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8/27/2011 12:43:11   
PD
Member
 

Note: Posted with Permission from Lord Barrius

First, I'll start with a Parable...

A Powerful King once sat on a throne. The King before him, gave him his military knowledge and his knowledge of the basic sciences and politics. But he didn't teach him manners. This backfired in the end. When the new king took his rightful throne, he thought he was better than everyone else in the royal court. He dismissed his advisers, lawmen, and his even his own treasury minister. He thought he could do it all. He was a rich King after all. Because he ran the show all by himself, he quickly saw the workload he was given because he vowed to do it all himself. All the laws, all the financial papers, all the royal decrees. But he didn't care. He was the king.

He carelessly raised taxes to the people, made the wealthy tax exempt, conducted public terror displays to show his authority. He conducted military expeditions in an attempt to subdue more people into his realm. He even installed a Harem house in his own palace. He thought what he was doing was good.

But what was really happening was that the king was neglecting the kingdom. The peasants rioted. The Nobles gave threats of joining the enemy kings. The Army threatened to overthrow him in a bloody coup. But he didn't care. He was the king. And he had money, so he indulged on his birthrights and his lavish possessions, complaining if he has anything with a quality less than "Royalty". But as he continued to engage in his reckless and lavish lifestyle, his kingdom was on the verge of collapse. The neighboring warlords were conquering his territory acre by acre. The people started to get REALLY angry by that point. Soon, the people killed the king in his bed, but it was too late; The kingdom was in shambles, and everything was ruined.


How you think that is relevant to the topic I'm going to talk about today... You figure that out.

Either way, there are a lot of problems in Epicduel. I don't think that we can blame any single group of people out there. In fact, It's sort of like Racism (Except it applies to certain groups of players, or people who deride player classes other than their own class).

Now I don't know about you, but the way this system has been inculcated is inherently player-ist/class-ist. It is inherently made to cause inequality, therefore a mass amount of social problems.

You're probably going to deny this. But tell me...

Why DO we have the varium and non-varium gap? Unless the system created this deliberately, this should not exist. But it does. To deny this is to deny that Varium and its inherent advantages do not exist.

But... to every effect, there is an cause. I don't think that it was anything to do with the Greed of the developers. No. It was far from that. Rather, I'l going to shift my ground and focus to my admonishment not to the staff; But to the players.

When I mean player, I mean YOU. Yes YOU. The Player YOU. You whom are behind that computer/laptop monitor reading this sentence right now.

I'll be truthful and cogent about this: It's the player's fault. Not the Developer's fault.

It has to do with the belief of entitlements and rewards of status. I'll give an affluent example: Founders get Founder Armor, continual buffs, Beta Weapons, Badges, and more. We demand our benefits to the point where it stops actual and necessary reforms from taking place. We ask for more and more and more. It's just becoming mindless begging. Then after we get our entitlements, we still cry that we've gotten too little. The cycle does not stop. Our pride makes it so that it becomes harder and harder to admit we've been wrong the entire time.

Now understand that that was just an example. In fact, I myself an a Founder. However, I have never asked for an entitlement. I have superseded that stereotype. It's not anything to do with founders. In fact, it had nothing to do with just founders. They're just one part of the collective unit actually ruining the game. the burden of the actual problem lies not in one group. We try to make it that easy. It's not like that. We've made the problem that convoluted.

The problem rather lies with the entire community.

To have this be more understandable, let me talk about a little back-story.

A long time ago, Epicduel used to be a small student project by Jonathan Duran and Bernie Schmalzried (Alongside with Bigtuna) at Youngstown University. They Graduated together (They are now both 26-27 year old), and from there, Epicduel grew. At first they were a small time gaming company in something called Epic Inventions. They grew at a normal rate during Epicduel Alpha, which was in February 2009 to some time in Late 2009. Then, Artix Entertainment, quickly expanding, acquired Epicduel in December of that year. They grew REALLY fast that time. The rest is pretty much history.

But there is an important part that I mentioned. I said "small time". Now... back before Artix entertainment came into the picture, Epicduel was a small company with no fewer than 1000 active players. Because of this, the developers didn't receive high expectations from the players. Yes, they pushed themselves anyways. And yes, there were high expectations, but there's a difference between high and achievable, and high and unreasonable.

