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RE: Nonvarium Players -- the solution?

 
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3/6/2011 9:22:39   
Evric
Member

@OWA

im bh and not using any lvl 32 weps im using lvl 30 and 31 and its working just find
Post #: 26
3/6/2011 9:27:49   
Drakeh
Member

Agree with this idea. Last time I counted full varium tm had 36 more stats than my non varium (I have all best , rare items fr non varium). Sadly staff nearly never listen to GREAT player ideas.
AQ DF  Post #: 27
3/6/2011 12:35:51   
voidance
Member

@FrostLich
Idk about Australia but it works in the US, i buy my varuim but did try the peanut labs just to see if it works and it does got like 1200 points from 2 offers.
AQW Epic  Post #: 28
3/6/2011 13:32:25   
eragonshadeslayer67
Member

This is a PvP which equals competition, and even though it sux for non-vars, it's unfair if a var wep that costs 8-9 bucks are just barely better than a non var wep

also it's not var stuff that OPed it's enhancements, delete it and non var weps are completely balanced (maple cleaver almost is on the same level as frostbane but frostbane has a 10 enhancement advantage)

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{AQW} Click for full guide to the Tower of NEcromancy! Lvs 0-10!!
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 29
3/6/2011 13:44:23   
Algorithm
Member

@Thread starter: You have a very well point in deed.

< Message edited by Algorithm -- 3/7/2011 12:16:01 >
Post #: 30
3/6/2011 16:37:20   
One Winged Angel1357
Member


@aere do 200 fights tell me how many F2P's you see with a bot(ill give you a hint ive only seen 4 on a F2P since it was put in the arcade) and Also its rather hard to find a F2P with the funds to get enchancments 5k, 10k, 20k, 30k thast just for four enchancements. Now onto varium 50, 100, 200, 300 thats 650 varium for 4 slots and 65k credits for four now how many F2Ps have that many credits on hand.

I used four for my base number becuase thats really what you need to make a difference in your build.


@Ervic there goes what i was going to show you. If you have any F2P lv 32 BH friends get him to use the same build as you as well as same style of weapons and you will see the difference you get between Varium and F2P at its best(ive never tested the idea but that is a completely plasible experiment set up)
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 31
3/6/2011 17:10:38   
masterspider78
Member

how about if the prices of varium is reduced so it will be fair to everyone (yikes, saying this might not be helping, I should also say the the combined power of full on varium weapons will still be powerful than non-varium)

< Message edited by masterspider78 -- 3/6/2011 17:13:07 >
MQ AQW  Post #: 32
3/7/2011 8:55:48   
Luna_moonraider
Member

@ owa

well f2p bh are way weaker than a variumed bh. most non var bh give up half way or turn into varium players. so i can safely say f2p bh cannot copy a varium bh build.

@eragonshadeslayer67

most good non var rare weps came out during 4th of july. i do hope they increase the slots of enhancements of maple cleaver.and enhancemnets have helped me to kill lowe. i dun think i can win lowe without enhancements. so i dont think they should remove enhancements but they should just stop making new varium weps with 10 slots of enhancements. 10 slots is just way too much.8 should be enuf actually.

< Message edited by Luna_moonraider -- 3/7/2011 8:57:21 >


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AQW Epic  Post #: 33
3/7/2011 10:37:44   
voidance
Member

If you have noticed the only weapons in the game that have +10 enhancements are promotional items, so why would they nerf or stop making something that helps sell the large varuim pack.
AQW Epic  Post #: 34
3/7/2011 12:15:34   
Algorithm
Member

^Quote from Nightwraith "To those of you who read this and are still committed to the belief that Titan and myself are completely out of touch with the EpicDuel community and only interested in money, all I can say is if EpicDuel makes you so unhappy, maybe you should stop playing..." So I believe they care some what of balance(and not all about money), and if thats the case, maybe they should make it more cheaper for item enhancements.

