Home  | Login  | Register  | Help  | Play 

RE: Broken credit earning system

 
Logged in as: Guest
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Artix Entertainment Games] >> [EpicDuel] >> EpicDuel General Discussion >> RE: Broken credit earning system
Page 2 of 3<123>
Forum Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
11/3/2011 20:39:08   
AQWPlayer
Member

quote:

32-15000 credits==469 wins
33-14000 credits==438 wins

Lolz
AQW  Post #: 26
11/3/2011 20:41:21   
H4ll0w33n
Member

@above
Its the FIRST ITEM i chose, if i wanted a very accurate reading I would add all the items in that category up and find the average but like I said I dont have that much time on my hands to spend dealing with this. =P

< Message edited by H4ll0w33n -- 11/3/2011 20:42:00 >
Post #: 27
11/3/2011 22:37:21   
frogbones
Banned


The main issue that this topic brings up (at least for me) is the glaring difference between earning wins and buying them for Varium users vs. non-variums.

You could say that non-Variums really do have to earn their wins and be smarter with their money compared to Variums. It really is too bad people can just come in and buy their way to the top.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 28
11/4/2011 3:27:31   
Drianx
Member

@Halloween
No, lower levels won't have an easier time, because ALL of them would benefit from credit earning increase, not only some of them. Basically players will have the chance to fight each other fully equipped, not naked and holding a stick. And of course, this would aloow them to experiment, otherwise you can't really be creative with builds when all you have is a wrist blade that gives +4 dex.

One more thing that I find important: with raising credit earning and granting access to more weapons and credit enhancements for more people, the staff has the chance to prove that enhancements were truly implemented to expand the game experience, and not only to milk money from cap level varium players.

And yes, an alternative to increasing credit earning would be to implement random weapon drops (no primaries, just guns and auxes) from all fights, not just NPCs. This way players would be able to sell these weapons in order to get more credits.
AQW Epic  Post #: 29
11/4/2011 4:24:58   
H4ll0w33n
Member

@Drianx
What I ment by lower levels having a easier time is that they will be able to afford items faster. If credit prices doubled then at level 1 instead of 3 wins it would be 1.5, The problem with this is that the initial cost of items is going to be too low. Im not going to deal with creativity because thats a matter of opinion not fact, and to prove a point you need facts :P.

I already stated the flaws with raising credit earning but ill restate it, raising credit prices does allow access to weapons+enhancements BUT it makes getting extras like class change a lot easier which it shouldn't, if you increase the credits per level then the amount of wins needed will stay significantly similar therefore making the game less challenging and rewarding.
Let say level 1 you get 32 creds then you get 5 more per level. at level 33 you will have 197 credits.
14000/197= 72 wins to get the item (considering that you have a 100% win rate)
and at 1 you would need 3.
The difference between level 1 and 33 is only by 91 wins and that is very small in the way epicduel is laid out (In one day someone could get all 4 essential items+extra). Also if you got 115-165 more credits than a level 1-10 class change becomes a big issue because of the ease of it, varium will be spent less on these and less on enhancements which is a drop in profits. Theres obviously more detail i can provide but theres only so much i can write at 2AM so ill leave it at that.

Having weapon drops in all fights defeats the purpose of arcade, if you can get credits from normal battles then whats the difference between arcade, if the drops are 20 a sell then people with a little inv. space would have issues dealing with this. lets say a non varium has 18/20 slots then it creates the hassle that he would need to go to sell his drops every 2 items he got. Obviously this would have to have a med-high drop chance to be effective so it would therefore lead on to lag on the servers because of all the processing needed. It also causes inconvenience.
quote:

Drianx They wouldn't adjust the arcade drop rate because it would "Flood the Epicduel economy with credits"~Titan EDF

Adding items for drops is essentially adjusting the arcade drops in a way because your adding new items which is new %. right now its 0% for a random item to drop but if you add it then it will go up by 1% or more obviously. So what is going to happen is it is like increasing arcade drops to a much bigger and effective scale leading to flood of epicduel economy with credits.