On the meanwhile, on the Artix Entertainment front, the developers are working in sweaty fashion to churn up regular releases every single week. This highly differs from the side of Epicduel, whose casual base does not require weekly updates to satisfy players. It doesn't. When AE acquired Epicduel, Titan had to adopt a much larger family of players with greater expectations. They had to adjust to the schedule - Regular releases with regular updates. It was fast paced for John and Bernie. They couldn't keep up with everyone's requests. There were just too many of us for them to handle.

People from Artix entertainment get MAD when they don't get what they want. I am admitting I have done this a few times in the past. We all have. To say you haven't... you're a liar. And a big fat one too.

We have to understand that the Player's expectations have doubled, but our developing staff has not. Neither have their resources to handle things.

A thing I do not get the most is that we the Players say that AE ruined Epicduel. Specifically the players. But... let me ask you this...

How many of us did not come from AE's playerbase? That's right. Almost nobody. And to those who fit into the exception clause... well.. You can't just complain in order to get things done. Do something to change stuff. I'm not sure how this works. We're players from Artix entertainment... but we also say that Players from Artix entertainment ruined Epicduel.

But at the same time, most (if not all by now) of the players are from Epicduel. And when we declare that "<insertspecialinterestsgrouphere> is the best", this is pretty confusing. The only logical non-obfusticated conclusion that I can think of from that is that we ARE the problem. But then this contradicts that thought that the certain interest group in question is the best. Unless... it had something to do with self-pride rather than legitimate claim....

But in all seriousness, I could probably go to the ED GD, and find a thread that had something to do with promoting a group, demoting a group, or even something about entitlements. It gives me great pain that things like this still happen even with Lord Barrius's potent reforms. It hurts me dearly.

A lot of this can be solved if many of the balance problems are solved. That side is getting minor progress, but this side is much more different. Let me say this...

There are NO "Gamma Player Problems", or "Founder Problems" or "Delta Player Problems" or "Varium Problems" or " Non-Varium Problems" or any other "Group Problems". They are HUMAN problem and BEHAVIOR problems, conditioned by your player environment.

In all reality, the reason people act as they do is because they were conditioned. They are not inherently responsible for their problems. And no, I'm not dodging their sense of responsibility. I'm not defending them either. The point is that they act as they do now because you made them that way.

A Delta player does not learn the Game vernacular unless they see someone from an earlier player generation do it. They don't learn "f4f" until they become aware of it either through seeing others do it, or by seeing the feature through surprise. They don't know about it until contacted through a specific medium. The Medium is the environment. They don't see what overpowered is until they see someone rambling about a self-perceived balance problem(s). They are not inherently bred to be the "Bane of us all". You made them that way, so it's really a reflection of what you were like in general. People don't rationally copy builds until they are conditioned to see how good it is.

There's a whole medium of things that happen because of their environment. And the Players... well... we ARE the environment. If you want to actually change the game for the better, start with the conditioned environment. I don't expect people to become more desirable until the environment itself is changed to foster all people on an equal social ground.

And another thing I'd like to start talking about it the fact of money. People really do not know how the process in a game works - The money you buy for AE is the money they use to further game development. It is NOT an inherent birthright to more power. In fact, they shouldn't even give people rewards. It's pretty selfish to demand something you do not deserve. Money itself has an arbitrary value, so no "But I paid for it it's worth $X dollars!". The items you use to buy special items is just symbolically a thing that shows you were actually crazy enough to invest in the game itself. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a fun game full of content rather than a one ran by profit motive, player embezzlement, and greed on an acceptable and systematic scale.

Additionally, I'd like to explain how Inflation in the game was created by players. When Frostbane came out, it was the ultimate weapon of which people wanted to have. Because it was the ultimate, if people found weapons any less powerful than it, then they wouldn't buy it. The result? It created a dangerous situation for ED. Understand that before this, no weapon before it was ever that powerful. Frostbane stepped up the game many times more. It made a point of no return.

If we don't recognize the selfish and stupid pride inculcated within groups of people... I do not know what to say. Essentially, after the point of which Frostbane was released into the game, all future rares were "blessed" with the "Birthright" of "All Rares Should be equally if not more powerful than the last series of rare weapons".

You see, it's not so much the developer's fault that the game's balance got ruined than it is the players whom are inevitably affected and reflect the environment they live upon. In fact, it's much more the player's fault that the balance got ruined. Because of these greedy players, ED is now the epitome of modern capitalism: Mindless, reckless spending, low quality products, poor productivity, Harmful competition, inherent Bigotry, and a dis-reflection of the well-being of the state of happiness within the community. If it really came to the point where Game Theory prevailed in the end... we are truly forsakened.