< Message edited by Algorithm -- 3/7/2011 22:58:28 >


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Legion > Exile
Post #: 35
3/7/2011 14:04:41   
SCORPIOZZz
Member
 

solution : no solution we dont pay money for nothing and we dont pay money justt to get separated like REVENGE said makin 2 servers 1 var 2nd non var makes var uselesss :/
Epic  Post #: 36
3/7/2011 14:16:16   
B9000
Member

Many good points there Giras Wolfe, but you cant really separate the discussion of balance between f2p/p2pers from cost of varium discussion. Masterspider78 has hit the nail on the head here. Currently with the amount varium costs, and the number of items that can be purchased (and enhanced), people with varium 'deserve' to be overpowered for their large investment. Otherwise many wouldn't buy it. On the flip side, if you keep such a large gap between varium and and non varium, many of the f2p player-base may leave (and/or not recommend others to join), as the game becomes less free 2 play and more 'free 2 give wins to paying players'.

IMO the only real long term solution would be to lower the COST and the advantages of varium. Offering a ton of perks for a lot of real money basically makes it impossible to keep both varium and f2p reasonably satisfied. I'm not suggesting to nerf the power of weapons already sold (or boosting current non varium gear), changing the value of already sold good would make a lot of unhappy customers. However, going forward they could work out a new system. Obviously if they make newer varium weapons that are weaker than current ones, or the current batch of non-v weapons 'overpowered' not many will want to buy the varium items. There is a problematic trend which seems to be making the problem worse. For example the powerful varium warbot armor just released is level 27, this is detrimental to balance as the 'good' armor for non varium is still level 28 (all level 28 armors should now be lowered to 27 to prevent the bad side affects of this). Some of the most powerful weapons are level 30 (Frostbane and Az Bane). This creates a problem, as to encourage new sales the devs will need to make max level weapons that overpower these. But if the level cap remains fixed for so long, this will wreak havoc in stat inflation and the f2p/p2p balance.

Therefore I'd propose something like the following:

Over the next little while open up the level cap by quite a bit, to level 38-40 (and in the future don't let so many players hit the max level before raising it). Introduce weapons at each level that are significantly more powerful than the ones currently available, but make the difference between var and non varium smaller (and varium stuff cheaper). That way people will still buy even though the gap is smaller, since it will still outclass what they currently have. To go along with weapons being much more powerful than on previous levels, the gap the battlefinder matches up players will probably need to be cut from 5 levels to 3 or so, or change it to something like I wrote about here.

I'm not so naive as to think that the devs should just 'make less money' so that non-paying players are happy, I know that this game is their livelihood. But games such as these generally are successful through micro-payments, keeping the amounts small, and volume large. I think that if they structured this change properly they could increase their profits by making up the difference in volume. I know with a 'fast' moving level cap and introducing a lot of new weapons constantly can be a LOT of work for the artists, so if this is a limitation, the artists can reuse the same design and go the bronze, iron, steel, titanium sword route (get a lot of use out of each weapon design, just change the colors and stats a bit as it levels up).

By allowing people to constantly level up and buy new stuff, players will be much more interested by the ever-present goal of leveling (would probably vastly increase the amount of xp boost sold too). Keeping the level cap fluid, would also keep the lower levels from hitting the 'varium wall' at the fairly low level of 27, and spreading out the varium players over many levels would keep non varium players to be encouraged to play (and bring their friends) since the ratio of f2p opponents will be much better. Also, making the real-money cost of gear smaller, makes them much more of an impulse buy, as opposed to the trend now: many I've spoken to are much more reluctant to keep upgrading as the price with enhancements has made it costly to stay on top, without the level cap even moving, makes many feel they are spending but not going anywhere.

Additionally, with these changes, players who aren't super active will still be encouraged to buy as they wont fear that anything they buy will be outdated/outclassed by items on the same level (since future releases will be geared towards new weapons for the new level cap, preventing over-saturation of weapons for the current levels). As it stands now, some people hesitate to buy items at a time they don't know if they will be active. However if weapons on a given level don't ever really become outdated for that level, they can benefit from their purchase at their own pace. I fear the current varium price structure in this game is forcing ED to be marginalized in the gaming market. Charging AAA title prices, and trying to keep the balance with a f2p is just not feasible in the long run. By making the above changes would probably be vastly more healthy for growth and appeal of the game to a wider range of players.

< Message edited by B9000 -- 3/7/2011 17:59:11 >
Epic  Post #: 37
3/7/2011 15:55:57   
Raven God
Member

Kudos for the great ideas Giras Wolfe!! I'm amazed to see that still some Varium players care more for balance and justice than about squishing the non-Varium ones.

