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RE: The Stat Inflation Problem

 
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1/24/2011 13:57:49   
PD
Member

Post Updated. Added the following Paragraphs within the "To Every Problem, there is a solution"

quote:

Does anyone remember Xendran's Stat Values Post? I bet not many do. If you don't remember, it was a post that Xendran made that displayed the value of all the stats. First off, balancing the stat values is absolutely pivotal to balancing Epicduel. Why? This way, all builds would have equal power. There won't be better builds than everyone else. Every build will be of equal power to everything else. The only thing that would determine the victor is the person who happens to have better skill. I know a lot of people would like to win based on skill. This is the first step to doing so. Equal builds, equal gameplay. A game where SKILL makes you the winner, not luck. Currently, The Stats aren't equal in Value; For example, a Support Build would be better than a Strength build, because support has more stat yield. However, if we take that, and equalize the stats, then the two builds would be equally powerful, and the person with the better sense of skill would win, although, there's still the occasional luck factor. However, luck factors ARE needed, or else the person who goes first, or the person who goes first would most likely win, which I don't believe should be the case at all.


quote:


After Balancing the Stats, and implementing a standard, the Staff can safely take out Agility and Focus, as well as lower, or remove stat requirements on Skills/Passives. As of now, Without standardization and stat equalizing, Removing Focus and Agility would do nothing. Absolutely nothing. Why you ask? Contrary to Popular belief, removing these won't do any major effect. Talking to Xendran in many conversations, we discussed what would happen if there the team DID remove Focus and agility. What did we come to the consensus of? Simple; Nothing good would happen. Due to all the new stat requirements, I doubt many of us would feel that change. In fact, it'd probably make the game worse. The order to come by this is really that of being careful which update happens first. Here's how it should go...

1. Equalize Stats
2. Standardize Weapon Stat Modifiers
3. Remove Focus and Agility

If it's not taken with this order, Epicduel will be in quite the heap of chaos until all three of those are in Existance. And it's been argued that this would take too much work on them. True, it will take a lot of work. But that's only an excuse. If we dealt with the problem now, then we wouldn't need to deal with the problem ever again. That's the truth. Deal with the problem now, do the hard work now, and there will be less complaints, and Epicduel will be saved. It's so easy. I've practically put the answer to balancing the game right in your nose. So why not fix the problem now?


Also added a paragraph in the section "How does the problem work?
quote:


Now, this affect Epicduel in a bad way. If Epicduel could be a game where it could be run and processed without money, then it would. But we need not to forget that Epicduel is a business, and they still need to make money in order to pay for the costs of the game. To keep the game alive, they need people to purchase in-game items for varium. However, if nobody buys anything, then Epicduel cannot live. This is what happens when you make a weapon more powerful than all the rest. Nobody buys anything that's less powerful than what you already got, and to keep payed players paying, they need to make something MORE powerful to keep them buying, forcing them to upset the balance of the game, or else they will go out of Business. I'll show you guys how Frostbane made this problem happen, but that's for a later section.


Feel free to read and comment. It's all appreciated.

Also, I've changed the post layout completely. Made interactivity so when I update this post, it'll be easier for people to get to the updated parts.

< Message edited by PD -- 1/24/2011 14:21:47 >
AQ MQ  Post #: 26
1/24/2011 18:52:49   
DillBagel
Member

Soooooo Loooong.

Great post and ideas though, but I do agree with Grun that simply reducing stats on everything would not change the problem.
Though this is somewhat a waste of time since, sad to say, I doubt it will be read or paid attention to by staff members.
AQW Epic  Post #: 27
1/24/2011 19:26:04   
Travis Touchdown
Reality Touchdown!


For what it's worth, the obscene stat bonuses from higher level equipment, especially some of the Varium equipment, is why I decided to leave this game a couple months ago. There was a dramatic spike in difficulty after level 20-- by the end, it was a miracle to even do noticeable damage on a foe even two levels above me.

EpicDuel has balance issues the size of skyscrapers-- certain combinations are ungodly overpowered, such as the Support Mage stun and plasma bolt being enough to eradicate all non-Health based builds before they even have a chance to react-- but stat issues are king amongst them. Mjollnor deserves my ire in particular-- this thing stands hands and shoulders over virtually all free-to-play Merc weapons simply because of its obscene stat boosts. I tried, and I tried hard to avoid using this crime against all things balanced at all costs-- and in the end I didn't stand a chance without it.