If we fail to recognize that the players are more at fault than the actual developers are... I wish to stop playing ED and take no part in it's ailing state. At all.

< Message edited by PD -- 8/27/2011 14:27:03 >
Post #: 1
8/27/2011 12:46:53   
voidance
Member

Lol 10,000 word count ftw?
AQW Epic  Post #: 2
8/27/2011 12:49:27   
PD
Member
 

2017 Words without spaces. But that is far from the point. If you cannot admit that your actions are directly responsible for everything that's going on... I might as well go take a Tire Iron and start dismantling ED as if I were killing a person in a partial or complete vegetative state.
Post #: 3
8/27/2011 12:50:40   
MirageD
Member

excuse me???????......are you suggesting that we all become communists??

LB?....i can't believe you authorized this thread....fgs.....give me a break ...

< Message edited by MirageD -- 8/27/2011 12:52:47 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 4
8/27/2011 12:52:24   
Retrosaur
Member
 

Excellent point PD, it really does shed some light on the situation. Anyways, I read the entire thing, YOU should spend the time to read it as well.

< Message edited by hypedxlord -- 8/27/2011 12:56:50 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 5
8/27/2011 12:52:50   
Jatar The Legend
Member

Wow.
DF  Post #: 6
8/27/2011 12:52:48   
PD
Member
 

Communism is NOT the same as taking responsibility for your actions. Or more accurately, the collective community.

I have given no implication for us to be communist. I am only telling people to be responsible for our actions.
Post #: 7
8/27/2011 12:57:14   
SouL Prisoner
Member

btw who R u ? PD??

AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 8
8/27/2011 12:59:04   
Jatar The Legend
Member

I'll say this: Without players, there is no game. Even if it was our fault for ruining this game, there wouldn't be any game without us.
DF  Post #: 9
8/27/2011 13:00:19   
Retrosaur
Member
 

@PD
That's right. Our actions have caused the entire system of ED to collapse. In Beta, before Frostbane came out, as PD mentioned, we actually had weekly releases that people actually looked forward to. People wouldn't complain about balance, and instead talked about the various aspects of the game and such.

@above
Your forgetting, there were still a large size of players before Beta, Gamma, and Delta, and this happened WAY before the merger. Remember that.



< Message edited by hypedxlord -- 8/27/2011 13:01:21 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 10
8/27/2011 13:01:57   
Laces
Member

This makes quite a bit of sense. Your right PD. I didn't know the whole history thing and such but I agree with you. Though, especially in this forum, You should shorten the length so more people actually take the time to read it.
AQW Epic  Post #: 11
8/27/2011 13:03:44   
Jatar The Legend
Member

And I suppose that it was the player's over-complaining that caused the Dev's to slow down their releases? I mean really? How many delays have there been, like, 3 or 4 in the past couple of releases?
@Hyp: I was here in Alpha, I know that Lol....

< Message edited by Jatar The Legend -- 8/27/2011 13:04:28 >
DF  Post #: 12
8/27/2011 13:06:01   
Laces
Member

@Jatar

Would you like to play a game that your being constantly flamed no matter what you do? Would you want to update that game as much as you can? No matter what the Devs do, they're flamed for it. Its not that, but the High expectations from AE that expect a weekly release without updates is what killed the game. People asked for more then what NW and Titan could handle. Remember, this was a small project and people at the time were satisfied with the game as it was.

The delays have been because of Adobe. Would you rather have an update on time and lose something important in your inventory or wait a day and have the update bug free?

quote:

Otherwise we might end up deleting important stuff by mistake. At a certain point, the numbers start moving!




< Message edited by Laces -- 8/27/2011 13:07:56 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 13
8/27/2011 13:08:02   
Retrosaur
Member
 

@Jatar
Sorry about that, I assumed you were a "Player who joined during the merger".
AQW Epic  Post #: 14
8/27/2011 13:09:45   
Callisto
Member

I've read it all and you do make good points but I disagree in some parts.You seem to blame EVERYBODY when in fact,there are people who tried to make a difference.People who gave few excellent ideas,suggestions,who contributed in many good ways.I could name few but I don't think that's necessary.

Their ideas were never listened to,like it meant nothing.How do you explain that?How do you explain the fact that even the good things get ignored?
And even better question,how can we change anything if every good idea we make gets completely ignored?

