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RE: Crazy enahcements solution!

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11/12/2011 9:52:07   
johnny be good
Banned


 I didn't really understand what u wanted, but it sounds good ALRIGHT!
Post #: 51
11/12/2011 11:50:12   
I am Primal
Member
 

 dislexia doesn't make you stupid i have an mild version of it aswell. you can still type long essays ect if u got dislexia.

and sorry remorse but i don't like this idea i can't afford enchantments as it is and i don't want to have to buy even more weps than i already have.
Post #: 52
11/12/2011 12:18:47   
goldslayer1
Member

@primal

u wouldn't have to buy more weps. thats completely optional
but u would be a little stuck for a while withthe same type of build
AQW Epic  Post #: 53
11/12/2011 15:24:54   
IsaiahtheMage
Member

After reading over this entire post and everyones comments again I have realized something. This is a terrible idea. Your not even getting enhancements. Your just rearranging the stats in your weapons to your liking. That defeats the purpose of buying new weapons for their stats. And basically tons of weapons would become useless. And besides that a majority of people would not buy them. And people would become very mad knowing that their builds are now ruined. And all those weapons the devs made will all nearly become useless. Because stats will no longer matter. And they would lose a lot of money. I'm sorry I don't mean to be harsh but this is a horrid idea.
AQW Epic  Post #: 54
11/13/2011 0:55:38   
Remorse
Member

^
Of coarse your not getting the added enhacemnts that is the whole POINT DONT YOU REALISE THAT ITS THE ADDED ENHACEMNETS THAT HAVE RUINED BALANCE!!

Then when I argue agianst enhacemnts the main reponse I get is "I like enhacments because it lets you put the stats where you want to some degree"

SO!!!! That is the whole point to the idea, lets people configure wepons to their liking but at a cost!
People who dont want to get ripped off!! by enhacments any longer will like this because if they are happy with their wepons configuration they wont ever have to buy the enahcemnts.

AND NO it will not ruin builds It will make them ALOT better, how will peoples builds be ruined if the only diffrence is EVREYONE will get the same amount of stats ruffly but just less then now, in other words it will return to beta, when people builds were NOT EXTREMELY OPED with effortless piling builds ruling now with their with stats high defences etc. Yes people may have to change their build BUT it will be for the better of them game! dont you get sick and tired of versing the same sorta powerful builds because of the added enhacments! this is why LUCK is so influencing now because builds are too similar the main determinate of people victories are luck factors!

Wepons do not become USLESS they become USEFULL! because if you want to SAVE money and not spend more then double on one wepon just to give enhacments for one wepon then you would buy more wepons with configuration to your liking meaning you can save money buy buying more wepons!

Also the fact the enhacments cost apreciates at a high rate also works perfectly with this idea, if you wont to configure you wepons to your liking to some degree then it will cost you alot!
Why should we be practically be forced to pay so much for enahcemnts just to get the same advatage as evryone else! MY idea allows us to get the same advantage without buying of enhacments rather the smart purchasing of wepons which have well places stats to you liking!


What you need to realise is yess people taking advanatge of these oped builds may be disapointed but it is 100% necesary to make this game fair enjoyable and not wholey made up of 1 class!!
those who will be disapointed Im hoping most of you arnt selfish enough and just take this small hit on the chin for the good of the game!

Its time to let people be disapointed if it means taking a better step towards balance and fairness everything a pvp game like this should have to a better extent then it is now!

Also money wise they may lose small amount of money usally made off enahcments BUT their will be more purchases of wepons Which means more purchases of inventory slots etc. also if the devs WERE trying to make money so bad they could easily add extra things to make up for this possible loss. So please do not defend the devs in terms of shortage of money how about deffend what you think as a money spending player, plus the devs always say that they are not money controlled so this is exactly the type of idea they need to look in to.







