Cyber Hunter for something else. Right now, the Cyber Hunter builds are incredibly hard to defeat and the only type of build which stands even a minute chance are tanks, which are easily crippled with EMP from any experienced player. Most people who are CH and lose to tanks lack the experience to actually efficiently use EMP in battles, only ever using the standard malf, massacre, heal. The more experienced players know exactly how OP this skill is, knowing when to sacrifice using a heal or massacre in order to cripple their opponents with EMP.
Post #: 652
5/30/2012 9:06:55   
ScarletReaper
Member

^We already know this. Most of this discussion thread is about that very thing. We have discussed moving it to teir 2 or 3, making it static so it improves with nothing, lowering stat progression, and replacing it. Do you have any idea what we should replace it with?

_____________________________
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 653
5/30/2012 13:51:16   
Wootz
Member

God damnit. -.-
Why can't there be a page without discussing Cyber Hunters.
Want a EMP Grenade replacment, here! I got this is 20 secounds of thinking!

Static Discharge:
A charged attack taking your opponents Energy.
Energy Cost: 0
Weapon Required: None
Stat Required: 16 Technology at level 1 (+2 per skill level) ; 34 Technology at Max
Improvments: Technology
Level/Percentage
Level 1: 15%
Level 2: 17%
Level 3: 19%
Level 4: 21%
Level 5: 23%
Level 6: 25%
Level 7: 26%
Level 8: 27%
Level 9: 28%
Level 10:29%
If you already didn't notice it is the exactly the same thing as Static Charge, but it takes away your opponents Energy and it doesn't regen yours. There. It can be blocked, its weak as hell. And it costs nothing because of it. Happy?!
AQW Epic  Post #: 654
5/30/2012 16:08:22   
Combatoid
Member

^liy010
Looks good to me ;)
AQW Epic  Post #: 655
5/30/2012 17:10:45   
liy010
Member

quote:

Based off Combatoid's skill and whoever said this before on Balance thread, Credits to you


Yes, I did have Trans' skill in mind. Credits and thanks to you, Trans ;)

Get unbanned soon >.>
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 656
5/30/2012 17:13:22   
Wootz
Member

First off,
Can't wait for Trans to get unbanned.

Secondly,
what are you two talking about? xd
AQW Epic  Post #: 657
5/30/2012 17:31:10   
liy010
Member

@Above me and Joe?
I like Static Discharge :3

With Static Discharge, Cybers will be...

Malf, Static Charge, Static Discharge, Mass >.>
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 658
5/30/2012 17:40:45   
Stabilis
Member

I want to see some new ideas, more so than something practical. Ideas that share similar themes are likely to have the same benefits and same faults making them predictable. Before the Bio Borg was in production, myself mainly and few other supporters requested the concept of damage reflection. The idea was initially a skill suggestion for Cyber Hunters, but became an experimental precept for the developers. If they have rated the concept positively it may by chance become a future skill tree implementation.
AQ Epic  Post #: 659
5/30/2012 17:44:59   
King Helios
Member

New Tactical Skill Tree!

Heal - Double - Mineral
Maul - Erosion - Field Comm.
ReRoute - Frenzy - Multi
Surgical - Atom- Toxic

Toxic Grenade: -1 Poison Damage on all levels, so -12 at max. Requires a club.

Frenzy: New calculation (See last page). 35% at Level 1, scaling same. Now requires no weapon.

Erosion: Takes an amount from your foe's Energy. No stat/weapon required.

Level 1: 12 Energy, -1 Def/Res.
Level 2: 15 Energy, -2 Def/Res.
Level 3: 18 Energy, -3 Def, -2 Res.
Level 4: 21 Energy, -3 Def/Res.
Level 5: 24 Energy, -4 Def, -3 Res.
Level 6: 27 Energy, -4 Def/Res.
Level 7: 30 Energy, -5 Def, -4 Res.
Level 8: 33 Energy, -5 Def/Res.
Level 9: 35 energy, -6 Def, -5 Res.
Level 10 (MAX): 36 Energy, -6 Def/Res.
AQ MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 660
5/30/2012 18:05:30   
Wootz
Member

quote:

@Above me and Joe?
I like Static Discharge :3

With Static Discharge, Cybers will be...

Malf, Static Charge, Static Discharge, Mass >.>

Lol, thanks. It was seriously 20 seconds of thinking. Hahah, true that. Every Strenght oriented Cyber Hunter would use that. xD

quote:

I want to see some new ideas, more so than something practical. Ideas that share similar themes are likely to have the same benefits and same faults making them predictable. Before the Bio Borg was in production, myself mainly and few other supporters requested the concept of damage reflection. The idea was initially a skill suggestion for Cyber Hunters, but became an experimental precept for the developers. If they have rated the concept positively it may by chance become a future skill tree implementation.

Ideas about what?

quote:

Erosion: Takes an amount from your foe's Energy. No stat/weapon required.