Why increasing credits is bad is also because it adds more coding and work. If only pricing increases steadily then thats only one thing you would need to worry about. If you increase credits dropped then the staff would need to account for the credits increase relative to the items cost and accounting for progressive difficulty. What i mean by progressive difficulty is that you dont want only a 91 win difference. You also cant raise the entire credits won per situation by 2x or 3x or whatever because on the sudden changes in pricing on weapons which is what is flawed it would be much much easier for lower levels ranging from 1-24.


NOTE: if you do want to argue about my statement please provide facts, i dont to deal opinions because you cant prove anything with them unless its in a large, collective, educated opinion. Like you might think TLM is OPed but thats a opinion, theres no actual facts you provided that is mathematically proving it is OPed.

Sorry if i left stuff unclear or in a poor quality, im really tired xD
Post #: 30
11/4/2011 5:46:51   
Drianx
Member

You must have missed the facts then, they are posted in the first post. The whole fact is that either credit earning is way too low, or credit weapons and enhancements are overpriced for their level. And that is proven with numbers in the first post.

'flooding the ED economy with credits' is an empty statement. If you want to speak about facts, don't quote it, it is just an opinion.

I agree that arcade prizes and class change should be scaled accordingly. If credit earning is boosted by 3x, so should class have the price multiplied x3. I have said this countless times in this topic: this is aimed to help players with weapons and enhancements only - and not class change and others.

And if you want a bit of offtopic theory about class change, here it is: class change should actually be an opportunity to explore and test other classes, and not to switch to the next overpowered one. The balance should be so good that class change should NOT be prevented, but should remain a cool option. Looking for methods to prevent class change abuse means admitting that class balance is crap, and this is a wrong reason to suppress credit earning increase.

< Message edited by Drianx -- 11/4/2011 5:47:20 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 31
11/4/2011 7:34:10   
Basicball
Member

quote:

CREDITS FROM DEATHS BECAUSE IT WOULD JUST MAKE IT MORE CONFUSING.

if you leave out things like credits from deaths, credits from beating higher levels, credits you get at the start of the game, credits earned from missions, credits earned from the arcade,...
sure, you'll have an easy time calculating, you'll also have highly inaccurate results.

therefore, your results arn't trustworthy

_____________________________

AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 32
11/4/2011 8:33:34   
Drianx
Member

^I'm holding the cat by her tail still you say it has no tail.

Of course there may be a slight variation from my calculations, but you're denying the obvious. If you read carefully, I've also estimated the credit gain of a good player, with 2:1 wins. So, anyone between a win ratio of 1:1 and 2:1 is suffering from lacking credits. Does that interval cover your exceptions?

I expect you to say next that anyone has a chance to win arcade jackpot every single turn. Don't say it, because it is stupid.

< Message edited by Drianx -- 11/4/2011 8:34:29 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 33
11/4/2011 8:59:30   
RageSoul
Member

I'm so tired of too much farming so i support this idea . Now the only thing's left is the dev's approval of implementation .
AQW Epic  Post #: 34
11/4/2011 9:39:17   
Basicball
Member

By my calcullations, as soon as you are level 25 (so at the beginning of the level, not at the end), you have right about 25468 credits if you have a 1/1 win record. 19656 are from wins, 702 from the arcade and 5110 from misions and starting cred at the beginning of the game.
in my calculations, it takes 468 wins (so 936 total fights)

Font size edited. Please don't use font sizes bigger than 3. Your was 5. ~Mecha



< Message edited by Mecha Mario -- 11/4/2011 21:09:45 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 35
11/4/2011 11:57:53   
Drianx
Member

OK, subtract those 5110 credits from missions that I did not count, and we're about there; which makes us both untrustworthy eh? :D
AQW Epic  Post #: 36
11/4/2011 12:09:22   
Basicball
Member

wel, you took 20 cred /fight, i took 42 per win an loss together, +1.5 cred/ win and loss together out of the arcade.

so, i have 3.5 cred/ win and loss (or 1.75 per fight) more then you.

so i admit, you estimated guess of 20/ fight is quite good.
i'll do the math for 2/1 records later, and i'll try uploading the excell files, if not today, prob on monday.