As far as I'm concerned, I see no point in even trying to return to EpicDuel with things as they are. By the time I decided to pack it in, I was dealing with an approximately 10% win rate once I got to Level 20-ish. No amount of strategy would make even a margin of difference. Bringing stat boosts to a sane level would be a great step in the right direction.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 28
1/25/2011 23:18:29   
PD
Member

I'm thinking - This new release with the advent of the new and upgraded Valentine's weapons - I fear these will have the best stat yields of today's game; Something that could be a possible "Best" again. I'm hoping the ED Team doesn't use the excuse of people wanting powerful stuff to make these MORE powerful than anything we've ever seen before.

And now my plea...

Please Titan and NW AND Charfade; Don't destroy Balance - Don't make the Valentine's Weapons the most powerful. It'll only make things worse in the end. Trust me. Looks at what Frostbane did to us all. I beg you guys to NOT make them powerful above all things. Leave them as is. If you ignore me, you'll only usurp the balance by increasing stat inflation.

< Message edited by PD -- 1/25/2011 23:19:34 >
AQ MQ  Post #: 29
1/25/2011 23:25:23   
sky222
Member

Looks like no one saw mah post cuz it was at the bottom of page ._.
Ima repost it if AKs think this is spam then delete
quote:

BTW my input/solution is instead of redoing alot of the weps in epicduel I say raise the level cap to 40, perhaps 45, maybe even 50 if needed and raise the level of the currently available 30-32 weps and continue raising it and putting new weps in so that the SIP never happens again but ED keeps making the needed money.
The other way is to inflate the lower levels not deflate higher ones but that would take ages
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 30
1/25/2011 23:32:27   
PD
Member

@Sky222

eheh... heh... heh... Yeah, about Prices... Oh wait, I don't think saying the truth about prices is a good idea. Not Here. Not now. Maybe when the time is right. But that' time... is not now.

EDIT: Oh Wait, Xendran already said the truth. X3

BTW, I don't your suggestion is a bad suggestion, but my question would be, How would you account for the weapon stats after that? As I said before, Epicduel in it's entire history has never had a standard. How would you go by making weapons without the basis of standard? You can't jsut randomly set stat mods on areas with random amounts - No, that's gonna make it as hellish as the low levels are in terms of balance.

Your suggestion isn't a bad one, but you may want to consider thinking about how you'll go about with standards, and weapon content per level, fluctuating variables, ect. One level at a time really is the way to go: By taking things slowly, the staff will be assured about future values of stats. IE: How many stat mods a weapon should have to be OP or UP, ect.

It's not a bad suggestion, but not something that would be easy to approach, more or less accomplish in a perfect manner.

< Message edited by PD -- 1/26/2011 0:02:58 >
AQ MQ  Post #: 31
1/25/2011 23:56:18   
Xendran
Member

Not much can be done about prices since prices aren't up to titan and nightwraith
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 32
1/25/2011 23:57:38   
sky222
Member

Well of course, I mean you need a standard to know how high to raise the level of the weps. But IMO my idea would be easier to put in than yours cause changing a level is easier than changing the entire weapon. I never said that raising caps and levels of weps was the only step.
Just my 2 cents
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 33
1/26/2011 0:15:44   
Crovile V2
Member

@ PD :

In the post at the top of the page you did mention some remedies of balancing out stats. That is just half of all the problems. But anyways, there you had mentioned that this game requires Varium purchases to function. Now in this game, the best Varium packages comes out during rares. Like Valentines, Halloween etc. So most people will buy them in-order to possess some of the best Seasonal Rares & in turn which keeps Epic Duel functioning. Later on in the next post you had mentioned not to make the upcoming rares powerful. You are contradicting yourself. See, until & unless there isn't a better weapon, noone is gonna purchase Varium. See, most of us are Lv 32 & those Valentine Rares, when released previously, were lv 30. Even for us 32s to even buy that weapon it has to come in level with other Lv 32 weapons. Which means they have to be powerful.

There has to be another way to even out stats. Coz the above mentioned method isn't gonna work.
Post #: 34
1/26/2011 0:22:17   
PD
Member

Yes, I forgot to look at that problem that way. However, making the Valentine's weapons the best will only make the problem worse.

As I said, we first have to equalize the stat values, then standardize the stat mods, then remove focus and agility along with stat requirements on skills.*

Maybe making the Valentine's weapons a bit worse than the weapons before it might make them un-desirable, but at least it won't make it so that the problem gets worse. I also agree that by making the V-Day (I'll shorted Valentine's as V) weapons the best, people will buy them.

I think maybe only making the upcoming rares less powerful isn't a good idea until the other things* are done first.