Level 1: 12 Energy, -1 Def/Res.
Level 2: 15 Energy, -2 Def/Res.
Level 3: 18 Energy, -3 Def, -2 Res.
Level 4: 21 Energy, -3 Def/Res.
Level 5: 24 Energy, -4 Def, -3 Res.
Level 6: 27 Energy, -4 Def/Res.
Level 7: 30 Energy, -5 Def, -4 Res.
Level 8: 33 Energy, -5 Def/Res.
Level 9: 35 energy, -6 Def, -5 Res.
Level 10 (MAX): 36 Energy, -6 Def/Res.

What did you want to do with the -Def/Res? I don't understand that part quite well.
The Energy drain seems fair.
AQW Epic  Post #: 661
5/30/2012 18:44:31   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 @duel The ability to negate Hybrid Armor and take away over half of 90% of builds' energy at the level cap is probably OP'd. Even if it were blockable that would be quite OPd still. And why do you still have Atom Smasher on the skill tree if you have Erosion?
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 662
5/30/2012 18:46:37   
Wootz
Member

Hey dudes and dudettes.
I just chatted with Veneeria about the Cyber Hunters. And we got some ideas to get the class rolling for both the people who want this skill out and people who don't want that skill out and so on and so on.

We started talking about the game when it has Personal shield, Diamond Blades, 11 hit Massacre, etc. and we got to some ideas for the class:
  • Remove Plasma Armor
  • Put Technician in Plasma Armors position
  • Trade Cheap Shot for Diamond Blades
  • Trade Multi-Shot for a Caster/Melee/Gun stun skill (Stun arms! Likey the name?*)

    Thats the idea. Here's the explanation:
    Plasma Armor is by far one of the skill that most Cyber Hunters want out of the skill tree and so do we! So thats why we got you covered with Diamond Blades! The skill is perfect for the class to have a great damage output. And it will works great because we don't have a passive Health regen based on the damage we make, so it cannot be Over-Powered!
    Some people want Static Charge to be buffed back to its original power (55%), but now it does not! Because if we put Diamond Blades we will get some more damage which will mean a higher Energy regen and it will still have a block chance, so it won't be Over-Powered!
    A lot of people have suggested Technician over Plasma Armor and we agreed for it, aswell. It provides a boost to Technology, boosting a few of our skills and boosting our Resistance. And it increases with Dexterity which every "better" Cyber Hunter likes to have plenty of.
    Why should all the classes have a multi skill? It isn't really that necessary, for one, it would make us stand out of the crowd more and provide some interesting strategies in Team battles. The class can have a "Stun lock", a.k.a. two skills which could stun, and the other one could improve with Dexterity. Hell, replace Multi Shot with Stun Grenade!
    Cheap Shot is just a blah, so replacing it with Diamond Blades is a good decision, it will give a nice little boost to the lower levels of the class and still allow the class to have a decent chance of winning on lower levels.

    Just to clarify one more thing. Giving Diamond Blades to the class will not make it Over-Powered. With the loss of the passive shield we'd have to spend more points into Technology and thus balance our builds in order to actually survive. Yes, it would affect Massacre, Static Charge, but all of that can be countered with good defenses, Dexterity, shields and strategy. So it isn't really that big of a deal. It doesn't create a hole in the system so the class will become immediatly Over-Powered and if you find a way to trash this that its Over-Powered, I'd be glad to hear the reason why. Because we couldn't find anything for it to be Over-Powered.

    Thanks for reading, hoping to hear your response!
    ~Wootz & Veneeria

    *blame Veneeria for the name
    • AQW Epic  Post #: 663
    5/30/2012 18:57:59   
    King Helios
    Member

    		ND Mallet, I mean it costs that amount of energy. Drains EP according to skill level, so Level 1 would take 1 energy, Level 2 2 energy, etc.
    AQ MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 664
    5/30/2012 18:58:16   
    ND Mallet
    Legendary AK!!!


    		 Why are we suggesting to add a Deadly Aim for Primary weapons(one that can be used every turn) on a class with Malfunction when we're complaining about BMs having Deadly Aim, which has a 2 turn cooldown and no Malfunction, Smokescreen or FC to improve it? If you don't want Strength Abuse(or the general class to become broken) then why are we suggesting adding a skill that will heavily promote such a build?
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 665
    5/30/2012 19:02:33   
    veneeria
    Member

    		@The ND Mallet Guy: Kinda thought about that. It doesn't have to be like deadly aim (perhaps less % ?) and didn't have an idea that some people didn't want deadly aim on the blood mages. (but i see mages are alright and they haven't got blood lust like cyber hunters?)
    The passive might also come with a couple of stat req and a less % like i said before.

    < Message edited by veneeria -- 5/30/2012 19:03:58 >
    AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 666
    5/30/2012 19:07:31   
    ND Mallet
    Legendary AK!!!


    		 @veneeria Even at 10%(the lowest you can go and be reasonable) you get 4 extra damage for any weapon 31+ damage. Over the course of the average battle(4 turns) that's an extra 16 damage. That's easily quite a bit and considering Str CHs are already a problem as it is, this would make them even more so. The stat requirements aren't going to stop the abuse too much. Requirements have to be made in such a way that lower level players can still use the skill(so nothing like 40+ for lvl 1 requirements).