Anyway, you have some very good & interesting points there, but I think pushing the non-Varium armors to +8 Def/Res instead of +6 is going to make a lot of people furious.
And we all know what happens when a lot of people whine, don't we?

But yeah, reducing (in a non-excessive way) the stat gap is a great idea!! As the level cap increases, so does the Stat Inflation widen the gap. I agree it has to stop before the few remaining F2P (me included) quit for good.

The downside if that ED does not have Ballyhoo feature; otherwise they would know how profitable it would be to appeal to all the ED community and not the paying side alone (this idea was suggested in some threads already from what I've seen; it could be a source of Varium in VERY SMALL amounts, and a source of income for ED team aswell).

And for those who apoint us to AE extras, please remember that not everyone lives in the USA. In some countries, either the choice is very limited, or it is does not exist at all. So please, stop using that as it is a valid argument.

Varium players should have the advantage, yes, but bear in mind, this game is actually Free-to-Play, and not Pay-to-Win; the advantage is so big that it is almost a "Instant Win" big button, which defies this game's status as F2P.
AQ DF  Post #: 38
3/7/2011 16:07:48   
voidance
Member

@Algorithm
Why do you guys only point out weapons with 10 enhancements? With the enhances they got +34 , and there are many weapons that have +34 but instead of 8 8 8+10, they got 8 8 10+8, such as rixty ripper, soul ripper, dragon buster, etc.

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AQW Epic  Post #: 39
3/7/2011 16:25:56   
Tiago X
Member

Best idea I've seen here. And I've been here for a while.
DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 40
3/7/2011 16:27:22   
voidance
Member

@Tiago X
and who would this be directed at?
AQW Epic  Post #: 41
3/7/2011 17:09:52   
Tiago X
Member

@Voidance, at Giras Ebil(or wolf, lôl). Who else ? ;]
DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 42
3/7/2011 18:45:38   
voidance
Member

Idk maybe at B9000, i personaly didnt read it because its too long but im sure its something good.



Sorry about that duno why i put ate

< Message edited by voidance -- 3/7/2011 23:13:18 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 43
3/7/2011 19:10:17   
Giras Wolfe
Member

What most of you are missing is the fact that this will make your varium MORE valuable because you will get to fight more nonvariums.

Right now, almost players in 1v1 at levels 30-32 are varium, so you have no advantage. Instead, if we make the stat gap more reasonable, more nonvariums will play. They will be a lot less "squishable" and if they're smarter then you they can win, but you will enjoy an advantage over them. This will increase the win % of varium players who are currently all fighting OTHER varium players.

Stop and ponder this a moment before saying you would demand a refund.

@B9000
Lowering the price of varium would be a good strategy move for the staff, but it would be unfair to those who already bought it, unless they received some type of varium boost relevant to the equipment they bought at the old prices. This wouldn't solve the nonvarium problem, however, but it would increase the number of nonvariums who decide to buy varium.

However, the idea of raising the level cap to 40 I do NOT agree with because it would make my entire $100+ inventory useless. I would only support this if they had a way to upgrade my current weapons to titanium, etc depending on my level for a small additional payment. Which is actually an intriguing idea come to think of it:

Level 20: Bronze frostbane- 1,500 varium, stats, stat slots, and damage scaled to match a level 20 varium weapon
Level 25: Copper frostbane- 1,500 varium, or 100 to upgrade from previous tier, available stats and slots increased to match a level 25 varium weapon.
Level 30: Iron Frostbane, 1,500 varium, or 100 to upgrade from previous tier, available stats and slots increased to what they are now.
Level 35: Steel Frostbane, 1500 varium, or 100 to upgrade from previous tier, available stats and slots increased to match those of a level 35 weapon.
Level 40: Titanium Frostbane, 1500 varium, or 100 to upgrade from previous tier, available stats and slots increased to match those of a level 40 weapon.

So this way, a new player could buy varium at level 20, and then pay small amounts to keep it competent throughout the levels. Alternatively, he could wait until the level cap then buy it and save a couple hundred varium. This would make varium weapons worth their whopping price tag because they would never go outdated. It would also bring old weapons like the heartbreaker equipment into relevance. But perhaps it would be a better idea to upgrade weapons in tiers of every 2 levels at a smaller fee? This would be available to nonvariums in the same way at high credit prices, much like enhancement slots.

