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RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII

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5/6/2012 17:19:18   
Ranloth
Banned


 Yes I am a Tech Mage but Multi is fine. It's a 2v2 skill, not meant to be used for 1v1 hence it's weaker than Plasma Bolt. Its total damage is higher than Bolt because it hits TWO enemies, not ONE. Simple as.
Support + Artilery + Aux, with our Dex we get Blocking + Defence + Multi. This averages out if not makes Dex superior because Defence = HP (less damage you take, less HP is taken away) while they get damage only. 2 damage difference at 111 Dex and Support, Pivotal gave you the proof. That damage difference is justified by stat progression as well as how useful the stats are. But up a Shield or get better Dex and you'll protect yourself against Artillery, just like others do for our Plasma Rain yet I don't see TMs complaining about it. >.> <.<

It's funny how you're allowed to share our views and argue at whatever point we make if we want to disagree with you, but you yet don't allow US to give our view on Support without ever having a go with it? Tell me how useful it is for BMs, then go for BHs, then go for TMs, then CHs, and lastly Mercenaries - tell me how well it competes against other stats. Tell me what you can do with high Support and neglection of other stats, to win and compete as fairly as other classes. You have NO experience of Support build as any class, at least it doesn't seem like it. I have personally tried Support TM, Support Merc, Support TLM and somewhat Support BH, but it does NOT work as well anymore. Why? Deflection is in Tech, Heal is fixed, we have left no more than few skills that may not be as useful.
Heal wasn't nerf to Support? M'kay. Deflection going to Tech wasn't a nerf either? Sorry but it was. We had an effect taken away from the stat, this IS a nerf. It's like saying - taking Defence away from Dex isn't a nerf. Well obviously it is as you lost something with no return. Devs promised us Support buff, don't go justifying that it doesn't need a buff if you see 2v2 Mercs and TLMs using Multi and making biased assumption on how they are strong and neglect all the other classes. Go on with YOUR Support build as a BM and tell me how it works out. Play that build for months, literally, and tell me how it goes. I have experience of Support TM of almost a year if not more, don't go saying how we are stupid, especially Mercs who apparently cannot make decent builds as you said before and hence why we suck, because you have no experience of given class. Mercs are most creative class by far, perhaps that's killing you? Fact someone with brain has a way around brainless build. Fact you might've been killed once or two by creativeness doesn't mean it's wrong. This game is NOT "One build to rule them all." - time to learn that quote.

Also Delta Armor needs NO change for classes without passive Armor. We don't want it, we don't need it. I may as well as speak for whole BH, TM and BM community that disagrees with it. We have other skills to substitute for Passive Armor therefore we need no buff. Yes I'm disagreeing with your opinion but give an explanation, please for ONCE be open for a feedback, even if negative.
AQ Epic  Post #: 101
5/6/2012 17:22:55   
Calogero
Member

you are clearly biased toward the classes that don't have passive defences...

You forget 1 BIG thing, Those that have passive defences, they don't have Passive energy regain, or a passive health regain, or a passive Gun damage boost...

If you want higher defences, go use the class that has a passive defence otherwise try and stop complaining.

Just like your HELO Idea or any other of your OP or undeserved suggestions, I do not want any of your suggetions implended

< Message edited by andy123 -- 5/6/2012 17:25:03 >

_____________________________

Having a Signature is too mainstream
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 102
5/6/2012 17:24:18   
Rarest
Member

Trans, may I ask what setup you use?
AQW  Post #: 103
5/6/2012 17:25:44   
Ranloth
Banned


 For my TM?
5-1-1
1-1-M
0-7-M
0-0-0
My Dex TM build. Technican gives +38 Tech with my Dex so I can always do Tech + Plasma Bolt combo as it's cheaper and good for Rage (helps if EMP'ed as well).
AQ Epic  Post #: 104
5/6/2012 17:27:12   
Rarest
Member

Hm. Just asking, I'm messing around with TM. Not sure what fits me best.
AQW  Post #: 105
5/6/2012 17:28:11   
King Helios
Member

Andy,
TLM: Passive Armor + Reroute.

I agree with everything else.
AQ MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 106
5/6/2012 17:31:48   
Rarest
Member

Is it a 2v2 build, Trans?
AQW  Post #: 107
5/6/2012 17:31:54   
Calogero
Member

@ Duel

But they don't have Health Regain or Damage boost to guns...