P.S.: i didn't count the 1.8K gained from the antimatter mission, as it's to hard to get before you're 25
P.S.S.: with these calculations, it takes 2182 wins (4364 fights) to get 100K cred ^^

ok, so you can find my calculations in the following excell file (you'll prob have to download it)
Page 1 is for a 50% win record (1/1)
Page 2 is for a 66% win record (2/1)
Page 7 is for a 75% win record (3/1)

in the 'Level' Collum, you'll see that it only goes up to 25, that's because i only made it to detect up to then, as that was the level used in the original post

http://localhostr.com/file/cMiX107/Cred%20per%20lvl.xlsx

EDIT: whoops, double posted :s
Could someone merge them please? sorry for the inconvienience

Posts Merged. ~Dax

< Message edited by Dax -- 11/4/2011 13:32:41 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 37
11/4/2011 20:08:46   
H4ll0w33n
Member

@Drianx

Credit earning is too low isnt the problem here, its the cost of the items rising at a larger rate than it needs to be. Like i said if you say credits earning is too low and you decide to increase it then it would only help out the weapon costs and enhancements, it would ruin the balenced cost class change, war kills (credits), boosters, bikes, bots, ect.
if you were to say then raise the credit cost of classes, war kills, ect then that adds confusion, lets say you went from level 20-21, you will expect to need 10000 credits for mortar but if it increases it adds hassle to the players to go check on how much they need. This is defaintly a solution but it isnt the best one. Now we say increase credit per level:
the problem with this is that your going to have to spend time finding out how to keep the game progressively more challenging and by not increasing it with too much credits, also pricing of items would be harder because of the fact that every level has a price point where you need to check if its overpriced or under priced. If you decide to just change the item cost but not the credit cost then that is only one category you need to worry about. for example every level the price of weapons increase by 225 then it is pretty easy to find out how much a item costs. If you choose to increase credits it be like:(hypothetical situation) at level one you need 14 credits per fight but next level it will increase by 2 then 4 then 9 then 14 then 3 then 1 then 59, you see where im getting at? it adds confusion and makes the game look less organized and random. my facts proving this will happen is in my first post, where the amount of credits needed for the next level weapon is random.


Raising arcade drops will indeed lead to flooding of credits which then leads to inflation. That is the opposite of what we want unless we can successfully reach equilibrium to where it helps players afford items but not to the point that it becomes excessive.
"Flooding Epicduel with credits isnt a opinion it is a fact because if you raise drop % then you can safely say more people will win therefore more credits will be in the system. If it was a opinion it be somewhat like "If arcade drops increased then it would negatively affect the epicduel economy. The fact that it is going to put more credits into the system is a fact but its how you infer the statement, you can say its positive because it lets players afford things but you can also say its negative because it leads to inflation and that will raise the credit prices of items. Lets say you have 1/100 chance of winning 1000 credits, then after 100 you have 1000 in theory. Then if you increase it to 5/100 chance, you have 5000 credits after 100 battles in theory. Now put this situation into a mass scale. This will defiantly cause ED to have a lot of credits. I proved that it is negative and why it isn't positive, if you want to argue about that point then i suggest you provide some actual data that proves it wont ruin the system. The reason why this is hard to prove is because we dont have all the information we need like how many people use arcade daily and how many prizes are won. You and I cant make accurate arguments about this but we can get close by using numbers to prove it.

I do know the reason is to help afford enhancements and weapons but there are side effects that end up affecting other things and that cant be solved as easily as raising the class change ect by the same amount as the creds because it makes it tedious and less entertaining to keep going back to check all costs of extras.