This would make buying a varium weapon a reliable, permanent investment instead of something that will always get weaker and weaker.

< Message edited by Giras Wolfe -- 3/7/2011 19:12:31 >
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 44
3/7/2011 19:16:19   
One Winged Angel1357
Member


i just relived something reading the title


F2P's are a problem since when
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 45
3/7/2011 19:59:49   
B9000
Member

@ Giras Wolfe, well as things stand now when things change some group will be unhappy, but we do need change. A few things about your $100 inventory. That's part of the problem of this game, such a high concentration of spending on the same level of items means they are bound to be wasted at some point. I know you've probably gotten some decent value out of them, but not enough considering the price. Even if the level cap were raised a bunch, you would still have use out of them while you level for the next few levels, but they cant last forever. A huge part of the problem of 'wasted' items has nothing to do with raising the level cap, it is lack of varium sellback. But to keep the max level down just to get value out of them ignores the root of the issues that are starting to build and grow. I would suggest varium sellback to mitigate people's concern over newly purchased weapons. I suspect that for now there isn't the volume of sales and players to have both varium sellback and cheaper varium prices. I suppose they could make an announcement that there will be varium sellback up until day X, then after that there will be no more more sellback but prices will be much lower. Obviously there would still be those upset who would miss it. However if they announced it well enough, and kept the window open for a decent amount of time this group would be minimal. Then people who have purchased can get something back for what they spent, people in the future will get cheaper prices, and it will be balanced out.

When I say lowering the price on varium, it doesn't necessarily mean to lower the cost of the packages, but could be lowering the amount of varium each item costs. So people who have bought packages wouldn't lose out.

Another thing regarding money already spent. Whether or not the level cap is raised gear will become outdated. It's simply the only way they can keep selling varium. Keeping the cap in place in fact creates the balance issues between var and non var. As weapons become increasingly more powerful to continue sales, non varium people need better weapons to remain within a reasonable range of stats difference. However, if the level cap stays in place too long, as the non varium people need increasingly more powerful weapons to keep the gap from growing, the devs can't make these non varium weapons more powerful than varium items which sold only a couple months earlier, thus preventing a closing of the gap to a 'reasonable' difference, bringing us to where we are now .

< Message edited by B9000 -- 3/7/2011 22:56:21 >
Epic  Post #: 46
3/7/2011 21:38:44   
Chosen 0ne
Banned


interesting
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 47
3/8/2011 7:42:29   
PivotalDisorder
Member

quote:

Nice idea, and since f2p can only plausibly get about 8 enh. slots and p2p can max out at around 16 ( on average) it makes it a total of 24, which is pretty fair

4 points per level. thats effectively 6 extra levels worth of stats. like a 26 vs a 32 [except for skill points]. you really need to buy that kind of massive advantage to enjoy the game ?
people pay if the weapons are massively overpowered, people still pay if it gives them a small edge over the majority or makes them look cool. and people still pay even if half of
non paying players leave. this isnt a do or die scenario, we are just asking for a little bit more balance to be added to the game for the non paying player. do the people with varium
[myself included] really want to maintain a 85%+ win ratio with most of those wins coming against players who had absolutely no chance ? i dont personally. not exactly enjoyable.
Post #: 48
3/8/2011 20:09:26   
Light Stridr
Member

Here's a reason why Titan and Nightwraith are reluctant to do anything. THE DAMAGE HAS BEEN DONE. Lots of stuff already costs varium (Class Change, Name Change, Decent Helms, stat-bloated weapons), and if they tweaked that in any way, all the people who have bought varium would ragequit because they have "wasted" their money. Now I should point out that once they raise the level cap most of the stuff they have bought becomes redundant anyway, so i can't see why they would have any real reason to be up in arms. I would suggest raising the cap to level 35-40, and implementing these changes then. That way weapons like FrostBane will become less useful, so they will have to buy more varium anyway.
AQW Epic  Post #: 49
3/8/2011 20:34:50   
voidance
Member

I disagree, stuff like Frostbane wont become redundant after the level cap because it wont be but a level or 2 and people still use stuff like beta gear and those are level 25 and from beta phase. rising it to 35-40 from 32 would be way overdone because the xp needed would be beyond crazy for one level cap.
AQW Epic  Post #: 50
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