According to Hun's view and if I have to work on his logic,

Guns would need higher base damage for the classes that don't have Deadly Aim
Classes need more Energy for those that don't have energy regain...

and so on and so on.

Only thing that needs a fix is the EMP on CyberHunter, eather put it back at Tier 2 or make it a Tier 4 skill and put Energy Grenade at tier 1...

< Message edited by andy123 -- 5/6/2012 17:33:27 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 108
5/6/2012 17:36:11   
Ranloth
Banned


 Yeah it is 2v2 build. ^^ I sent you PM, so carry on there. :)

@andy
And to add to this: no HP regen, no damage boost to Guns (DA) and no debuffer. None, even Intimidate.
AQ Epic  Post #: 109
5/6/2012 17:36:42   
King Helios
Member

^If, as you suggested Hun Kingq suggested, guns had more damage in classes without DA, than DA would be irrelevent.
AQ MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 110
5/6/2012 17:39:29   
Calogero
Member

well Dual

isn't that what Hun is suggesting with his ' Non Passive Defense classes need more Armor Defenses than those that have Passive Defenses ' ??
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 111
5/6/2012 17:40:42   
King Helios
Member

Yep, exactly what I was hinting at.
AQ MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 112
5/6/2012 17:50:42   
Stabilis
Member

quote:

so as a challenge to programming staff put in the Delta Armor program the code where it gives +8 defense +8 resistance to the classes without passive armors, let us see how good you are


If they read that I'm sure they would be bawling in laughter. Testify their skills in Flash? What is this, court? Bounty Hunter has Bloodlust and Shadow Arts, Tech Mage for Reroute and Deadly Aim, and Blood Mage for Bloodlust and Deadly Aim. Those skills are as relevant as armours for power.

If you do not wish to have such a class without armour skills, switch class, it only costs 900 varium so why not? Otherwise, no, the staff will not reward an individual just because. I recommend training your speechcraft level, the peddlers have caught you trying to steal.
AQ Epic  Post #: 113
5/6/2012 17:52:17   
Ez_Ease
Member

I do not think that any move should be a one shot use,
because they were successful in using it, they should be penalize
by not allowing it again. You clearly ignored what on poster said
a person can use a booster to restore that which was taken from them.
I like that you have an opinion and the conviction to stand behind it,
but no one is right about all thing all the time. You come across as
narrow minded.

Should a person who uses a move that failed still keep there energy since it did not work?
That would be fair if I am only allowed to use a move once. I do not know you personally Hun
but everything is about advantage disadvantage, no ambush predator will run up to its prey
and say hey I am going to attack you in a few moments so get ready. :-) It will always come down
to tactics and who uses their brain. That is where you try and turn a bad situation into a good one.
Even if you get ambushed. Have a great day!
Epic  Post #: 114
5/6/2012 19:13:47   
Hun Kingq
Member

Trans, when Plasma rain was improve by tech I did a comparison with a player that had the same level tech and Plasma bolt at max was higher than Plasma Rain at max. When I was a tech mage I did support builds and many other builds I have been in 2vs2 battles far long then you can imagine, matter of fact I am at 5987 wins closing on 6000. I just recently seem both tact merc and regular merc support builds in action they both got critical damage on aux and artillery strike and with both we won the matches. Things were moved away from support but support itself was never nerfed. If Plasma Rain improved with support then yes I would try out high support only thing I would have is Aux that improves with support not like the tech mage that has malfunction and support build would work for them more in 1vs1 than 2vs2. It is quite clear you and others lack understanding of my suggestion with the Delta Armor and want to keep the unfair Advantage in place. The classes with Passive armors do they need high stats to get defense, resistance or both, no they don’t, so they could have low dex or tech and get adequate protection while pouring points in any stat they choose. You can give any view you want on support but I would not attack or degrade you as you did to me in you last post and everyone was warned of those attacks.

