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RE: =AQ= Houses With Estates - Discussion

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1/22/2011 16:13:48   
brianspenceni
Member

Two people have reporting higher stats for rep 7, and unless you come back to me with a comparison of two means or another statistical signifcance test, it's just anecdotal at this stage.

What was fact for me was that across my 5 characters with full estates and rep 8 half armies, in the first wave of attacks all 5 of my estates produced about 50 less wins than one of the people who was fighting off rep 7 (in one of the recent wars - http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=18461085 ). That convinced me to at least give it a whirl before making a final decision.

Edit: just checked Sigmund, and in the Frostval 2010 battles (i.e. the war I refer to above) I slightly outperformed you. If afterlifex was clearly outperforming me at the start of the war (I assume he sent waves on the first day, but not after that) then he was likely to be outperforming you too. Just checked and all 5 of my characters have similar war counts to you in that war, so unless afterlifex was exceptionally lucky there is proof that rep 7 could be as effective, if not more so that 1/2 rep 8s.

Perhaps we shouldn't give black and white answers without definitive proof?

< Message edited by brianspenceni -- 1/22/2011 16:29:19 >

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AQ DF  Post #: 201
1/22/2011 18:25:36   
krazy demon child
Member

I switched from rep 8 to rep 7 a few wars ago and the only difference I've seen thus far is that it's faster to send my armies now. Other than that they seem to be equal in terms of wins and rewards.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 202
1/22/2011 23:16:20   
Isphus
Member

Whart's the difference (in effectiveness) between half and full armies?
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 203
1/22/2011 23:31:19   
Rai Spellfang
True evil needs no shirt!


 In terms of effectiveness? There really isn't much of a difference between half waves and full waves. It's simply that sending full waves gives you fewer total attempts, which can wind up randomly giving you significantly more or significantly less than the average amount. People send half waves to minimize the standard deviation.

It's the same sort of concept behind why most people prefer attacks with two or more hits to attacks with only one hit, even if they both have the exact same average damage :p
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 204
1/23/2011 7:42:17   
brianspenceni
Member

I personally suspect that some of the difference between half and full armies has to be rounding of victories e.g. With a half army and a full army, if both have a minimum value of 1, then if you do hit the minimum with either then the value for two halves is two but for one full army it's one.
AQ DF  Post #: 205
1/26/2011 14:23:24   
SIGMUND
Member

Okay we have a War this weekend, so let us compare results brianspencini, Nessa, magicdog, Isphus, krazy demon child and any other interested parties.

I willl only use Rep 8 half armies on my five characters.

You can use Rep 7 full armies on your 5 characters?

There will be some differences due to three of mine being level 115.
But SIGMUND and VENESS are both level 136 so they will be directly comparable to your characters.

If there are any level 115 characters out there with 28000 resources you can compare your results to LUCY, HERBERTUS and Nikita.
AQ  Post #: 206
1/26/2011 17:07:32   
BexnDan
Member

Why not do like I did in the last war (see previous page), and each person send say 90 waves of full army, rep 7, then 90 waves of half army, rep 8. Then you know you are comparing like with like. It's an easy experiment to do and the results are easy to interpret.

If we try to compare across different characters then there are a lot of extra variables (eg how many times were your resource producers attacked, what level are you, how much resources are you using on guard tower, did you start as soon as the war began, did you fully use all your resources at the end of the war)
AQ  Post #: 207
1/26/2011 17:10:11   
brianspenceni
Member

That seems reasonable. Out of curiosity, how does your character's level affect results? I thought the three factors were rep, mwp level and amount of resources? Linear regression, anyone?

Can I suggest that we all post outcomes after sending our 28k resources out? BTW I'm not bothered about gold, just wins.
AQ DF  Post #: 208
1/26/2011 17:46:26   
etching
The Spongy One


 >Out of curiosity, how does your character's level affect results? I thought the three factors were rep, mwp level and amount of resources?
>Can I suggest that we all post outcomes after sending our 28k resources out? BTW I'm not bothered about gold, just wins.

Character level only affects the gold/xp rewards, not the war kills.
Otherwise a level 130 character would have a significant advantage over a level 80-90 character.
The gold/xp rewards go hand in hand with the war kills and your character level.
And yeah, you get more gold at level 136 to compensate for the lack of XP.
I agree, please post after your done (or edit your updated post). And include the character level please.
Makes the thread rather untidy with a ton of intermediate posts, IMHO...


< Message edited by etching -- 1/26/2011 18:17:06 >

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AQ  Post #: 209
1/26/2011 19:26:28   
trans205
Member

With 28000 resources and rep 8 half armies, I'm getting around 1100-1150 on first day resource dumps. I'll see what I can get with rep 7 full.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 210
1/27/2011 16:04:10   
brianspenceni
Member

Here are the results of my 5 level 136 Zagorakis characters, using their full estate resources (28,000 per character). MWP rep is 7 for all 5.