< Message edited by Remorse -- 11/13/2011 1:01:04 >
Epic  Post #: 55
11/13/2011 1:26:02   
xxomegafaustxx
Member

@Remorse

Sorry, I didn't have the time to read all your posts, all of them are highly thoughtful and reflect a mature understanding of this issue. However, I still think enhancements should be intact; the fact is it must be regulated to some extent/degree.

Here's my brief synopsis to what I think is going on:

Pros:
1) enhancements = freedom and flexibility = customizing a weapon by adding purchasable stat slots = evolvement of stronger builds
2) no enhancements (but instead stat rearranging) = more balanced + regulated = unique builds evolved from the predisposed/predetermined stats of a weapon.

Cons:
1) enhancements = stat overpiling = stat abuse = OPED builds (since there exist no penalty in investing largely on one stat resulting into 40+ highly overpowering builds to evolve).
*This may account for the widening nonvar and var GAP as enhancements are very very expensive.

2) Imposing what you suggested = fixated stat configurations = buying more weapons to satisfy particular builds = expensive = the power of weaponry greatly decreased.
*Many people would bicker since enhancements are devoid any value to a weapon. Although I foresee no oped builds to form, I would envision many rage in dissent since the time and effort of actually enhancing a weapon.

***Perhaps in conjunction with your idea, I was thinking that yes:
Yes, there could be enhancements. Users could pile up on one stat but in doing so, would suffer a "penalty stat overuse". If one chooses to pour more and more stats into one area, that stat would lose it's effectiveness over an increasing interval.

STAT enhancements in one area (strength, support, dex, tech) ~MOCK, is not statistically accurate but I hope you get the idea.
EXAMPLE: (0 to 20) stat enhancements = stats increase 4+ per each 4 stat enhancement invested
(20 to 30) stat enhancements = stats increase 4+ per each 5 stat enhancement invested
(30 to 40) stat enhancements = stats increase 4+ per each 6 stat enhancement invested

This way, the enhancing just one stat point is discouraged because in the long run, it'll take more than 4 stats to increase in level. This will maintain the enhancement system and also discourage oped builds to form.
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 56
11/13/2011 3:14:21   
Remorse
Member

^ That is a great idea and thank you for your kind words. Dont forget however their is already a similar thing in place known as diminishing returns and also doing this will mearly leave the tank build in charge either way is balance builds can be just as oped with the extra stats from ehacments.

However I also came up for a backup for my idea and I think I mentioned it.

My backup is to place an enhacment sellback of around 80-90% for all enhacments that were orignally enhaced to gain stats.

Or if the player doesnt want to remove their enhacments as they want to re arragne their wepons stats eg. deltas support say good bye xD
Then they could do that and save themselves 10-20% loss only from the sellback.

After that however any purchases of enahcments would be unsellable meaning you cant get the 80-90% sellback on enhacments that were purchased to rearange the wepons stats.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 11/13/2011 3:23:38 >
Epic  Post #: 57
11/13/2011 3:57:55   
King FrostLich
Member

quote:

a frostbane gives 8 support, 8dex, 8 tech and has 10 enahcements.
If i had baught all these enahcments i could. take off all 8 stats from support and take of 2 from tech and put them into strength making the sword have 10 strength, 8 dex and 6 tech.


I would be so pissed if a person would rearrange and THEN enhance all those to support so in this case, +8 dex, +8 tech and +8 support turn into a huge +24 support weapon and add enhancements, equals a +34 support weapon. Now isn't that epic? Of course it isn't. Rearranging stats and enhancing is even more overpowered than the enhancements we have today.
Epic  Post #: 58
11/13/2011 4:03:04   
Remorse
Member

^ I cant tell you didnt read it , or perhaps it's unclear.

You can only rearange the stats the amount of times equal to the amount of enahcments.

In my example I used all 10 enahcments to move around 10 stats to wherever I choose.

Also you dont get the further enahcments at all, what is happening here is we are trading extra stats for rearangeable stats. then read my posts describing the reasons why this should be done.

