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RE: Is a Knights of Order style team needed?

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4/19/2011 10:05:11   
Sparticus
Member

@megakyle777: I'm sorry but the off topic discussion you labeled as "the reason you need KoO" is precisely why we don't. Your misunderstanding stems from the lack of experience you have with the ED community. We have been dealing with balance issues in this manner, ie argue and debate on the forum, for many years. Almost all inroads to balancing this game come from the distillation of these debates into a cogent idea by the DEVs. Some ideas presented directly by the DEVs were less successful and I believe having ED KoO would pose the same dilemma. IMHO it is far better to rebalance the game after careful discussion between players and DEVs and not in some KoO chat between a few supposed experts on balance. You assume far too much about the ability of any small group of individuals to balance this game. I would suggest they would do just as much harm as good to this unique PVP game. I, like Fay Beee and many other Ed players, simply and respectfully disagree with the OP.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 51
4/19/2011 10:10:39   
megakyle777
Member

quote:

@megakyle777: I'm sorry but the off topic discussion you labeled as "the reason you need KoO" is precisely why we don't. Your misunderstanding stems from the lack of experience you have with the ED community. We have been dealing with balance issues in this manner, ie argue and debate on the forum, for many years. Almost all inroads to balancing this game come from the distillation of these debates into a cogent idea by the DEVs. Some ideas presented directly by the DEVs were less successful and I believe having ED KoO would pose the same dilemma. IMHO it is far better to rebalance the game after careful discussion between players and DEVs and not in some KoO chat between a few supposed experts on balance. You assume far too much about the ability of any small group of individuals to balance this game. I would suggest they would do just as much harm as good to this unique PVP game. I, like Fay Beee and many other Ed players, simply and respectfully disagree with the OP.


Then surely the problems would be sorted by now?

But anyway, I feel you misunderstand something here. You assume that the Community shall have no impact on balance if this was implemented. You are I am afraid wrong on this behalf. The KoO would of course see peoples opnions placed in an appropriate Balance part of these fourms on the matter and react accordingly. It's just they would have the final say, like the staff do now anyway.
DF  Post #: 52
4/19/2011 10:25:31   
Sparticus
Member

First off: Did the KoO groups disband in the other AE games? The answer is no. Balance is an ongoing thing and never ends. What makes you think that ED can ever be completely and finally balanced. Your presumptive argument is that balance is an endpoint but that idea is flawed.
quote:

Then surely the problems would be sorted by now?
Game rebalancing is a never ending thing and proof of this comes from every other AE game. The KoOs were not disbanded and those games are not completely balanced. ED is merely going through the same process without the need for another level of bureaucracy. To imply that your point is supported by a lack of a balance endpoint is disingenuous.

Lastly, I completely understand what you are saying. I am not confused, I know how the other AE games all function including the role of the KoOs. I understand how you propose to have that system work here in ED. Further explanation of a flawed system does not make it more palatable or desirable. I stick to my previous objections and disagree with the OP...... and please refrain from putting word in my mouth since I assume nothing of the sort.

quote:

You assume that the Community shall have no impact on balance if this was implemented. You are I am afraid wrong on this behalf.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 53
4/19/2011 10:30:50   
Mordred
Member

@Sparticus: The AQ KoO has not disbanded because their job isn't finished. They were called upon to handle thew regular releases as well, which interfered with their original plan. This in effect made them not KoO, but volunteer staff-members. Further, you have not said why this system is flawed. All you say is that it's flawed when AQ has proved that it isn't. The KoO of AQ work very well with the community, and they release all the numbers for everything. can ED boast that the players know the math behind their items?
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 54
4/19/2011 10:47:53   
Sparticus
Member

I don't seek to minimize the KoOs impact on other AE games, I also don't think I need to boast about how bright and capable ED players are in comparison but you force the issue none the less by challenging ED players competence.

quote:

can ED boast that the players know the math behind their items?


There are many threads here on the ED forum dedicated to "the math" of ED. Several players are extremely well educate on the mathematics of this game and I would submit that they are capable of making as good or better decisions then the DEVs.

I would submit that this is indeed a different situation. While the mathematics of calculating damage in a game like AQ is often complicated and somewhat made worse by who you are facing and what they can alter about your build, ED does not have those problems. The mathematics here are rather straight forward and as I stated before, many players are capable of making the calculations. The simple task of developing a usable build requires you to understand the "math". While most players emulate builds here, there are those who develop them and are certainly capable of doing the "Math".