andy123, you know that have an armor with points on defense and resistance was my idea so as you can see my ideas are taken into consideration and you might not see them in Delta Phase but might see them in the next phase. Only one that has neither health or energy regain is the merc class but with the Delta Armor they would have a total of +12 defense and resistance there lies the unfair advantage to the classes without passive Armors, do you and others not understand that? The tact merc and regular merc has field commander which boost strength, that increases the damage of the primary and the sidearm while Deadly Aim just increases damage of the side arm. When I am speaking about armor, it is only about armor and armor is to provide adequate protection and should not give one class more of an advantage over any other classes. Like the one player posting here a level 34 with nothing but Beta gear, he has the unfair advantage over other players of not only other level 34s but also a huge unfair advantage because his weapons all has 10 slots with no requirements. Just moving EMP to another place on the skill tree will not stop the multiple use in a recent 2vs2 I was Emped not once but 4 times, yes people 4 times by two different players in one match by Cyber hunters that has malfunction, Delta Armors, Plasma armors and static charge at max they had very low resistance so damage from energy attacks was basically nonexistence while I have the Delta Armor I have to pour a lot of points into dex and tech to survive the attacks so tell me there is not and unfair advantage of the classes with passive/delta armors over the classes with just passive armors.

Depressed Void, programmers need to be challenge now and then just to keep them on their toes, A player wrote that they would be able to do that adjustment without going back to the old system so I say they should prove that player wrong and accept my challenge. If they accept then good but eventually they will see that there is an unfair advantage of the classes with Passive/Delta armors over the classes with just Delta Armors, especially when they increase the Level cap to 35, and they need to do something now instead of later. Which would you rather see nerf passive armors to oblivion or make the necessary adjustments on the Delta armor.

Ez_Ease, the Blood Mage, merc, or bounty Hunter has no energy regain in the last match I used two boosters I got EMPed 4 times. So here I am wasting credits on boosters while the Cyber hunters waste no credits. They want the mage classes to start using skills instead of just weapons but if nothing is done about the excessive energy drain attacks then the mage classes plus any other class will resort back to using just weapons and not even bother with skills any more, When they have so much protection you can’t turn a bad situation into a good one, it just gets worse.
Epic  Post #: 115
5/6/2012 19:33:07   
Ranloth
Banned


 Just shows how ignorant you are Hun. Missed totally ALL of our views just to show how you're above us, it's pathethic how you don't read our posts which are right and think you are right. This is not a discussion anymore, this is posting your biased views in rather rude and pathethic manner.
Challenge Staff? What for? I ask YOU to change the engine to support Mutating items having different stats. It's not possible for now, I dare you to code it yourself and see how "easy" it apparently is. Who are you to challenge Devs? They do it already, in small steps but they did so in the past. Juggernaut mode is an example of a big challenge in the past. NO ONE wants buff to Delta Armor, because we have another passives to substitute for the power of passive Armors. Unfair advantage? What are you on about? DO YOU EVEN READ OUR POSTS?! <_< >_>
quote:

It is quite clear you and others lack understanding of my suggestion with the Delta Armor and want to keep the unfair Advantage in place.

Literally facepalmed here, ultra facepalm if I may add. Unfair advantage.. Funny story, fact it'd be a buff to me is called unfair advantage. Think about how you word things? <.< Actually yes it's unfair advantage to BMs, TMs and BHs. If that's what you meant, I agree. ;)
Mind that, Ashari will discuss possible change to all passives but isn't confirmed such a revamp will happen as of now, shows how much you read our posts and Staff's themself. But you're right apparently.

Sure Mercs get more Crits on their Multi, for God's sake Support improves Critical chance. You failed to grasp basic logic of the game already, that was known back in Alpha even that Support affects your Critical chance. /facepalm
I will tell you one thing, evolved Classes will get new Multis and as far as I know, one for BMs will improve with Support. This should please you enough if you rant about Mercs. You cannot go against that, if you say Support is balanced, Mercs have advantage because of Support, then BMs are fine with Support Multi which will come in the future.
quote:

You can give any view you want on support but I would not attack or degrade you as you did to me in you last post and everyone was warned of those attacks.

/ultrafacepalm Last time we mentioned Support is quite UP stat, you 'walked' over us saying how it's balanced/strong compared to other stats..
AQ Epic  Post #: 116
5/6/2012 19:36:19   
Joe10112
Member

Meh, I guess it's just me rooting for Technician back.

Gahh I still don't get why not.

I faced a epic-dex Tech Mage. He had level 10 Technician. Gave +70 Technology. How many resistance points is that? Plus, it turned his level 1 Plasma Bolt into a monster. I swear it was like 60 damage AT LEVEL 1 WITH TECHNICIAN! And you guys say it don't give enough resistance??? It gives way more than enough resistance, AND gives you "deflection insurace" or whatever.