Thanks.
Epic  Post #: 59
11/13/2011 4:10:10   
King FrostLich
Member

So basically what you're saying is that 10 enhancements can be rearrangable? Even that were to happen, there would be numerous people who will spam one stat instead.
Epic  Post #: 60
11/13/2011 4:20:31   
Xendran
Member

Just because a company says they arent money driven, doesn't mean you should believe them.
This is a major corporation. Profit rules over anything else.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 61
11/13/2011 4:28:23   
goldslayer1
Member

@xendran
yeah i see how major coprorations lie about the games.
for example how some say that they cant afford to hold the server so they make DLCs for the game to support the servers, when most of these games 500+ millions on profits after a week of released.
ur gonna tell me u cant afford servers with half a million dollars in the first week of release?
and thats when u know companies BS their customers.

thank god AE/ED doesn't charge us for bug/balance changes
AQW Epic  Post #: 62
11/13/2011 4:29:03   
xxomegafaustxx
Member

@Remorse

It is always a pleasure reading such great ideas (especially to all whom have put a great deal of effort and time in resolving such issues). Just for clarification: So if this does come into effect, are you suggesting that everyone is refunded? The only problem I see here is that there's gonna be an excess amount of credits (especially to nonvars who spent 50k credits on enhancements and to the vars also who spent a large sum of money).

How will the excess credits gained in such an ordeal be spent? Burned? Or used up (excuse my terminology if it's confusing).

I imagine that if everyone got their "refund on enhancements" back, there's gonna be "paper" money on the ground (useless 20k credits). I would much prefer investing my 20k or 30k on something that's going to help me in the future, and not some crummy bike or the war kill achievement.

But with the being said, enhancements are ridiculously expensive for us nonvars, so I guess it balances out.

@King Frostlich

Yes, I think she means that the stats are rearrangeable that provided this rationale; a user can only stack a certain amount of stats as given by a fixated amount of stats predetermined by the weapon.

Example: A weapon has stat modifiers (str 6+,dex 2+, sup 4+). The user has the ability to employ the rearranging of these predetermined stats by purchasing "enhancements" to move stats or pile stats in a desired area.

In this context, you can have combinations of (str 10+, dex 2) or (str 2+, dex 6+, sup 4+), etc, but the resulting combination MUST EQUAL to the amount of stat modifiers predetermined by the weapon. In this case it would be 12 stats slots:

(str 10+, dex 2) = 12 enhancement slots
(str 2+, dex 6+, sup 4+) = 12 enhancement slots

The premise of this method is STAT ALLOCATION not STAT ENHANCEMENT. As we know it, stat enhancements has only created a widening imbalance between nonvars and vars, has created imbalance in the structuring of classes and skills, as well has accounted for the OPNESS of specific tiers of users such as TLMs.
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 63
11/13/2011 4:30:34   
Ashari
Inconceivable!


 While I do see merit to this idea in terms of balance, it does present the problem of current enhancements being devalued. Rearranging stats, while convenient, does not provide any advantage unless equipment without your desired stats aren't available.

The main complaint with enhancements now is not that they provide a boost to a weapon, but that they can provide that boost indiscriminately, to any stat, regardless of the weapon's current stat make up. It's that flexibility that allows builds to abuse one stat builds, such as Strength builds. This idea still faces the same issue as the current enhance system -- equipment diversity is reduced when any item can be viable for nearly any build. Any change to enhancements should keep this problem in mind. Enhancements are supposed to provide a boost in order to improve the shelf life of an item, so removing any boost outright would defeat their purpose.

I'm not saying that enhancements will be changed any time soon, but that we have been talking within the balance team about possibilities to improving the system, so ideas and thoughts about the system are welcome.