Arch Duke Gold: 133,190 Wins: 1,204
Arch Duchess Gold: 132,480 Wins: 1,204
Arch Enchantress Gold: 130,140 Wins: 1,178
Archon Gold: 123,030 Wins: 1,124
Arch Sorceress Gold: 127,890 Wins: 1,169

Hence, the average over 5 level 136 characters, at rep 7 with full resources is 129,346 gold and 1,176 wins - standard deviation is 4,100 gold and 33 wins. If that is remotely close to rep 8 1/2 armies then I'm sticking with rep 7 - it is soooooooo much quicker!

< Message edited by brianspenceni -- 1/27/2011 16:12:31 >

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AQ DF  Post #: 211
1/27/2011 17:47:04   
BexnDan
Member

I sent 90 waves at rep 8 half armies, and 90 waves at rep 7 full army (total cost of 27,000 resources)

rep 7 full: 558 wins (139090 XP, 47710 gold)
rep 8 half: 558 wins (139530 XP, 47860 gold)

AQ  Post #: 212
1/27/2011 18:45:29   
Bizarro Sephiroth
Member

So rep 8 1/2 armies gave me 1152 army wins prolly going to switch to 7 full

Edit: as of 12pm server time jan 30th my estate is at 1490 wins at 127 resources regained per hour
at rep 8 1/2 armies the entire time

< Message edited by Bizarro Sephiroth -- 1/30/2011 13:17:40 >
AQ DF  Post #: 213
1/27/2011 19:28:32   
brianspenceni
Member

Was curious, based on my resource gains rate and my wins per wave (c.6.32, costing 150 resources for rep 7 and rep 8 1/2 armies) to see how my earlier posted figures should change over time.

For the record, my main character gains 135 resources/hour meaning I should on average gain 135/150*6.32=5.69 wins/hour and for my other four characters (who have higher level guard towers) it's 121/150*6.32=5.1 wins/hour.

Essentially, to compare the number of wins my characters are capable of against other people at a point in time, take how long after my post they post their figures and add 1,176 + hours*either 5.69 or 5.1 to make it like for like.

One day from my initial post, based on my initial rates, my average should have increased to about 1,300 (i.e. 1,176 + 24*either 5.69 or 5.1).

< Message edited by brianspenceni -- 1/29/2011 7:07:12 >
AQ DF  Post #: 214
1/27/2011 21:27:56   
afterlifex
Legend-X


 well since we have a "few" rep 7 lvl 136 numbers i guess i will do rep 8, 1/2 armies instead. I will be back with kills & gold.

edit:

lvl 136
27,600 of 28,000 resources used

130,297 gold
1,171 kills


(gold may be a bit off thou(by a few hundred..as I am stupid)

< Message edited by afterlifex -- 1/27/2011 21:48:10 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 215
1/27/2011 21:59:28   
SIGMUND
Member

So far 6.09 is the average from SIGMUND.
But he has only done 66 Rep 8 Half Army missions. So he is below your average brianspencini.
However that may change?

Edit: 28000 resources breaks down to 186 repeats for either Rep 8 Half Armies or Rep 7 Full Armies

After 186 battles SIGMUND had 1159 Army wins and 125780 gold. The average 6.23 army wins giving 676.24 gold. So still slightly lower than your average brianspecini. But improved from my first 66 battles.
Veness was at 1210 after 186 battles. With an average of 6.50 army wins

I don't think the difference is statistically significant even though the numbers are different, but I'm not going to work it out.

Currently my characters stand like this.
Sigmund
http://guardian.battleon.com/Build30/charview.asp?temp=27082669
Veness
http://guardian.battleon.com/Build30/charview.asp?temp=27082768
Herbertus
http://aq.battleon.com/build30/charview.asp?temp=27082813
Lucy
http://aq.battleon.com/build30/charview.asp?temp=27082708
Nikita
http://guardian.battleon.com/Build30/charview.asp?temp=38185097

None of my estates should be attacked because I haz bazillions of guards......


< Message edited by SIGMUND -- 1/29/2011 13:19:03 >
AQ  Post #: 216
1/28/2011 2:45:32   
Prosperine
Member

rep 7 full armies, 6,200 resources in each category = 979 1084 1218 army wins.. that's gonna go up abit :D

< Message edited by Prosperine -- 1/30/2011 10:32:00 >
AQ DF  Post #: 217
1/29/2011 0:11:42   
krazy demon child
Member

I got 127,530 gold and 1160 wins using rep 7 full armies. From past experience and the data that we are seeing I can say without a doubt that there is no difference between rep 8 half armies and rep 7 full armies other than speed.

< Message edited by krazy demon child -- 1/29/2011 0:19:41 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 218
1/30/2011 9:57:01   
brianspenceni
Member

As per Etching's advice, gonna try to keep my posts tidy! However, I am keeping my initial wins, and subsequent wins separate within this post for the reasons discussed below - please note that my character arch duke never loses resources due to attacks but to differing degrees my other characters do.

