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11/22/2011 16:09:07   
Ashari
Inconceivable!


 All balance discussions will be restricted to this thread. This is to condense the many issues that you have all expressed into a single place that the balance people can work on.

Please keep all balance discussions in this thread, and don't forget to follow the forum's rules.


EDIT: Some things that the balancers would like you to avoid discussing. Please do not post about the following things.
quote:

No discussion/request for buffing or enhancing Founder Armor - Any additional perks that founders may recieve will be at the discretion of the staff.

No "luck" complaints - This thread is not a place to complain about an unlucky streak that caused you to lose a match. Please remember that while luck may seem to favor or disfavor you in the short run, over the long run it does average out.


quote:

As a general rule, no buffs will be granted to rare items. This is regardless of their status as Limited, Seasonal, Promotional, etc. In order to achieve a more balanced system of play, buffs cannot be guaranteed or handed out on a regular basis. This policy has been decided by the game staff and is not likely to change. However, if you feel that your case is especially strong, that is, you have numbers and evidence to support your conclusions, you are welcome to contact the game staff using this forum's PM system to discuss it more thoroughly. Keep in mind that the game staff cannot promise that your case will be followed through upon, as the game's balance will take precedence over personal requests for the sake of all of the game's vast player base.

In regards to this discussion thread, you are still permitted to discuss buffs to rare items, but these discussions must be placed within this thread.


If you disagree with these policies, please send Lord Barrius a PM and the issue will be discuss. DO NOT post in this thread to protest these things, your post will be deleted and you will be issued punishments for breaking the rules.

=ED= Balance Discussions I
=ED= Balance Discussions II

< Message edited by Ashari -- 11/27/2011 21:32:08 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 1
11/22/2011 16:22:29   
Wootz
Member

quote:

1234speedy, dumb, if people can't see the the concept of one skill doing what two skills would do but with more
efficiency you truly lack insight as well as the IQ, so before you call someone dumb look in the mirror and ask why
am I so dumb?

There is no confirmation from Titan skills will be replaced with the Tact mercs only thing that was confirmed was
rearranging the skill tree.

87% win ratio that is poor for a varium player and since the character page only displays wins we can't really take your word it
is 87%. While all of you are constantly focused on ideas to help the varium players I am focused on helping both varium and non-varium players. non-varium players are non-varium players because they can't afford it,
do you not realize that? The non-varium players can't afford the over priced armor so you see them with no armor and a skill like Guardian and HELO
would benefit them the most.


I lack insight and IQ? Yet; you still suggest that crap over and over again, and you've been rejected and explained why it is Over-Powered instead of fixing it.
87% is more then enough.
"There is no confirmation from Titan skills will be replaced with the Tact mercs only thing that was confirmed was
rearranging the skill tree. " - fine, I'll tweet him.

And make non-variums over-powered. Great idea. Supporting a game to make those who don't support it more powerfull then the people who support. Gratz.
AQW Epic  Post #: 2
11/22/2011 16:33:52   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

goldslayer1, can you beat the electro hazard can you beat Titan? You may think Electro Hazard Reroute and Blood Lust is at level 7 but
it could be at Level 5 since the skill tree and percentage is different for the NPCs. Having energy/health return skill does not increase the
power of the blood mage but helps that class last in battle by giving the opportunity to heal to have some chance of victory.
Just like reroute and Blood lust if you block or get blocked HELO will give you no return. Out of 4 strikes against the bounty Hunter he blocked me
3 times so I view his stats and skills he had low dex and no shadow arts I was thinking he had hi dex and level 10 shadow arts so
right there you would not be able to do accurate calculations only ones that would know what levels each skill is at would be the programmers
and only the programmers.

dude the lvl of skills were verified by wiki editors. and confirmed by the staff.
ur obviously not getting my point.
electro hazard has 2 skills. each lvl 7
HELO is both of those skills in 1.
so maxing out HELO leaves the bloodmage with 4 extra skills. plus more stats, better weapons. and strategy.
electro hazard will occasinally kill people at lvl 31 with crap gear and lots of skills points spread out.
imagine a player with helo, extra skills left over, stats and top weapon gear. with strategy.
it would be OP.
AQW Epic  Post #: 3
11/22/2011 16:40:40   
Wootz
Member

@Above
Exactly what I've been telling him for the past, atleast, five posts.
AQW Epic  Post #: 4
11/22/2011 16:48:25   
PD
Member
 

 What is HELO anyways?