< Message edited by Ashari -- 11/13/2011 5:02:14 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 64
11/13/2011 4:50:30   
xxomegafaustxx
Member

@Ashari

If I could bring this onto the table and if you have the courtesy to respond (you don't have to if you don't feel inclined to), will we be seeing enhancement change in the future (in terms of the pricing of enhancement slots)? Also I do agree with you, after enhancing a weapon there exist a monetary value right after the purchase of an enhancement slot. Yes removing "stat
enhancements" would be detrimental because the value of a "weapon's power" however, I mustn't underestimate the importance of one's "build power" and strategy.

To simplify, it's like having a 40+ str build against a 10+ dex build. Because stat enhancements have a such inflated and pronounced effect on the user, any build is feasible. Those who can't earn these stat enhancements are at a lost = derives to the imbalance of var and nonvar imporverty.

Furthermore, with "stat allocation", there would be no OPed builds. Why? Because there exist a predetermined amount of stats allocated . This in no way inhibits flexibility or one's freedom of being creative with one's build. "If life gives you Lemons, make Lemonade".~Therefore, shouldn't we do the same?

And with less "imbalance" created by stat marginilzation as seen in over piling stats onto one area, ED could introduce specials for weapons once everything is balanced. This may be a feasible marketing idea if ED wants to gain revenue. **Just an idea, has nothing to do with my rebuttal.

Well with the current enhancement system, we are posed with many problems such as indiscriminate OPED builds, stats, and imbalance between classes. I hope that we divert our attention to stat enhancements as this (might as well be) as this inaugurated the problem we see today.

- Stat enhancements are derivative of OPED builds as users can pile onto a desire stat with no penalty, unrestricted of parameters allowing and encouraging OPED builds to cultivate
- Stat enhancements are what make a class seem OPED as well as its respective skills. It is not the skills that are OPED, it is the stats that have made the skills OPED in the first place.
- Stat enhancements have caused an augmented imbalance amongst nonvars and vars which has resulted into community bickering = less people coming in ED.
- Stat enhancements are ridiculously expensive which has devalued the appreciation for the credit earning system (A post was made in that regard).

^Conclusion: Stat enhancements are a big big big problem and need to be addressed immediately.

AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 65
11/13/2011 5:07:28   
Remorse
Member

@ ashari
Thank you,
quote:

Any change to enhancements should keep this problem in mind. Enhancements are supposed to provide a boost in order to improve the shelf life of an item, so removing any boost outright would defeat their purpose.

and I do understand its original intent which is that it may "bring items back to life". But does it really new items are gaining the exact same enahcement bonus and most wepons could be classified as balanced according to their level, any improvment to lower level wepons to equal them to the current higher ones will only cause unbalance in lower levels having to fight people with these wepons. Which is why Im guessing the balance team has strategically decieded agianst the improvemnt of rares which is fair enough , so does it not destroy the orignal point to enhacments?

quote:

it does present the problem of current enhancements being devalued

Unfortunately this is true no matter how I disguise it it will proberly most likely be devalued, BUT with some sort of sellback in place I'm sure this won't be a major issue to most players.

quote:

The main complaint with enhancements now is not that they provide a boost to a weapon, but that they can provide that boost indiscriminate, to any stat, regardless of the weapon's current stat make up.

I can understand how people could asume this and it is proberly an acurate assumption, however I belive that without the added stats from enhancements in the first place these builds would have strong enough weaknesses in things like low defences or low hp in order for them to be defeated.
Also any other way(such as diminishing returns, requirments etc.) to balance out enahcments will unfortuantely remove variaty and creativity and we dont wont that! This way it can be avioded and hopingly only return things to a similar standard in beta.
But hey thats just me I could be completey wrong.

quote:

This idea still faces the same issue as the current enhance system -- equipment diversity is reduced when any item can be viable for nearly any build. Any change to enhancements should keep this problem in mind.