    Edit: I actually have a video showing how effective requirements can be in the worst case scenario. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3lxBBU81U8

    < Message edited by The ND Mallet Guy -- 5/30/2012 19:10:52 >
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 667
    5/30/2012 19:17:42   
    veneeria
    Member

    		Though, their risks are now higher too. It does make them strong but not stronger or worse than what they were or close to be op.
    And having 10% at a level 10 skill is also really.. but really "ugh" (in which also got stat req)
    AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 668
    5/30/2012 19:27:08   
    ND Mallet
    Legendary AK!!!


    		 @ven When have Str builds ever cared about defenses or damage they take? Every strength build I've fought with or against had little to no care for defenses. If they care about lasting long enough to kill then they add Health. This would be no different in any way. If anything, it would probably be worse. And you can't forget that CH's have Cheap Shot, Massacre as well as Venom Strike to go with their strength build. The only thing stopping it from being a BH is the lack of a health regain in return for a passive that increases their damage.
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 669
    5/30/2012 19:40:51   
    veneeria
    Member

    		@The ND Mallet Guy: Yeah, got your point there with the defences. Although cheap shot is the skill in which will be replaced with Diamond blades. Poison isn't really mixed well with str builds, even though it was in the past( plus goes against the whole fast kill thing).
    Massacre is indeed an issue, I wonder if it is possible that the passive actives an backfire each time used with massacre (self damage?).
    AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 670
    5/30/2012 19:49:25   
    ND Mallet
    Legendary AK!!!


    		 @ven Even if it did do self damage the chances are that it would be pointless. I can not recall the last time I lived after a Massacre from a Str build. Poison build can still be easily abused since it's a constant 33 damage every time(considering people actually use 95 health that's a pretty large number). And then you add on an extra 16 damage from DB and you have over half health from just DB and Poison.
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 671
    5/30/2012 19:53:06   
    Arath
    Member

    		people who use offense build always rage before the one who is defending.
    especially players who use super power moves like super charge and massacre.
    not many can survive the two-pronged attack and i suggest that rage should be nerved for them.
    Post #: 672
    5/30/2012 19:54:24   
    veneeria
    Member

    		@The ND Mallet Guy: Well, then that must be only you.. I keep seeing people with over 110 health points and I pretty much survive massacres. Having low defences are still penalized a lot on my side, specially with tech being a stat in which now improves deflect rate. From what poison was for anyone with low hp to now, wouldn't change much lol.

    Edit @Arath: nice point ... specials improving rage kinda is a key factor for them to be strong.

    < Message edited by veneeria -- 5/30/2012 19:55:28 >
    AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 673
    5/30/2012 20:38:04   
    Hun Kingq
    Member

    		Wow coming up with an energy draining skill that can be blocked for the Cyber Hunters is a fantastic idea but one major problem they are rarely blocked. Take Cheap shot it is suppose to be blockable but really how often do you see it blocked so that energy stealing skill would be basically another unblockable skill.

    Moving EMP to a different place on the skill tree would not solve the problem either because they would still be able to take away 20+ energy 2,3, or 4 times in one match, Atom smasher is no different. I have been targeting these two high energy draining skills a lot longer than anyone here because when I was a tech mage I found that the amount of energy EMP and Atom smasher takes is just not right. Now that I am a Blood Mage without energy regain and have to put majority of points into energy just in case of energy drain is beyond not right but unfair and unbalanced, two classes could take away high amounts of energy and regain energy is just not balanced.

    So Hunters you have brought this upon yourself especially in 2vs2 I rarely see you doing multiple EMPs on your own class and very few of you don't want to take out the Hunter first. Why would you want to leave the player standing that has malfunction and regain energy over and over again and gain a good amount of damage if static charge is not blocked and that is often with the non Hunter Class?
    Epic  Post #: 674
    5/30/2012 20:52:20   
    liy010
    Member

    quote:

    So Hunters you have brought this upon yourself especially in 2vs2 I rarely see you doing multiple EMPs on your own class and very few of you don't want to take out the Hunter first. Why would you want to leave the player standing that has malfunction and regain energy over and over again and gain a good amount of damage if static charge is not blocked and that is often with the non Hunter Class?


    What are you trying to say Here?

    I almost always EMP a Bounty Hunter in 2vs2 and I even EMP Cybers at times. The reason we don't EMP loop is because most of the time, by the time out EMP cools down, the BH already ran out of EP...No point in EMPing then. Now for Cybers. Cybers can regain Energy ever 2 turns so there's not much point in EMPing them.

    Look at this scenario

    Cyber with 47 EP ( Level 5 Heal-Loop Tank build)
    EMP takes off say...High 20s...29...Left with 18 EP
    Cyber uses Static Charge (At say 30 EP now)
    Strike (Cyber is almost dead)
    Heals...
    They're going to heal anyway so why not just let them?

    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 675
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