Anyways, I think it's best not to use strawmen arguements. Instead, let us fight with numbers and not speculative fears.

Also, I'd have to press the question of the subjectivity of the advantages that varium should or should not grant. Seems that we've never even estabished that which becomes the problem known as the gap because people don't agree on how wide the gap should be, but rather think of the problem based on what they believe is best and not sharing multiple viewpoints to settle in on the issue. It's quite ironic really - People wish to fix balance yet they spit at other people and disregard other points of view and perspectives.

I find it that without a definitive consensus on the value of varium and its power then most if not all the problems in the game will never be fixed because much of the game's problems have to do with stat-skill (And vice versa) relations themselves.

< Message edited by PD -- 11/22/2011 16:49:31 >
Post #: 5
11/22/2011 16:53:13   
Wootz
Member

Tried with numbers once, didn't work. Hmmm...I think theres helo on page 27 of Balance II.
AQW Epic  Post #: 6
11/22/2011 17:00:47   
PD
Member
 

 So it's one of Hun's suggestions? I see...

I would say something about if I could simulate it in a battle scenario in 1v1. Basically seeing how it would work in a battle. Set up a scenario with numbers, work the skills, see how the numbers convert into attack strength into the skill (From what I get, the skill is dependent on BtH, STR, and the dexterity). Basically, HELO would be *marginally* fine as long as the numbers aren't too bad when one converts the attack range into the skill (because you regain HP when you attack) and how it correlates with Defense when you get hit for Energy Regen.

Otherwise, if the numbers are absurd, then it won't pass. If the numbers agree that it's balanced, then it's fine. I find it awkward that we shoot things down without trying to set up the scenario and see how it works with the stats, and vice versa. There's a terrible delusion in shooting something down without even knowing how it works or how the stats translate into it's effectiveness.

< Message edited by PD -- 11/22/2011 17:04:16 >
Post #: 7
11/22/2011 17:41:45   
Wootz
Member

The problem is that it is basicly 2 skills in 1 skill. That's Reroute & BloodLust combined which means 10 free levels and 10 free skill points if you Max the skill.
The same thing is with his shield idea, an combination of Reflex Boost and Techinician which scales and increases both Defense & Resistance for 4 turns.
AQW Epic  Post #: 8
11/22/2011 18:19:53   
goldslayer1
Member

@pd
adding to what speedy said
the bloodlust in HELO is 30%. (not 23% like bh bloodlust)
his numbers are too high.
it would be more acceptable if the numbers were lower. like 20% on both at max.

the problem with that is, people will just use str builds to damage and regain hp thru HELO (bloodlust version) and making them have way more hp so they get energy thru HELO (reroute version) and with a max helo decent tank and lots of str with high hp and a high field medic
they could heal loop all day with bloodlust and using field medic when needed. (along with hp boosters)

and they can have the damage for bloodlust to get them good regain because of DA and other skills.
also other str builds wouldn't stand up to it so good because of intimidate (also currently in the skill tree)

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 11/22/2011 18:23:09 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 9
11/22/2011 18:21:37   
Stabilis
Member

I think we can all agree that this game would be more balanced if blood splattered 24/7.
AQ Epic  Post #: 10
11/22/2011 19:40:53   
DeathGuard
Member

The problem with tank tlms, is that they got 2 powerful skills that offers them def/res, Hybrid and tecnician, so Devs should take one of the two and replaced hybrid for def matrix or technician for other skill
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 11
11/22/2011 20:10:59   
Jekyll
Member

I just think hybrid has to go. It cannot be in the same tree as reroute.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 12
11/22/2011 20:26:06   
Count von Tilly
Member

Has anyone ever considered replacing TLM hybrid with a physical version of bloodshield?

Physical bloodshield is more similar to hybrid armor than defense matrix is, and it is less powerful, giving TLM the true nerf it needs. Str builds would no longer have ultrahigh physical defense unless they waste a turn to activate it.

but then there would be those pesky str BHs...