It has tacken me along time to form an idea that people have been actuly willing to accept, and I'm assuming that because forum members can accept it, so too can actual players.
The reason why my past attempts to change enhacments have been shot down by almost everyone is because most players like the fact of flexiable wepons althoguh I do see it's downside I tried to make something the communtiy would accept with this idea.
ALSO keep in mind this idea DOES take into consideration of this issue, WHY? because yes people will still have the flexabailty if the were so keen to obatian it, BUT I'm assuming that most people after a change like this would rather leave thier wepons at its orignal configuration in order to bypass the extreme costs, why not now? players at the moment are practically forced to buy these enahcments and by doing so sure they automatically maybe without noticing obtain the abialty to make more flexiable builds.

As for the likely hood of it being changed I'm very happy to hear this so thank you for letting me know.

@omega

Thank you for supporting me,
also I have sugested the "special" for wepons ideas earlier on in this post:
quote:

They could make money in many diffrent ways for instance they could use the side efefct feature to add to wepons to make money.

What do I mean?
Well if wepons could have applied side effects like for example the curse abaialty or the celtic connectivity etc.
However the current side effects on the wepons already in place would become "rare" side effects and could no be added to wepons rather a selection of "non rare " side effects eg.5% armour ignoring, along with a list of "non rare" effects could be added for a price :)

That is just one example of what they could do.
and it would be a great idea for a money boost to replace enahcments if it was needed.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 11/13/2011 5:20:07 >
Epic  Post #: 66
11/14/2011 3:41:40   
Ashari
Inconceivable!
quote:

- Stat enhancements are ridiculously expensive which has devalued the appreciation for the credit earning system (A post was made in that regard).

Pricing and credit rewards are something that we're talking internally about changing, greatly. Scaling rewards would help ease the innaccesibility of enhancements. In addition to the scaling of rewards, better scaling of prices in all regards would help general accessibility to features and items at all levels. Enhancements at low levels, in particular, are nigh impossible to afford now. Scaling prices may be able to include scaling enhancement costs based on item level. That's a whole 'nother topic, but the issue of pricing (and not just on enhancements) is getting attention.

< Message edited by Ashari -- 11/14/2011 3:42:08 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 67
11/14/2011 10:55:24   
TurkishIncubus
Member

i didnt like the idea because that will kill weapon value also this will change ED like aqw, ppl will start to use weps just because their looks and edit their stats.

Also this will not help anything about balance cause other builds also gonna lose enhancements.

But enhancements is a real problem now because they are extremly high cost.Lowering the cost ALOT (like 50k credit/600 varium for 10 enhance) will solve problem.

_____________________________
Epic  Post #: 68
11/14/2011 16:03:25   
.Nikzat.
Member

600 varium is perfect for 10 enhence. Not like 1,2k var thats too much! and 50k credits for 10 enhence is great too! Im totaly supported
-Thanks!
Epic  Post #: 69
11/14/2011 16:38:01   
Elf Priest JZaanu
Constructive!


 The initial concept of enhancements was greatly appreciated for the way one could interchange weapons without a total retrain.

Enhancements as I written prior, as the game continues to level, the cost per stat tier will rise. More points will be needed to move up meaning more funds.


Enhancements needs to be simplified to one item, and that is armor. Class change also need to be altered. If one changes, like the real world, you start at level one.

The game should be fun, but this game needs to be responsible so abuses and balance shifts don't continue to hinder it's progress. This game, during the early stages, more players focused on problem solving. Now that option is difficult due to simple class change and follow the mass.

< Message edited by JZaanu -- 11/14/2011 16:40:23 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 70
11/16/2011 20:34:29   
ur going to fail
Member

back b4 enhancements.. ppl could everything they needed without having to enhance stuff. f2p's and varium users alike.. It didn't turn into aqw then.
Epic  Post #: 71
11/16/2011 20:44:42   
nico0las
Member

^ED could never be anything near what AQW is. There are two roads you can choose when making a flash based MMO: Road 1, social life, with simple knick-knacks. Road 2: Complicated, directed to older players, where one must work to actually achieve something.