But thank you for catching my fundamental error.
AQ MQ  Post #: 35
1/26/2011 2:29:17   
Crovile V2
Member

Well ! IDK ! Maybe stat equalization might have to wait till level cap rises. There after the weapon stats could be controlled, like only increase the base damage of the weapon but keeping the base stats the same as of current ones. As far as I see it, stats can be controlled only as level cap rises. In our current state lowering the weapons might be a bad thing to happen ! Just a small suggestion though !
Post #: 36
1/26/2011 3:47:54   
Drianx
Member

Buying better weapons is the main reason people buy varium. The expensive enhancement slots are an addition to the same lust.
Some solutions for slowing this weapons inflation might be:

- Raising level cap constantly (every 2 months for example), to keep up with obscene stat modifiers inflation.
- Getting rid of focus and agility and finding smart and less restrictive measures to compensate their removal.
- Bringing new features to spend varium on, such as
---- the classes upgrades that Xendran suggested some time ago,
---- player occupations (like crafting better weapons),
---- item trading between players including rares,
---- exclusive varium areas with NPC bosses that can drop rares when are defeated in battle.

My conclusion is that as long as the game will be PVP only and no new dimensions are brought in, devs can't sell pretty much anything better than weapons.

< Message edited by Drianx -- 1/26/2011 3:53:33 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 37
1/26/2011 6:34:07   
King FrostLich
Member

My conclusion is we need to have 8 stat points when we level up when we reach 33-100(if level cap reaches to 100)because Admin 12 and Lawman wont be the preferable NPC's to farm for anybody.
Epic  Post #: 38
1/26/2011 10:26:40   
IsaiahtheMage
Member

I agree with this post I didnt read it all because its to much but from what I read yeah the stats are way to high now.I think the level cap should go from 32 to 35 like it is in AQW.
AQW Epic  Post #: 39
1/26/2011 10:34:57   
Crovile V2
Member

@ FrostLich :

Do you mean 8 stat point increase per level ? If that's so then it's gonna create even bigger problems TBH.
Post #: 40
1/26/2011 23:12:00   
edwardvulture
Member

@ PD's thread on the top-HP cannot be balanced because there are certain factors that make it too unfair. For instance, 13 hybrid or +8 armor. Unless HP increase goes down after a certain point, removing agility wouldn't be balanced.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 41
1/27/2011 7:52:41   
King FrostLich
Member

@Crovile

For lower levels, yes but I think they should remove varium enhancements for this and decrease the amount of credits to get enhancements.
Epic  Post #: 42
1/28/2011 0:35:15   
PD
Member

Giving players 8 points per level up is a bad idea. Player Stats would then overtake weapon stats in influence. If 8 stat points were awarded per each level, then stat points from players would increase at a faster rate than do the weapons yield to the players. Although it's a good idea to lower stat influence of weapons, having base stats overtaking stat mods from weapons isn't a good idea. Not at all.
AQ MQ  Post #: 43
1/28/2011 2:16:17   
TurkishIncubus
Member

PD,

You are right about the 1-29 lwl weps has no standart stat modifiers and admins should fix it i think and the thing you said is when a better wep come ppl will not buy older wep yes its true but admins doing if 1 wep has higher stat modifier the other has higher base dmg , like u gived example Bunny and the other new aux and they do samething in all weps , Plasma ACP has higher stat modifier but Overlord is more balanced gun . Dragon Buster has higest Stat modifier (physical) and Most ppl want Liberty Ripper for its better stat modifier fit their build.The thing is Admins started to do what you said.

And you are right about weps give incredibly high Stat modifier, That make ppl anable stat abuse and (i want to add something) High Stat modifier make skills more useless. None Of 32 lwl Mages using Caster build + the others only use the skills improve with abused stat.

But If we dont make better weps than Founder armor+ bunny+dragon buster+frostbane will be the best weps forever and that will effect game financly bad , They has to make more good weps to make ppl want to buy them which will cause Stat Inflation , Weps Modifiers will be more high in future you cant stop it. Balancing and lowering modifiers probably will solve balance thng but If there is no better wep ppl will not buy them so we need to find another thing to solve balance problem...

_____________________________

Epic  Post #: 44
1/28/2011 20:07:26   
Maxziel
Member

Azrael's Bane.

They yet AGAIN but I'm not suprised; stepped on another landmine.
Oh God, they are completely ignoring this problem.

Check it out.. more powerful weps.. 10k varium pack and ANOTHER better sword..

Other classes have weapon specific skills for god's sake.
The Varium packs are completely leaned towards mercs =_=

I had to alter my whole Tech Mages build towards non-Staff skills just to get an additional +5& crit rate on that bloody sword for the future.

!@#%R&^$($)
Post #: 45
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