The only reason I'm saying this, is because

A) Hunters don't work well with "armors" such as Mineral/Plasma. They need a boost (Reflex/Technician).
Also, in general, grenades need to be buffed in general. Just do it, no argue,.
Thirdly, I defend my reasoning for changing multi-shot to improve with Tech, or replace it with new skill that improves with Tech, because then we are actually Cyber Hunters, in which we use TECH a lot more, rather than BH, who use DEX. This way, we are able to have Technician->(Multi-Shot Tech Style)->Plasma Grenade, while Bounties have Reflex Boost->Multi-Shot->Stun Grenade.

So yeah, that's the reasoning that led me to come up with these changes. Oh, and buff Shadow Arts too, will you? Too much luck, but if it also gave a passive chance to connect...

Move Venom Strike to where Plasma Grenade is, and buff Venom Strike to be at least on par with Toxic Grenade.

Okay my mouthload of suggestions are over. Feel free to rip them apart nao :D
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 117
5/6/2012 19:43:31   
Ranloth
Banned


 @Joe
My 122 Dex gives me +38 at Lvl 1, quite strong if you ask me. ;) With Plasma Bolt, heaven for cheap rage attack that is strong at Lvl 1 only. :3
According to Thylek's sheet, Overload and Stun Grenades are already on par with power. Although Overload is Tier 2 whilst other are Tier 3 so small buff for Tier 3 versions could be good and Tier 2 Stun Grenade (owned by TLMs) could stay the way it is now. Remember Stun costs some damage so it'll always deal less than pure damaging skill. :)
There are new Multis planned for all evolved Classes at some point so possibility is that you will get Tech-based Multi but that's to see. :P
Shadow Arts and passive chance to Connect? I suggested that too, it's a good idea for both Hunter classes as it helps the synergy with BL for BHs and SC for CHs. :D
Venom Strike is already strong as it is but what ticks me off is fact Grenade is unblockable as opposed to Venom. It deals just 25% damage but either way, it could be made unblockable. Hence it dleas 70% strike damage and has lower Poison is fact Toxic has 25% damage and a bit more Poison. It's just the unblockable thing.

Nothing to disagree with really. :P
AQ Epic  Post #: 118
5/6/2012 20:01:42   
Joe10112
Member

I mean, Venom is blockable, and does 2 less poison-damage-per-turn.
If I remember correctly, apparently Toxic Grenade is 60% base damage, Venom is 70%.
So in respect, I'm trading a 10% increase in damage (maybe a few extra damage points, like perhaps 3-4), for 6 less poison-unblockable damage, and a chance at being blocked? Yeah, needs a buff IMO.

And yeah, Trans as a TM, gets +38 at level 1? That's pretty high! Even with average dex, a mid-high level Technician will still give you more RES points than Plasma Armor, and will buff your Technology. And are you sure Overload and the Grenades are on Par? It might just be that Overload is a Tier 2 skill, and Stun Nade is Tier 3, while poor Plasma Nade is Tier 4.

Tech-Based Multi I feel would be much more "in the feel" of Cyber Hunters. I'll just wait on that. Shadow Arts needs to be improved. It's doing fairly little, I thought it gave +chance to resist stun but I was wrong, it gave +chance to stun, but almost no one uses the stun/plasma grenades in BH/CH. So therefore, since SA is 'bout dat luck, why not pile some more luck into it, by having bonus chance to connect? Now it has bonus chance to block and to connect, so I'd assume more people would be using it (Blood Lust and Static Charge).

AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 119
5/6/2012 20:10:44   
Mr. Black OP
Member

@hun
Should my gun get more damage because I don't have DA? Should I get more health because I don't have BL? Because that is what you are basically saying.
Epic  Post #: 120
5/6/2012 20:20:27   
Ranloth
Banned


 @Joe
"Poisons the enemy over time (3 turns) and inflicts initial 25% of the primary weapon damage as Physical damage." - from Wiki. But it's unblockable as opposed to Venom which doeals 70% damage, less Poison and blockable. So Venom should've been made unblockable at least or make it on par with Toxic and leave blockable. Good idea? :3
Yea, they are on par but Tiering is the problem here. Overload, tier 2, is stronger than Stun Grenades, tier 3, so on par damage-wise but shouldn't be. That's my point. ^^
Yes +38 is high at Lvl 1, but 122 Dex is also quite a bit as my weapon damage isn't great, only Aux is good so I suffer a lot from it. Average for me with good weapon damage is around 100 Dex but that's still at least +32-34 Tech at Lvl 1. Depends on how you use it simply. :)
Sure it does feel more in feel of CHs, Tech-based Multi, but we will get the new Multis for evolved Classes so let's just wait until Devs are ready to announce them whenever because they are 3 new skills, there are other priorities, so expect it to appear in quite a while. xP
AQ Epic  Post #: 121
5/6/2012 20:28:14   
Stabilis
Member

quote:

And you guys say it don't give enough resistance???