There is very little communication between players and people responsible for changes.
In conclusion I'd say you're right,it's players fault but not entirely and not everybody's.Majority is the way you described it,immature, selfish,power hungry etc. and those very few who are not cannot fight against it alone.

< Message edited by Callisto -- 8/27/2011 13:12:14 >


_____________________________

AQW Epic  Post #: 15
8/27/2011 13:12:57   
Jatar The Legend
Member

@ Laces: Evidently ED thought it was ready to join AE but IMO, it wasn't. They joined a company known for its weekly updates, great online games, and new and innovative things to do every week. When you join perhaps the largest online gaming company in America, these players are going to expect results. That's only natural and logical. I am not one to flame for no reason. I believe that if there's nothing wrong, you shouldn't complain. But I feel that there IS something TREMENDOUSLY wrong in ED. I disagree with this post, because It cannot be just the players' fault. We aren't the ones who create the game I know, however, we are the ones who play it. We're the testers so to speak, we post what we feel is wrong with the game and we expect to see some sort of change to it. Whether these expectations are too high or too low, thats all a matter of opinion, but I feel that if we're going to spend money on a game, that money should do something to help it out, to progress it, to move it along. My money certainly hasn't.

@Hyp: No problem. :)

@Calli: I agree mostly with what you're saying, I just find it incredible that this guy would have the nerve to diss all of ED when in fact there are some people (I consider myself one of them) who are trying to fight to save it.

< Message edited by Jatar The Legend -- 8/27/2011 13:15:21 >
DF  Post #: 16
8/27/2011 13:13:05   
Lord Barrius
Member
 

I authorized this thread because I believe in having everyone's viewpoints be permitted in this forum. Do you have a problem with that, MirageD?

With that said, if this thread veers into flaming, it'll be locked, so let's keep this discussion constructive and thoughtful. Heated debate is okay, but don't go overboard.
Post #: 17
8/27/2011 13:13:25   
9001WaysToLaugh
Member

I agree with you completely. We are the ones who ruined the game. Also, to those who want an update every week, would you rather have quality, or quantity?

< Message edited by 9001WaysToLaugh -- 8/27/2011 13:17:13 >
Epic  Post #: 18
8/27/2011 13:16:25   
Laces
Member

At least they started working:

From NW's twitter:

quote:

Stick wa-wa-wah workin' on a Saturdaaaaaay-yay. I don't think that's a real song.
AQW Epic  Post #: 19
8/27/2011 13:17:12   
Jatar The Legend
Member

@ Laces: Thats comforting. :D
DF  Post #: 20
8/27/2011 13:24:38   
Laces
Member

@Jatar

Yes yes it is
AQW Epic  Post #: 21
8/27/2011 13:24:59   
Yo son
Member

^lol!
Post #: 22
8/27/2011 13:29:01   
BloodRainbow
Member

Great post PD, this is one of those things that needed to be said, but no one wants to hear.
Epic  Post #: 23
8/27/2011 13:29:53   
DeathGuard
Member

Seriously LB, I have seen better and more constructive threads than this, and they've been locked. This is saying we have the fault and take our responsabilities? I now that and I learned since a little kid, no one has to come to say me that neither say it to others. Different perspectives about this thread?
quote:

Is not constructive.
It's just another flaming thread.
It offends most of the users than don't even flamed.

I have been waiting silently for the updates and have been delayed, and I didn't even flamed the devs, instead I said the flamers it was not their fault.
You know something, we need a free way to express our thoughts and we're being silent.
I don't know why this thread is open, LB what you thinking about having this thread open? More flaming will rage since saying to the community they've ruined the game won't do nothing.

< Message edited by cyberbakio ryugan -- 8/27/2011 13:31:31 >
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 24
8/27/2011 13:30:00   
Calogero
Member

@ Venturer, Uhm I mean PD :P

You have a point, perhaps the vast amount of players from ED joining ED all at ones became a bit to much for them to handle.
But then again, We don't get mad about it being delayed, we get mad about when they say they are about to release and 5 mins before the
actual release they say ' Postponed ', with no actual reason except their word.
An AK earlier showed us screenshots of what the problem was, Shure we are still bummed that it's delayed but we have a bigger view at the problem.

Edited out off-topic content. Use PM system. ~Syr

< Message edited by Syr Frostbite -- 8/27/2011 20:05:52 >


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