I can anticipate the opposition, so I have made this counterargument:

Will losing hybrid armor to phys bloodshield ruin the TLM?
Of course not. If we are to compare TLM with TM:

TM has 4 principle skills
-reroute
-malf
-deadly aim: high power
-assimilate: most efficient mp drain

TLM has
-reroute
-smoke, which is better than malf due to less blocking
-mini bloodlust(about 1/4 as effective as normal bloodlust)
-poison grenade: the best poison in the game
-surgical: more useful than supercharge

I did not list artillery since it is likely to be less popular with all the support nerfs going on.
TLM, with the skills listed, is already on par, if not above par, with techmage. With only those listed skills, TLM can function as well as TM can. Yet on top of this balanced skillset, TLM gets hybrid armor. And as we all know, hybrid armor is very powerful. It's a table-turning, no, table-flipping skill.


Another argument:
The original merc class got hybrid armor since the merc had no debuffs, giving it defensive capability to make up for its percieved lack of offense. Yet TLM has both hybrid armor AND the best debuff, giving it both offensive and defensive capabilities. They also somehow got reroute thrown into the deal, probably in exchange for bunker buster, but reroute is much more useful than bunker buster is to most players.


Before you post something defending the TLM, please refute my argument. If you do not refute it in any manner at all when you make your assertion, then Everyone will know that you are trying to hide something.
Post #: 13
11/23/2011 0:37:25   
TurkishIncubus
Member

TLM EDIT
Change

Technician ==>Bloodshield
Technician can be useable with 1 lvl and high dex unlike bloodshield, and technician also increase smoke and robot, this will nerf both str build and 5 focus tank

Atom==>A new skill
Reroute + Atom is too powerful , with 6 energy you can take +30 from oponent and you will not lose any energy because of reroute

BH/BM EDIT

Buff Bloodlust to 30% and increase its requirement to 42 tech

TM/BM EDIT

Increase Supercharges 30% hp return to 50% to make it same with Surgical Strike, 30% is too less for a 4th tier skill that hits arround 50 dmg(when maxed, 57 energy)

CH EDIT

Remove shadow arts seriously they dont need it, give something passively increase dex or give them diamond blades(i think its pasive cheapshot) but nerf static a little bit

MERC EDIT

Make Field Commander require 0 energy like asim/static or change it to a passive that gives +32 str when maxed at 34 lvl

< Message edited by TurkishIncubus -- 11/23/2011 0:51:26 >

_____________________________
Epic  Post #: 14
11/23/2011 7:26:08   
Darkeroid
Member

Tlm has HA that covers both def/res.Aren't all classes supposed to have a skill to cover both def/res?BUT even though tlm has HA to cover both defences,it has further protection into resistance,just like normal mercenaries,but faaar stronger.So,to be on par with the normal mercenaries,Technician needs to swap for Blood shield.This simple swap deals with the def/res issues of the tlms.

Tlms have ways to get both health and energy.They have Frenzy,which gives health to the user as it deals damage to the opponent.They have Reroute,which gives you energy as you lose health(not by poision though :)).These two skills alone make tlm really strong.Now,I suggest a skill that will nor make them too strong.Nor 'UnderPowered'.

Swap reroute for something else(something offensive).Then make Frenzy work like this:

The new frenzy gives the user 22%(at max) health or energy of any damage he inflicts.This is like bloodlust,except you can change between health and energy,starting with energy.This skill also has much lower steal than bloodlust because you can change between health and energy.

< Message edited by Darkeroid -- 11/23/2011 10:22:15 >
Epic  Post #: 15
11/23/2011 8:33:27   
Wootz
Member

Turkish, I love that you want Diamond Blades :D +1 rep
AQW Epic  Post #: 16
11/23/2011 9:28:37   
sylar67
Member
 
quote:

[Moderator] Illuminator

Enjoying Life (ED)


Don't forget that 5 focus and tank builds tend to also use their auxiliary weapons fairly often, so it could be useful against them as well. Robot skills aren't meant to completely debilitate your opponent, just give you a slight strategic advantage.

Please use the Official Design Notes thread for all discussion about the design notes and the update.
Locked.
taken from here :)

i like the way he says it xD now if 5 focus were the only ones able to stand a chance against str tacts wont have it anymore

another 1 goes added to the buffs of str tacts -.-
Post #: 17
11/23/2011 10:02:22   
TurkishIncubus
Member

First of all OPED means they are not beatable

TLM is not OPED, i can win 95% of them with TM :l , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysBIfLcP99o, they are weak against dex builds which i was telling from the begining.Is my build too hard to do NO , is it too hard to use NO , its a simple dex build that kills faster than TLM ;)

Just do the things i told in my previous post, no need to nerf them like removing Hybrid, that will kill the class not nerf.
Epic  Post #: 18
11/23/2011 10:15:42   
Darkeroid
Member

@Turkish
Ill change that nao.I meant really strong.Not 'OverPowered'.