Here are the results of my 5 level 136 Zagorakis characters on 27th Jan at 4pm EST, using their full estate resources (28,000 per character). MWP rep is 7 for all 5.

Arch Duke Gold: 133,190 Wins: 1,204
Arch Duchess Gold: 132,480 Wins: 1,204
Arch Enchantress Gold: 130,140 Wins: 1,178
Archon Gold: 123,030 Wins: 1,124
Arch Sorceress Gold: 127,890 Wins: 1,169

Hence, the average over 5 level 136 characters, at rep 7 with full resources is 129,346 gold and 1,176 wins - standard deviation is 4,100 gold and 33 wins. If that is remotely close to rep 8 1/2 armies then I'm sticking with rep 7 - it is soooooooo much quicker!

Results clocked 7am, 29th Jan EST:
Arch Duke Wins: 1,410
Arch Duchess Wins: 1,398
Arch Enchantress Wins: 1,360
Archon Wins: 1,292
Arch Sorceress Wins: 1,340

Average wins: 1,360

I actually think it's crucial to separately posting your initial 28k resources wins and intermediate stage wins. This is because all things are equal for those starting with 28k resources, but two other factors come into play after this - your resource gain rate and the number of times your estates gets attacked (i.e. what proportion of your available resources gained you retain - in other words net resources gained). In the face of it, the Arch Duke character seems to be outperforming my other characters, but that's not the case - he has more guards, but a lower level of guard tower meaning his net resources gained is substantially higher than my other 4 characters.

If, at the end of the war, someone seems to lag or catch up, it may be because of this. If we make conclusions, I would prefer it to be based on all the facts.

Edit @9.51am, 30th Jan EST:
Arch Duke Wins: 1,574
Arch Duchess Wins: 1,526
Arch Enchantress Wins: 1,486
Archon Wins: 1,423
Arch Sorceress Wins: 1,492

Average wins: 1,500

Ended with a sum of 7,727 compared to e.g sigmund at 7,820 across 5 characters with full estates so minimal difference. My character most comparable to sigmunds (i.e. loads of guards) scored 1,625 which was 45 more than any of his characters. The conclusion is that rep 7 is as good (possibly identical to) rep 8 1/2 armies.

< Message edited by brianspenceni -- 1/30/2011 18:13:07 >
AQ DF  Post #: 219
1/31/2011 5:54:12   
BexnDan
Member

Well my character (who does not haz gazillions of guards like Sigmund and the Zagorakis) finished with 1510 wins after doing a mixture of half 8's and full 7's. I'm convinced that it makes no difference, which I suppose we shouldn't be surprised about because they both cost 150 resources.

One point to consider especially for those with gazillions of guards is the guard tower level.

I've been spying on your characters - I hope you don't mind

ArchDuke Zagorakis - guard tower level 7 - uses 2 resources per hour - ie 150 altogether (the war was approx 75 hrs I think)
The other Zagorakis - guard tower level 15 - use 16 resources per hour - ie 1200 altogether
Sigmund's characters - guard tower level 12 - use 8 resources per hour - ie 600 altogether

If none of you had any attacks then Sigmund's can send their armies 3 more times than the lesser Zagorakis, giving about 20 extra wins, and the ArchDuke can send another 4 waves on top of that, giving about another 25 wins. That probably explains why he had the most wins.

AQ  Post #: 220
1/31/2011 6:28:02   
SIGMUND
Member

I think the case is proved that there is no statistically significant difference between the two options we explored.

Rep 7 Full armies is the fastest option for speedy delivery of wins .
If you have time and you don't mind pressing lots of buttons you can use Rep 8 Half armies.
AQ  Post #: 221
2/9/2011 1:02:12   
ants
Member

will wars be the only thing we can use estates for? Maybe some ingame estate sort of quest that you can repeat once per week regardless of wars (Now that would be awesome!)
AQ AQW  Post #: 222
2/10/2011 8:58:21   
SIGMUND
Member

It would be good to have something for the Estates to do between wars.
But the rewards would pile up too quickly. Unless they were different to normal War rewards...???

This would change the nature of AQ from a single player bash-em and level up RPG.
It would make the estates an essential part of playing the game, rather than just an additional thing to do.

Anyway I have full resources again. So now we have Snugglefest and then ? Fixit week followed by a War, maybe.
AQ  Post #: 223
2/10/2011 13:29:35   
Nessa Ellensse
Member

You mean other than the Frostval estate's quest for the Reigndragon, it's an easy place to farm for XP but even that gets old after awhile
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 224
3/8/2011 8:28:35   
SIGMUND
Member

Full Resources sometime past and the food is starting to rot...... It must be time for another War? or maybe an update?
Come on Captain Rhubarb you know you want to....
AQ  Post #: 225
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