I have stated before but let me state it clearly, I do not see how adding another layer of bureaucracy, another layer of insulation between the game DEVs and the players is beneficial to the players? I see how it would benefit the DEVs but I fail to see how it benefits the players to get marginalized. I'm sorry if that statement wasn't made plainly enough before for you to understand my point.

AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 55
4/19/2011 12:03:23   
Zean Zapple
Member

I agree Sparticus, adding another layer of power would just throw of the balance of ED's social community.


~Zean
Epic  Post #: 56
4/19/2011 12:06:08   
Mordred
Member

Again, you are thinking that the KoO would be between the staff and the players. This is NOT the case. No layers would be added, for the KoO would be staff/devs. There's no distinction, as can be seen with AQ. In fact, the KoO are VERY active on the forums, so I can't see what could be bad about an ED KoO group.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 57
4/19/2011 12:21:54   
Vick Vega
Member

I am all for balance. I think that is why you hear alot of up talk about the "good ol' days." Sure beta had its peoblems and people liked to complain about the techmages. Now, everyone is about the speed builds and fast grinding. I liked the longer battles of the past where you couldnt always predict the winner from round 1. Thats not to say that I like the new system where absurd blocks and crits sway far too many battles in some random direction. Anyhow, as far as KOO I support another set of eyes looking over the big picture and having delegated time to listen and sort the garbage from the workable ideas that constantly flow from the community. However, the items in AQW are mostly aesthetic and the stats have no real overarching influence on the game. Here, we are paying $10 per item. So I don’t want to buy the two new best items on the market for $20 bucks because the stats are awesome to have them nerfed seven times at the whims if a KOO team. We pay for power here not outfits, hats and accessories. It is a different dynamic than AQW in many ways.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 58
4/19/2011 13:08:07   
Sparticus
Member

quote:

Again, you are thinking that the KoO would be between the staff and the players. This is NOT the case. No layers would be added, for the KoO would be staff/devs. There's no distinction, as can be seen with AQ. In fact, the KoO are VERY active on the forums, so I can't see what could be bad about an ED KoO group.


Sigh, ED has several game developers who both design and repair the game, they are also the original game founders. There is an ongoing process to add more developers as the game requires. The current developers are capable of handling balance issues they deem require repair as they have recently demonstrated. Adding KoOs to ED is not the same as adding game developers, they would not be the same as the DEVs as you are implying. I am in favor of adding more game developers when needed since their function is more useful to the game but adding a group of individuals who are not equal with the game's DEV staff, who are not able to effect change without the DEV's permission and who do nothing but fiddle with the game becomes exactly what I described twice so far, another layer of unneeded bureaucracy. It will only get in the way of the real DEVs jobs. I don't see how adding more people who do less makes things better.

I'm sorry we disagree but I have a different opinion on the KoO then you. I do not find them as responsive to the general public as they are to you. Perhaps they are more familiar with some players then others and this relationship alters how they respond. I have no doubt this is also the case here in ED. Some players certainly have the "ear" of the DEVs and effect change quicker then others.

While this was interesting, I have nothing more to say on the topic. Register my opinion as "one" vote no and I'll move on.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 59
4/19/2011 13:09:45   
Zean Zapple
Member

There are no knights in ED! So therefore it just couldn't work Maybe Galactic Warriors of Order Still it's a no from me!


~Zean
Epic  Post #: 60
4/19/2011 13:26:04   
megakyle777
Member

Well, i did say in the title a KoO style team. i would assume that since it's space it would be like the Enforcers of Order or something.
DF  Post #: 61
4/19/2011 13:36:52   
Scott Reese
Member

They've established an informal means of distinguishing people who've helped out. I'm not privy to the info regarding who all has done work behind the scenes, but the EpicDuel Defender badge is one way of identifying those who've done so.

If they haven't rolled out a new tier of staff/developers yet, its probably because the outfit is running smoothly enough for the moment. As the need grows, they'll expand accordingly and I'm sure the community will play a part in that.
Epic  Post #: 62
4/19/2011 13:42:19   
Mordred
Member

@Sparticus: Again, you are assuming that they'd not be devs. The KoO are in fact the devs of AQ, and it would be hardly different here. They would not get in the way of the devs, they would help them.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 63
4/19/2011 18:12:43   
InceptionAE
Member

Not supported.

And to the one who said lets have more then just "supported" If we discuss there will be more of an argument.

Especially since in every update I hear complaining. It's like everyone took drugs and went nuts over one small thing.