When i say class change i am not just saying that its the main thing affected and its so important, I am saying that in the future if other features like this is released, it will cause more and more problems because you will have to end up changing the prices for them and as a result more hassle for the players.
On a simple level right now there is:
class change
war kills
thats 2 things players have to go use their time to know what the cost is per level.
Now lets say in the future more features are released then players go from 2 things to more and more and more. If you deny this then you are saying you dont use these features or have never check them out.

When you talk about class change your giving your opinions. Ex, "class change should actually be an opportunity to explore and test other classes" That is your opinion about class change and theres nothing wrong with your opinion but it doesnt prove anything, if you wanted this to be true then everyone must have the same thought as you on this, like " people who use class change is a way for them to have fun, be entertained, or be more effective." and how is this true?, well if you class change to a overpowered build then its more effective its not necessarily fun or entertaining or is it a opportunity to test the class, your just copying the layout of the build and doing what others do. Not everyone actually tests to see if Maul is better than double strike or if bezerker is better than firebolt. " Looking for methods to prevent class change abuse means admitting that class balance is ****" again this is a opinion, Someone may want to prevent class change abuse because it makes people more aware of their choices and adds variety.

quote:

Of course there may be a slight variation from my calculations, but you're denying the obvious. If you read carefully, I've also estimated the credit gain of a good player, with 2:1 wins. So, anyone between a win ratio of 1:1 and 2:1 is suffering from lacking credits. Does that interval cover your exceptions?


You identified the problem with average-good players not having enough credits but you didnt provide proof or substantial evidence that your solution works while i have. I am not denying the obvious, what you proved and wanted a discussion on was how to go about solving the problem of credit earnings. You didnt prove to me that raising credits will end up being a more beneficial solution with math and facts.

quote:

I expect you to say next that anyone has a chance to win arcade jackpot every single turn. Don't say it, because it is stupid.

you expected wrong :P

@BasicBall


quote:


if you leave out things like credits from deaths, credits from beating higher levels, credits you get at the start of the game, credits earned from missions, credits earned from the arcade,...
sure, you'll have an easy time calculating, you'll also have highly inaccurate results.

therefore, your results arn't trustworthy


I cannot count death credits because there are npc's in the game, unless you have data showing me how many npc has been fought and how many wins/deaths there were, I cant prove that because the game doesnt keep track of that to that extent. I cant count credits earned from beating higher levels because I dont know the exact win % of that and to find that you can go pm titan if it even keeps track of that data. Some people may not choose to do missions or arcades so I cannot include those either. My results arent highly inaccurate, it is as accurate as you can get under my circumstances, if you wanted a accurate reading you can go and ask titan for the total wins, deaths, players of every level challenged to 5 level range, amount of credits earned from missions, arcade, sold items, ect. This is how you would get a accurate reading, but it isnt possible because data isnt tracked to that certain extent. If you want to prove my results to be untrustworthy then you need to provide data claiming that it is, not just empty statements. The problem with this is that the data you provide has to include all the factors stated above or you cant prove my results inaccurate because mine were under specific situations. You can make it more accurate by going through all items of all levels and finding the average then going with wins and death credits gained of each level though if you wanted to.

@...
quote:

By my calcullations, as soon as you are level 25 (so at the beginning of the level, not at the end), you have right about 25468 credits if you have a 1/1 win record. 19656 are from wins, 702 from the arcade and 5110 from misions and starting cred at the beginning of the game.
in my calculations, it takes 468 wins (so 936 total fights)

quote:

OK, subtract those 5110 credits from missions that I did not count, and we're about there; which makes us both untrustworthy eh? :D
You cant say you have about 25468 credits because unless you know exactly how many people from levels 1-25 do missions, arcade, ect. then will you because to make that claim.