And also,REMOVE FOCUS.Let bot damage only improve with tech.

< Message edited by Darkeroid -- 11/23/2011 10:18:04 >

_____________________________
Epic  Post #: 19
11/23/2011 13:33:33   
Algorithm
Member

I've been using Dex Mage for months now, it owns strength abusers.
Post #: 20
11/23/2011 18:12:17   
rej
Member

Concerns about the yeti bot being released:
Is it really a good, or even reasonable idea, for this new pet to nerf an allready allmost useless build type? Wouldn't it be better if, say, it put gun, or even strike, into cooldown instead?

_____________________________

It is difficult to enjoy your cake when your pants are on fire.
~Dragon of Time
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 21
11/23/2011 19:02:31   
drinde
Member

Totally agree with ^. A 2 turn Strike Cooldown maybe.

Only problem is, it shouldn't throw Strike into Cooldown if the target has no means to use a skill.
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 22
11/24/2011 10:45:17   
BlueKatz
Member

quote:

First of all OPED means they are not beatable

quote:


Overpowered (often abbreviated to OP) is a common term referring to a perceived lack of game balance. It is often used when describing a specific class in an RPG, a specific faction in strategic games, or a specific tactic, ability, weapon or unit in various games. For something to be deemed overpowered, it is either the best choice in a disproportionate number of situations (marginalising other choices) and/or excessively hard to counter by the opponent compared to the effort required to use it.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 23
11/24/2011 19:39:38   
Hun Kingq
Member

Take a look at what classes the players are that shoot down my ideas but we can put HELO in a scenario since they want to max at 30%. All the Blood mages Offensive skills are high energy drainers for one and that we have nothing to increase damage.

So let us take the recent Artillery strike which Reflex boost worked for once so instead of Reflex Boost let us use Guardian put Guardian on after getting getting smoked and malfunction at the same time and the damage was 5 then 9 so that is 14 that is only 4.2 or 5 energy return so where is the big energy regain. I shot a strength tact merc with the Stun blaster he had low tech/support 26 deflection was the damage so the health regain would be 7.8 or 8 when his pistol did 30 damage so really you would have a -22 health regain so where is the big health regain.

Only reason Titan and Electro hazard gets big returns because they do constant heavy damage as the Blood Mage does not. The Blood Mage has nothing to increase its power/affect the skills or bots as much as malfunction and smoke.

Blood Mages of High levels would not for one put HELO at Max because we know we need to get as much damage that we can since we have nothing to boost damage. We would keep Deadly Aim at max Plasma Cannon at max a good level on Guardian and if we had TAZ, Essimilation, and restriction then we would have points on those as well. Since Essimilation would give damage at the same time of taking away energy which would compensate for the percentage of energy return that reroute would give so we could see an actual energy drain. If HELO is active then Essimilation would not give back energy but if HELO is not selected then the Blood Mage can get back a better with Essimilation then Assimilation.

They told us giving the Blood Mage malfunction would make them unstoppable but they gave the other two new classes smoke and malfunction so helping the other two classes to increase power at the same time of lowering defense and or resistance is not only unfair but also unbalanced.

So far everything they have done to try to get some sense of balanced has failed, made the Blood Mage weaker, or helped increase the power of the other two classes especially the tact merc. If a strength abusing tact merc can take you down with lower dex because you don't block with or without smoke on then they are over powered, having too much power, while they deflect you or block you every other turn.



Epic  Post #: 24
11/24/2011 19:46:07   
goldslayer1
Member

@hun
ur idea isn't bad.
altho it would be alot more convincing if u lowered ur %.
atleast 20% on both energy regain and health regain at max.
keep in mind thats its a 2 in one passive.
either that. or add reroute to it aswell (to have both passives) then u can have higher %s at the cost of more skill points.

i do find bloodmage to be a bad NPCer. most of my time NPCing with bloodmage it was usually 6-8 turns.
and i tried several different builds.

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 11/24/2011 19:47:50 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 25
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