_____________________________

ED~ Inception X
HS~ Chromium
AQW~ Deathblad
AQ3D~ Violent

AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 64
4/19/2011 18:22:29   
helloguy
Member

The only reason i don't support this,is because i wouldn't trust who ever the admins chose to be in charge of balance.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 65
4/19/2011 18:22:41   
Mordred
Member

Can you explain why you don't support?
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 66
4/19/2011 19:24:15   
He Who Lurks
Member

Is a KoO team needed? Yes, but I doubt anyone here fits that description. I can guess by the pre-assumptions of a "KoO" like EpicDuel team listed in this thread that many players don't realize who they are. I've once tried to create a balance team in the old ED forums but that toppled over :/. We need members with at least a college education(or knows math well) to mimic some of the stuff the KoO have done. Creating such a team would require time.
AQ Epic  Post #: 67
4/19/2011 19:54:14   
ED Prince of Shadows
Member

EpicDuel is not perfect, in fact, it is far from perfect. But these arguments must stop! I know that balance isn't at its best but at least we are close enough for me to be satisfied. I think that the idea of organizing a team would take more time then just letting the mods do their job ([hint]surprisingly even Mods help with balance[/hint]).

One question is: How do you think a "KoO style team" would do a better job then staff working hard at this very moment?

_____________________________
AQW Epic  Post #: 68
4/20/2011 2:46:21   
megakyle777
Member

quote:

And to the one who said lets have more then just "supported" If we discuss there will be more of an argument.

Especially since in every update I hear complaining. It's like everyone took drugs and went nuts over one small thing.


But if there is no discussion on the matter the topic will be locked.

And it is because of the complaning that I posted this.
DF  Post #: 69
4/20/2011 9:40:51   
PD
Member
 

 I'm not sure where to side on this arguement. This is what I see as the benefits of a Balance Team (I won't say KoO as they aren't affiliated with ED):

  • More time for Devs to make new weapons, content, features, ect, meaning more updates, more often, with more quality and quantity. Storyline advancement anyone?
  • Balance Problems would be solved faster, meaning less time needed to spend on Balance updates.
  • Staff take on less heat from the public as their role would merely be changed so that they don't influence updates anymore.

    Dispite these advantages, I can also say that balance can be achieved without the means of an actual balance team. Xendran and I have basically come up with the concepts to do so already. The only thing to do now is to set them in motion. But when that happens, I (and perhaps everyone else here) will never know. :P

    Also, I'll say that if a Balance team IS made, you would need to pick the most select people in the community; People who know what they're doing, and know what the solutions are, as well as having a fond knowledge of the game's mechanics, and maintain good relations with the community, not isolate themselves from it.

    • Post #: 70
    4/20/2011 9:58:33   
    Tiago X
    Member

    		How can people be so stubborn, really.
    A KoO-like team (Idk how many are there in AQ) with 4-5 people , since ED is not THAT big, wold solve many balance problems. Reasonable people such as Dax, PD(SUP), Xendran and Wiseman, veteran players who've been around for quite a while, and I think woldn't mind helping out the community, as they have contributed a lot with balance suggestions, and have participated in many debates about it, being right most of the times.
    DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 71
    4/20/2011 11:41:13   
    Cinderella
    Always a Princess


    		 There are several problems with having a KOO type group. One is populating it- I told Nightwraith to fill it with people who "know numbers, but not necessarily fun" who don't have an emotional attachment to the game, and had enough experience with AS3 to implement changes.

    Edit: I did not mean to imply that this is a given, or that there are plans to implement a KOO style group. I see now how my language was ambiguous. I merely meant that, IF such a group was implemented this is the type of person I believe could do the best job of implementing balance, and I told Nightwraith as much.

    < Message edited by Cinderella -- 4/20/2011 12:45:59 >
    Post #: 72
    4/20/2011 11:49:27   
    PD
    Member
     

    		 @Cinderella: I already know 3 people (not including myself) who fit that description. I think 3 people is enough to have a fully functioning balance team. :3

    I believe you too would agree with the choices I have in mind...

    < Message edited by PD -- 4/20/2011 11:59:32 >
    Post #: 73
    4/20/2011 12:01:30   
    Vick Vega
    Member

    		Here is the deal. It’s not just about having played the game and having the insight to make little balance tweaks. I would say that the ED system is one of the best balanced games when comparing a paying player to a free player currently on the market. I hear all the boohooing from the free players that they can’t win “enough.” Go try one of the other 15 games on the market with cash shops and payment options and tell me how different it feels there when you grind out a level 20 character and a level 1 noob who just bought the $30 noob pack decimates you. On most of the other games of this type the free players aren’t crying about not winning enough, they are crying about not being able to win EVER! To first level characters in some cases! So, even though we, me included, are critical of the overall game system and balance, we really have a pretty level playing field here when compared to other games. Don’t get me wrong, there are a few games that have made it their focus to keep the free players VERY equal (FAXION ) for example. We’ll see how the $$$ shakes out for that mentality. But overall ED is offering a money for power model that is flexible enough that two crits and a block (WHICH HAPPENS A LOT) can win the game for a free player. The system is more stable than we give it credit for, but on the other hand, it is delicate enough that it must be looked after by STAFF not players to make game breaking decisions with huge financial implications for ED.
    And again I will say let us not compare any of this to AQW. It is not the same in any way. Deciding is a boss is too tough for everyone, a quest is too long, or whether the next hat they release should be pink or purple is not the same as balancing a game solely focused on PVP.
    In general I would have to say because of the resources available to the ED team and the current situation it’s a no vote from me with a possible change of heart if certain changes take place in the future.


    < Message edited by Vick Vega -- 4/20/2011 12:03:58 >
    AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 74
    4/20/2011 13:51:24   
    igfod13
    Member

    		I read the forums often and I almost never post, but this is an issue that I believe can make a HUGE difference.

    First of all, ED is currently rather unbalanced, but it is approaching a more balanced state. However, to achieve better balance, there really needs to be a group of people that have high understanding in math and statistics(like the KoO in AQ) that go through the ALL THE STATS to balance the game. Right now things are being balanced in this way: people complain about OPed or UPed builds and Titan and Nightwraith try to fix this(like the focus update). There NEEDS to be more mathematical computation going into ED's battle system and I highly doubt that Titan and Nightwraith have the time to do this with so many people complaining about wanting more weps, battle modes, etc... I understand that many people may feel uncomfortable with changing how the stats work, but it is something that really needs to be looked at more in-depth, rather than having more of a trial and error system that Titan and Nightwraith currently use with balance.

    Second of all, many weapons are outdated and are VERY imbalanced. There ABSOLUTELY NEEDS to be a standard for weapon creation and stats or as mentioned by a few people before, or else stat inflation will get out of hand. A large portion of the KoO's job in AQ is to balance weapons and other items. Even if people do not want a KoO in ED to touch the battle system, there still needs to be BALANCE AMONG WEAPONS. This is something that needs to be done, and Titan and Nightwraith definitely do not have the time to go through hundreds of weapons fixing their stats. THIS IS THE REAL REASON WHY WE NEED KoO. It's to fix the weapons. If noone tries to fix weapons, you're gonna have to go through years of balancing items, even as more weapons are being made, like the AQ KoO is doing now. Someone needs to do this and Titan and Nightwraith should be spending time developing new game content, so why not have a KoO?

    Finally, I don't think you guys fully understand how the KoO works. They are INCREDIBLY attached to AQ and that's what we need in ED. ED needs it moreso because this is a PvP game, and balance is more important here than in AQ. If a KoO team does do its job in ED, there really shouldn't be complaining about OPed or UPed builds anymore. It just means that your build is not very good.

    @Cinderella: I have to disagree with you. You NEED someone that is attached to this game. They need to love this game enough to basically volunteer their time going through the mechanics of this game. Many people have already tried to do this themselves by going through the game's math and trying to make balance suggestions(i.e. Xendran), so there are definitely enough people to implement a small KoO style team. If you look at Lord Barrius, Kalanyr, Chii, etc, they love the game and love the community and do their job FOR THE COMMUNITY. They need a high understanding of the game and its history. It's people like Wiseman, just look at his OPed builds post; its clear that people already have a sense of how balanced can be achieved. The KoO of AQ are doing a tremendous job, so it's a good model for ED to follow.

    Sorry for the long post. I could probably write an essay on this. xD
    -okdude

    Edit: I feel like there is not enough trust for a KoO in ED. Balance is one of the most important issues right now, and the KoO can fix it. The complaining and trial and error system Titan and Nightwraith are running won't. I don't understand why you guys don't trust people like Wiseman to fix this game! YOU WILL NEVER KNOW UNTIL YOU TRY IT OUT. A KoO is probably the best solution towards balance, and honestly I think it needs to be implemented ASAP before there are too many items to fix. If you still don't trust a KoO style team, go to the AQ forums and look at what they have done and how they interact with the community.(They have a black knight next to their name.) The KoO are honestly great, they will make some decisions that YOU WILL HATE, but they will be made because they have to made, so there is no other choice but to adapt.

    < Message edited by igfod13 -- 4/20/2011 14:00:22 >
    AQ Epic  Post #: 75
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