@Basicball
Im just reviewing 50% spreadsheet.
About your calculations:
For the exp: you put:
1 win=22
2 win=33
3 win=66
Now this is inaccurate because in your formula you said:
12+7+3= 22exp
You cannot state the 3 (unless you want a inaccurate result) because if you fight the same level or below you just get the 12 and on average it is defiantly the fact that you wont be fighting a higher level from level 1-33. If you cannot find the data for it then leave it out. To find the data you would need to know how many population of each level are there and calculate the probability of each possible opponent you will fight then find the average exp per win.
Just include
12+7 for a accurate reading.
same with credits.

About the arcade, you will get a average of ___(cannot state because % of all item drop are unknown) credits per arcade reward. the average never changes. In a 1:1 state you will earn a reward in theory every 80 fights because:
5 wins you will get 5 deaths<--5 wins for 5 token
4 wins you will get 4 deaths<--Arcade 25% drop

Below assumes you lose the first fight if you end up winning the first fight the 1:1 ratio doesnt work for arcade because it would be 5 wins to 4 deaths=1 arcade which is not a 1:1 win rate.
1. 10 fights=5 wins 5 deaths(die,win,die,win,die,win,die,win,die,win)
2. Arcade 1 fight=1 win
3. 8 fights=4 wins 4 deaths (die,win,die,win,die,win,die, win)
4. Arcade 1=fight 1 deaths

repeat that 3 more times and you have: 80 fights you will get 1 reward. So to be accurate in your spreadsheet you would have re-calculate it so it matches what you know, otherwise it is inaccurate in because you dont have the % of arcade drop which is why on average it is not 60 (unless you have asked titan for the info) and you cant have a average of 15 cred per arcade fight in the actual table because it wont reflect the true value of the total cred per win.
ex.
yours:
win 1 = 1.5 cred ,,, total cred per win = 1.5
win 6 = 9 cred ,,, total cred per win = 9
adjusted:
win 1 = 0 cred ,,, total cred per win = 0
win 6 = _ cred (cannot state average as % not provided) ,,, total cred per win = _

With the column of total cred from mission and total creds per win it is flawed at the beginning because you dont start out with 5110 (obviously) you need to actually finish the mission to get those credits for example:
hypothetical mission
kill 4 city guards (level 1) to get 500 credits
so at:
win 1=32
win 2=64
win 3=96
win 4=128+500

so at win 4 would you have that added credits.


So in summary: Only put what you know or put it in a very general situation because putting data which you don't know makes the results incredibly linear. Also making it general (Ex. Wins only, Deaths only) is a lot easier to relate to the real stats.

ANYWAYS: this is going to be my last post in my topic, i already stated my position and if you disagree its fine. Just learn that you should think less linear and more open to others solutions. Also learn that you should take into account all the ACTUAL facts before making your decision on whats right. Besides that we're all discussing for the same thing, affordable weapons and enhancements so instead of saying that its wrong, say its not as effective and give critism on how it can be better so in the end all idea's benefit us.
Post #: 38
11/4/2011 20:16:25   
Laces
Member

I think Hallow33n just broke the record for the longest post on the forums. Just saying. I do think the credit price needs to be higher but lets see what the Devs say.

< Message edited by Laces -- 11/4/2011 20:17:23 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 39
11/4/2011 21:21:19   
edwardvulture
Member

nope xxxomegafaustxxx topped that
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 40
11/4/2011 21:27:00   
Cinderella
Always a Princess


We've actually been having internal staff conversations about a better method of scaling credits earned.
Post #: 41
11/4/2011 21:32:20   
Chosen 0ne
Banned


^Good.