@Joe,

Right now I am uploading a really interesting video, but I will show you how Technician may not be suitable for Cyber Hunters.

quote:

Technician: Improves technology of any allied character during combat. Improves with dexterity.

Energy Required:
Level 1: 9
Level 2: 10
Level 3: 11
Level 4: 12
Level 5: 13
Level 6: 14
Level 7: 15
Level 8: 16
Level 9: 17
Level 10: 18
Weapon Required: None
Stat Required: None
Level Required: 2
Improves With: Dexterity (+1 Technology gained at 22 Dexterity; +1 Technology gained per 4 Dexterity after)
Warm Up: 0
Cool Down: 1


Decay Levels:

1→2: +3
2→3: +3
3→4: +3
4→5: +2
5→6: +2
6→7: +2
7→8: +2
8→9: +2
9→10: +2

Without statting Dexterity, level 10 Technician gives a maximum of 21 Technology. 21 Technology is approximately 6 Resistance.

Dexterity Levels:
20 DEX: +9
30 DEX: +12
40 DEX: +14
50 DEX: +17
60 DEX: +19
70 DEX: +22
80 DEX: +25
90 DEX: +27
100 DEX: +30
120 DEX: +32
130 DEX: +35
140 DEX: +37
150 DEX: +40
160 DEX: +42
170 DEX: +45
180 DEX: +47
190 DEX: +50
200 DEX: +52

+ Level Scaling

Choose your poison, the higher the Dexterity, the lesser the Strength that is required in the calculations of Static Charge.

I prefer Energy Shield, more Resistance for less sacrifice.

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 5/6/2012 20:33:36 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 122
5/6/2012 20:31:29   
Mr. Black OP
Member

People seem to complain about EMP on CH, so why not make assimilate useable with any weapon and give it to CH in place of emp.
This also slightly buffs TM that don't use high dexterity or technology builds.
Epic  Post #: 123
5/6/2012 21:12:44   
ScarletReaper
Member

I really can't wait till we get our unique super moves. It'll help make the evolved classes not seem like they are 90 percent borrowed, but more like their own class.

< Message edited by ScarletReaper -- 5/6/2012 21:13:00 >

_____________________________
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 124
5/6/2012 23:31:44   
Hun Kingq
Member

zman 2, you’re a level 34 Cyber hunter so if you want more side arm damage they use an energy based weapon with high strength and high malfunction. If you want more health then retrain you could get as much health as you want, 23% at max for Blood Lust is a joke, there are only a few things that gives high damage only with high stats and that is why the mage class has Deadly Aim. I am talking about the armor and how protection wise, again protection wise should I repeat that the ones with passive armor have the unfair advantage just likes players with all Betas or Alpha weapons.

Trans, I mentioned those three classes every time but you and everyone else assume I was only talking about the Blood Mage. You say I failed to grasp the basic logic of the game so what is the basic logic when I know what every stat does and does not do. You have no idea what the classes will get, they did not mention new multis, they mentioned new Ultimate skills, and I let you think about that since you think ultimate skills are the multis. So now you are saying that support is underpowered, that is far from the truth because players with higher support than others are getting critical damage especially the ones with Artillery strike. So when you posted your first post did I attack you, no. When players are talking about support being nerfed, did I attack them or degrade them, no, because changing two things did not affect the rest of the equation of that stat. Not improving field medic did it decrease the critical chance or moving deflection did that decrease the critical chance. With those two things not part of support did it change how it improves different skills? Actually I did code it already I have been doing programming way before you were born. I see the code before I ever write it but I will not do Titan job for him and it is possible any time and for all we know they already done it and it might be implemented next Friday. Attacks on me will get you no where but will bring the attention of the staff to my posts and bring my ideas to Titans attention, so thank you for helping me get my ideas to the staff.
Epic  Post #: 125
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