@Ashari I don't see how scaling the enhancement price according to level is going to get us anywhere. The large portion of players, the level 33/34s, will still have to pay, from what I can imagine, unimaginable prices, even if they are cheaper than their earlier counterparts. We have the same problem with retrain. I hate having to pay 660 credits per change.

This idea actually works out well. I'm playing out how it would work out, and I imagine we will be, although forcing players to create focus-based builds, (killing a large portion of the variety in ED), making them to think about the benefit of each stat.

The way I see it, the problem isn't enhancements altogether, but merely varium players abusing our ability to enhance our gear.

An enhancement improvement suggestion:
level 1: 100 varium, x credits
level 2: 200 varium, x credits
So on and so forth until:
Level 10: 1000 varium, 10x initial price.

I still call it "x" because I can't think of a convenient value. I can't go from 10 000 - 100 000, it's too expensive, but I can't go from 1 000 - 10 000, that's too cheap.
This is to be edited and improved until I can find the perfect value.

< Message edited by nico0las -- 11/16/2011 20:48:58 >
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 72
11/16/2011 21:38:54   
kittycat
Member

Enhancements are there to help increase power and increase flexibility. I agree what Remorse said, but rearranging stats may end up with +8, +8, +8 to one stat being higher than the other. In other words, there should be enhancements but reduced such as cutting 2 enhancements from each weapon, or reduce agility score through enhancements. If all stats of every weapon equipped and exceeds a certain amount, the penalties can be induced by further lowering your agility score, or your chances of blocking, deflecting etc. are reduced.

Such as...
Level 34
Delta Staff
Wraith Repeater
Nightwraith's Duds
Wraith Cannon

26+20+18+18=82.
Enhancements are 34, so they total up to 116. There should be a penalty where x/y is greater than 112.50%. X is the sum of all equipped weapons' stat bonuses combined including the enhancements they purchased from all weapons, while Y is just the sum of all equipped weapons' stats.
AQ MQ  Post #: 73
11/16/2011 21:43:19   
frogbones
Banned


 Exactly, JZ.

It is unfortunate that in a PvP game, real balance takes a backseat to price gouging and frilly, pointless updates.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 74
11/17/2011 1:58:57   
Remorse
Member

quote:

i didnt like the idea because that will kill weapon value also this will change ED like aqw, ppl will start to use weps just because their looks and edit their stats.

Also this will not help anything about balance cause other builds also gonna lose enhancements.

But enhancements is a real problem now because they are extremly high cost.Lowering the cost ALOT (like 50k credit/600 varium for 10 enhance) will solve problem.


First off NO!
It will make the wepons worth MORE!
ATM enhacments like this, you get the exact same frexiabailty with enhacments now compared with my idea, my idea only adjusts the total amount of stats players can obtain,
BUT with my idea wepon enhacments WONT be needed all the time, so if you are happy with you current wepons stat placement, you wont have to get ripped off paying for enahcments for a wepon, enahcments which would end up costing more then another wepon. So overall the placement of stats on weopns will be even more importnat if you won't to save money, but for commitied players they are given the option to change the stats if they wish, but the line is the extreme costs.

Secondly IT WILL help balance, as it will give pilers a disadvanatge as there will be the total less stats and if they wont to maintain their power they will have to sacrifise high hp and defneces, yes all builds will be afected but its piling without a disadvanatge that is the problem, keep in mind IM NOT trying to remove pilers from the game infact the oppisite I wont to keep them alive but unfortunately if they continue on the path they are on unchanged the balance team and the devs will have to continue you to nerf the untill everyone if left with focus options.

SO it's you choice turkish, you can have piling build but with downsides (low hp and defnces) or you can keep you overpowered , craetivity ,strategy and game destroying builds which will continue to be nerfed until thier is nothing left.








< Message edited by Remorse -- 11/17/2011 2:28:51 >
Epic  Post #: 75
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