_____________________________


DF AQW Epic  Post #: 42
11/4/2011 23:41:03   
Xxbbooxx
Member

I say it should increase with your level. Perhaps 3x your Level, at a flat rate of 32 Credits per win until level 11, at which point it would be 33. Example:
Level - Credits Per 1v1 Win.
1 - 32
2 - 32
3 - 32
Etc. Etc.
9 - 32
10 - 32
11 - 33
12 - 36
13 - 39
14 - 42
15 - 45
Etc. Etc.
25 - 75
26 - 78
27 - 81
28 - 84
29 - 87
30 - 90
31 - 93
32 - 96
33 - 99
34 - 102

For a loss it would be a flat rate of 16 credits.
If on power hour the bonuses would still apply.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 43
11/5/2011 2:53:01   
Drianx
Member

Scaling won't help actually. Lv15s need credits more badly than lv34s.
AQW Epic  Post #: 44
11/5/2011 3:51:29   
Monstrocon
Member

Ok, how about we improve the slope for EXP required to lvl up? That way, it can be more fair. No steep rises till high level (30+).
A level scaling credit rewards idea would be alright if the slope was changed.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 45
11/5/2011 17:38:08   
PumKing
Member

changing the credit system to boost buys is an epic idea, that really has no downside, and as for retooling the whole system, that's bollux, the only thing that would need to be retooled at all is the credit enhancment center for equiptment, nothing else, and since EVERYTHING runs on the same price, it is a super easy fix. Anyone else who says that anything else needs to be changed via creadit prices is blowing smoke, because when it comes down to it, the best gear would still be varium, and with no other way to earn varium besides buying it with real money, nothing in game would change, except for more nonvars having more creative builds and seeing them on more cred only motor bikes (which quite frankly are the best ones, can anyone say the vector bike, but my personal favorite is the purely engine one, gotta love the homage to Earth Worm Jim XP )
Epic  Post #: 46
11/6/2011 1:10:42   
Bjswimmer
Member
 

I think we are all forgetting why the credit system is the way it is, this is game like all the games that claim are "free to play"

are money makers. (aka you'll only prosper in this game if you spend money) and they require non-whatevers like my self to

spend countless hours grinding to get a good set of equipment. which is to say not fair, Well its suppose to be like that, its

suppose to be "not fair" unless you pay for it. Its just a fact, that this game makes money off of people's desire to annihilate their

opponent with awesome equipment. So i suggest that 1) you start to spend money 2) waste your time playing this game(although

i will admit this game is fkn addicting) or 3) (and i've tried this option to no avail) find a better "free to play game" because the

money system is not likely to change. I laughed when I read Cinderella's post "We've actually been having internal staff

conversations about a better method of scaling credits earned." Needless to say its easier said than done, but im pretty sure

people have been talking about a different way to scale credits for a long a** time, and i'm pretty sure we(as in everyone who

cares) would like that update(if you are going to do an update, which I doubt it will happen) sooner rather than later.
Post #: 47
11/6/2011 1:44:19   
PD
Member
 

@everyone: No, my posts have definitely beaten those many times over. Many many times. But that's irrelevant.

And for the general FYI, The rewards don't matter as much as the ratios that make UP the system. Numbers mean nothing without context.
Post #: 48
11/6/2011 1:57:55   
RageSoul
Member

quote:

I think we are all forgetting why the credit system is the way it is, this is game like all the games that claim are "free to play"

But it doesn't mean that farming Credits has to be that hard .

AQW Epic  Post #: 49
11/6/2011 21:17:51   
Bjswimmer
Member
 

quote:

quote:

I think we are all forgetting why the credit system is the way it is, this is game like all the games that claim are "free to play"

But it doesn't mean that farming Credits has to be that hard .


And i explained WHY it is hard, because "free to play games" are just money makers. If it was easy to gain in game money not as many people would by varium. They would be content with what they had, and that's why it IS hard
Post #: 50
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Artix Entertainment Games] >> [EpicDuel] >> EpicDuel General Discussion >> RE: Broken credit earning system
Page 2 of 3<123>
Jump to:






Icon Legend
New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Forum Content Copyright © 2018 Artix Entertainment, LLC.

"AdventureQuest", "DragonFable", "MechQuest", "EpicDuel", "BattleOn.com", "AdventureQuest Worlds", "Artix Entertainment"
and all game character names are either trademarks or registered trademarks of Artix Entertainment, LLC. All rights are reserved.
PRIVACY POLICY


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition