RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread


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1/1/2012 18:25:23

psycho009
Member

rofl, bs plus hybrid= too overpowered, its ridiculous........

Post #: 326

1/1/2012 19:29:36

Westwycke
Member

I am an newer player, having only been playing a little over a month. But what I see is that Hybrid Armor is problematic because it breaks a basic rule of the game.

Everyone starts with the same amount of stat points. Everyone gets the same additional amount of stat points per level. Everyone has access to weapons and armor of equivalent quality and function. Each player can customize their character as they wish, and making a strength in one place generates a weakness somewhere else.

Hybrid Armor breaks this rule by effectively allowing those players to utilize a skill points function as a stat points function on an ongoing basis. The benefits accrued by effectively converting 10 skill points to approx. 40 stat points is much greater than any weakness caused by having fewer skills. Because if you are so much harder to kill, you don't NEED many skills to win, just perseverence.

The other skills that synergize well with Hybrid Armor make it even more egregious, but it is Hybrid Armor unbalancing the stats points equality that is the culprit.

Epic

Post #: 327

1/1/2012 19:31:42

edwardvulture
Member

^ using your logic, varium is breaking the game too

Post #: 328

1/1/2012 20:14:43

rej
Member

quote:

^ using your logic, varium is breaking the game too

Considering that over 80% of the players you face in 1v1 at level 34 are full (or nearly full) var, there is no unfairness of stats. Also, you pay 50$ for those extra stats. You don't pay anything for hybrid. So, no, his logic does not, in any way, apply to varium.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 329

1/1/2012 20:25:16

Renzan
Member

quote:

rofl, bs plus hybrid= too overpowered, its ridiculous........

That's not overpowered. In fact, mercenaries are kinda underpowered a bit.

I am an newer player, having only been playing a little over a month. But what I see is that Hybrid Armor is problematic because it breaks a basic rule of the game.

Everyone starts with the same amount of stat points. Everyone gets the same additional amount of stat points per level. Everyone has access to weapons and armor of equivalent quality and function. Each player can customize their character as they wish, and making a strength in one place generates a weakness somewhere else.

quote:

Hybrid Armor breaks this rule by effectively allowing those players to utilize a skill points function as a stat points function on an ongoing basis. The benefits accrued by effectively converting 10 skill points to approx. 40 stat points is much greater than any weakness caused by having fewer skills. Because if you are so much harder to kill, you don't NEED many skills to win, just perseverence.

The other skills that synergize well with Hybrid Armor make it even more egregious, but it is Hybrid Armor unbalancing the stats points equality that is the culprit.

Not necessarily true. Other classes have other pretty decent passives that are about just as good. Except for TLM who have 2 good passives.

Epic	Post #: 330

1/1/2012 22:52:56

Archlord Raistlin
Member

LOL, only mercenaries would say that they are "underpowered a bit". Here's a match from 5 minutes ago...

TLM has over 120 strength... 37 defense... and 34 reisist... Do you really need any "skills" or "strategy"
with this build? Can any class come even close to matching stats? No... and no. Even after intimidate,
he (and partner) killed us easily... My superior (lol) bloodmage "passive" skills did nothing to level the
playing field. My balanced build is now worse off than it ever was...

There is limited to no incentive for tlm's NOT to abuse stats. So ED shifted abuse from support to
strength...wow. Everyone knew that was coming and mod's are sure players don't know better.

My New Year's prediction: Hybrid will be ineffectively moved down the skill tree, which will cost mercs a
couple of skill points that they dont need anyway. Mercs will complain, designers will pat themselves on
the back for nerfing mercs and life will go on basically unchanged as it always does. Happy New Year...grrr

Post #: 331

1/1/2012 23:15:02

drinde
Member

^
Dude, I think he means MERCS, not the TtMs.

Epic

Post #: 332

1/1/2012 23:21:52

Remorse
Member

Mercenaries are by no means underpowered.

Before the evolved classes were made guess what class was overpowered...... Mercs.
NOw what skill makes them overpowered??? Hybrid.

NOw you take that skill and your practically give it to a mage with better skills and call them a tactical merc, of coarse they are gonna be better then normal mercs, the reason why people think Mercs are underpowered even they though are DEFINATELY NOT, is because they are comparing them with the standard of TLMs which is above all classes.

You switch hybrid for DM on TLMs and guess what, mercs will somehow become one of the best classes agian without even doing anything to the class.
WHY? because they will be the only class with hybird.
BUT I am ok with that, OLD Mercs SHOULD have hybrid as they only have 1 passive and they dont have a defence shrinker such as smoke or malf, so it is extremely fair for them to have hyrbid as thier skill tree affords them to have it. Where as TLMS break all laws of skill trees by having hybrid with another passive AND a defence shrinker (smoke) AND!! to top it off a health regain which can be further sustained by its passives, BUt most of you already know this.

You take away a TLMS hybrid and they will fit within the laws of balaanced skill trees because they wont break the certain requirments skill tree should have if they have hybrid.

Mercs had to sacrifise for Hybrid, so TLMs should to BUT it would be alot better, easier, less likely to go wrong and give the game more variety if they just took awy TLMs hyrbid. Its as simple as that.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 1/1/2012 23:24:23 >

Epic	Post #: 333

1/2/2012 0:00:52

Xendran
Member

For the time period before tlms, bounty hunter was the strongest, but only if you knew how to use it perfectly.

Epic

Post #: 334

1/2/2012 0:22:28

Remorse
Member

^That may be, but the bulk of the population were mercs sugesting it was easier to use and be sucsesful to an extent.

To the same extent as TLMs are oped now, Yes their skill tree is oped but the main reason they are is because they are extremely easy to use and be succsesful and the bulk of the players are the one class.

Before eveoled classes You can argue that BH's were the strongest and I dont necesarily disagree but in my opinion that doesnt make a build/class Oped soley on its on, To be fully oped you need to be strong combined with easy to use combined with the bulk of the population going that class, and cetainly before TLMs normal mercs outnumbered all other classes.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 1/2/2012 0:23:36 >

Epic	Post #: 335

1/2/2012 0:24:48

RageSoul
Member

quote:

Mercenaries are by no means underpowered.

Before the evolved classes were made guess what class was overpowered...... Mercs.
NOw what skill makes them overpowered??? Hybrid.

NOw you take that skill and your practically give it to a mage with better skills and call them a tactical merc, of coarse they are gonna be better then normal mercs, the reason why people think Mercs are underpowered even they though are DEFINATELY NOT, is because they are comparing them with the standard of TLMs which is above all classes.

You switch hybrid for DM on TLMs and guess what, mercs will somehow become one of the best classes agian without even doing anything to the class.
WHY? because they will be the only class with hybird.
BUT I am ok with that, OLD Mercs SHOULD have hybrid as they only have 1 passive and they dont have a defence shrinker such as smoke or malf, so it is extremely fair for them to have hyrbid as thier skill tree affords them to have it. Where as TLMS break all laws of skill trees by having hybrid with another passive AND a defence shrinker (smoke) AND!! to top it off a health regain which can be further sustained by its passives, BUt most of you already know this.

You take away a TLMS hybrid and they will fit within the laws of balaanced skill trees because they wont break the certain requirments skill tree should have if they have hybrid.

Mercs had to sacrifise for Hybrid, so TLMs should to BUT it would be alot better, easier, less likely to go wrong and give the game more variety if they just took awy TLMs hyrbid. Its as simple as that.

Not UPed , you say? Wow , when did +13 became OPed? And also , have you not noticed that STR BH will most likely go back on the top again ? Plus , you didn't realize the fact that TM , Merc , CH and BM cannot decrease DEX , so that's why a TLM with a good amount of DEX = Strong Technician . And it has the same progression with Malf , so CH & TM and have smaller chances of winning , and that's same thing with Merc and BM with Energy weapons ( either Primary or Gun and Aux ) , but Mercs and BMs can't weaken TECH , so most likely no , that's gonna ruin balance again and many people will complain that BH is OPed again . The solution ? Remove Technician from TLMS .

AQW

Epic

Post #: 336

1/2/2012 0:38:54

Remorse
Member

^Congrats, you fixed 1 TLM build that was oped, its a shame that wont help all the other oped builds which DONT use technicain.

STR BH may go to the top BUT TLMs with Defence matrix would easily take them down.

Plus I dont think STR BH are properly balanced either Due to the extra power gieven from enhancements.

Your logic for wanting to remove technican is faulty, You argue that TLMs defence is too great when the use technican agaisnt some classes BUT is technicain the problem? or is it the passive constant defence that makes them tank?

Removed Hybrid their energy defence will fall aswell as they would have to put some more points from tech into dex to back up the defence lost from hybrid, PLUS if you dont have bother phiscal and energ attacks in your build by now your are seriolsy doing something wrong, so by saying CH, Mages, etc fail agianst TLMS because of their technican I doubt you are seeing the bigger picture.

Without hybrid ALL classes will be able to attack their weakness which may be lower defence or it could be lower resistance.

Technican is a problem But it is NOT if you take away only one skill to fix all and that one skill is hybrid.

Epic	Post #: 337

1/2/2012 0:42:30

ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!

@remorse Technician is a big problem for the TLM skill tree. I faced builds that knocked my major strength build damage down to 20's with DA and Fireball. Then they throw in Technician and hit for 60s with their bots after they smoke me for 40 dex. If they don't smoke and bot then they hit me for huge damage with their Surgical Strike. Without rage I stand no chance against the super tank builds.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 338

1/2/2012 0:50:25

Remorse
Member

^ Yes I know it is, I did say that.

BUT it is not an even hint of a problem if yout take away their hybrid.

By removing technician you are taking a slow apprach to fix TLMS one which will never work unless you take away almost all of their skills which combined with hybrid become oped,.

BUT DONT forget by taking away thier hybrid,

Technican, aswell as smoke, aswell as reroute aswell as atom smash, aswll as frenzy, aswell as toxic grenade. NO LONGER BECOME A PROBLEM NOR WILL THEY MAKE THE CLASS OPED ALONE WITHOUT HYBIRD.
This is why thier is alot of confusion as to what skills to change in the balance discussion because all these skills are a rpoblem on the TLM tree BUT ONLY when they are combined with hybrid.

You guys need to realise that yes technicain is a problem on the TLM tree but removing it cannot and willnot be the solution in the long run because many skills TLMS have combined with hybrid are oped.

So WHY NOT just remove one skill and replace it with one which may still give some advvanatges to the class such as with Defence matrix they will only need to invest 1-2 points into it for decent defence sparing up 8-9 skill points for TLMs to use.

I wouldnt even call removing hybrid a nerf I would call it a change because nerfs only give disadvanatges were as changes provide other benfits.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 1/2/2012 0:55:36 >

Epic	Post #: 339

1/2/2012 0:57:34

RageSoul
Member

@Remorse
So why are you complaining it's OPed then? Because OPed classes do not need buffs , but in this case , you're buffing them up by means of using other skills .

AQW

Epic

Post #: 340

1/2/2012 1:10:53

Remorse
Member

Its Oped Because of the combinations of skills which make them oped.

Giving them defnce matrix instead of hybrid will stop ALOT of their skills being oped.

Giving them defence matrix will certianly NOT buff them but it will give them other benefits while stopping oped combinations.
I dont want to destroy the class so giving them DM is a fair tradeoff in my opinion. BUT WONT make them oped AT ALL.

Epic	Post #: 341

1/2/2012 1:20:41

drodrae
Member

Remorse is right. Replacing HA with DM will require TlMs to use up one turn to actually increase their def and use up a minor amount of energy. They'll then also need decent Support if they wish DM to be effective at low levels. If a TlM doesn't want to use DM then he'll have to invest more in dex to compensate for the loss of HA, and since TlMs have no improved-thru-dex-skill, it's a minor loss of stat points. It's all just a little less points for them to spam one stat, making their skills more potent and having a larger choice but in exchange for a more balanced stat distribution.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 342

1/2/2012 2:26:19

Archlord Raistlin
Member

After some experimentation, here's about the best str build I could manage with my equipment...
You can compare to the previous TLM build i described...(120+ str, 37 def, 34 resist) and yes I could
use the 40 stat points in place of hybrid that tlm's dont have to spend. Sadly, even that would
not get a mage onto a level playing field...

str = 76 + 17
dex = 34 + 32 for 21-26 +9 +1
tech = 36 + 44 for 27-33 +1
sup = 42 + 22

This is NO WHERE CLOSE (lol) to what a TLM can generate with hybrid:
...plus 30 more strength ...plus 6 more defense ...plus 6 more resistance

so remind me again how this is NOT OP ?

So instead of trying to play creatively and with some strategy...this build is reduced to an
all-or-nothing, gun and zerk, forget defending, bashfest. It's a 50/50 proposition at best
and no way to play the game...

Be rid of TLM hybrid altogether and start having players face the same kinds of build decisions...

Strength bounty's advantage is the big attack that can't be blocked. What does a bloodmage
have ? Oh yeah, an easily blockable berzerker. Way to go Epic Duel...

so remind me again why anyone is a mage?

Post #: 343

1/2/2012 3:30:18

ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!

@archlord I deal more damage with my unblockable Fireball then I usually deal with my Berzerker. My gun does more damage as well assuming it isn't deflected. There are often many battles where I am able to kill a BH before he Massacres on me. I can deal 30+ damage with a physical attack on a TLM with 40+ defense. Now after seeing all that, tell me if you still think BM is underpowered.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 344

1/2/2012 3:39:31

Remorse
Member

^ Their not underpowered, But they lack an energy drain making them open to be energy drained themselves, Because usally the best counter to being drained is counter draining your opponents mana aswell.

Certain Blood mages builds are great but their skill tree is lacking the certain basic formula for a skill tree which is why variety of their builds are small and why you basically only see STR builds.

Blood mages do have boderline oped builds, I call it oped because any build which can take someone down no matter what the oppenet does to counter them Is oped in my eyes.

Taking someone down in 2-3 shots with almost nothing to stop that from happening can be considerd Oped and it also restricts stratgic builds and forces them all to by powerful builds.

Hence why 80%+ of 1v1 builds these days are revovled around power whetehr it be high mascre , supercharge extreme tanking etc. All these builds have a thing in common and thatis they can destroy each other with luck and hence strategy has no place in 1v1 much anymore.

Epic	Post #: 345

1/2/2012 10:19:08

I am Primal
Member

hey archlord bro welcome to the forums glad your trying to fix balance and i couldn't agree more with what your saying. blood mage has no chance not survive in 2 vs 2 it;s crap tlms dominate every single battle mode and people say there not op. well yes they aren't impossible to kill but there still op. for example in League Of Legends a far better game not as costly ect. it has it's op characters, but u cna kill them . theres this guy with an ability to never die for 5 seconds which is mega op right? and lifesteal on top of that. many many many people can pwn him but he's still op. get where i'm going here? all because tlms aren't impossible to kill there still op.

Post #: 346

1/2/2012 11:22:24

Aere
Member

The sum of the skills is greater than each individual part. Taking away one skill would remove a single factor, while weakening the affects of the build as a whole would influence all of the skills which were out of line.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 347

1/2/2012 12:18:38

BlueKatz
Member

HA is OP. Why can't we just simple nerf it?
I have an idea though, pretty simple.

First I will tell you how broken HA is
ReRound give you MP base on the damage enemy dealt on you. So from lv 1-33 assume that the game is more balanced that it is lv 1 and lv 33 in 1 turn with same build get the same amount of MP (the high level will get a bit more though, for many reasons) because while your HP and enemy's damage is increased, the defense in the game is naturally increased as well
Same with BL, you deal more damage but enemy have more defense
DA is not broken... yet because you can use it after 3 turns so the Damage/3 hardly make it imbalance, also the amount of bonus is reduced at higher rank
SA is broken but people don't talk about it much because it's luck base

Ha give you 12-13 Defense, at higher level, it's a lot compare to low level (and it's already very strong at low level). Of course every skill become more effective at higher level but HA give an insane amount of bonus. 13 Defense mean like 40+ Dex (if it give Block then it would be 60+). With current Stat distribution (or something) it make no sense because everything get lower bonus at higher value except HA. HA also get stable add up (1-2-3-4-5) instead of being lower the higher skill rank

tl;dr
Basically add negative effect on HA so it will be punished or increase at same rate as any other skill. My best idea is adding 1% Defense Ignore toward HA user each Skill Rank used on HA

So at rank 10 user get 13 Defense and gain 13% Defense Ignore on themselves.

Example: (sorry I forgot the HA formula so they are just example)
Rank 10 HA on 32 Def user: 32+13-(32+13)*13%(round up)= 39 Def (7 Def Bonus)
Rank 1 HA on 32 Def user: 32+2-(32+2)*2%(round up)= 33 Def (1 Def Bonus)
Rank 5 HA on 26 Def user: 26+8-(26+8)*8%(round up)= 31 De (5 Def Bonus)

AQW

Epic

Post #: 348

1/2/2012 20:33:56

drinde
Member

^
Wait, how about each Level of Hybrid adds a bonus % of the base Defense? Up to around 30%...

For example, a person with 25-30 Defense would have a base of 25. Max hybrid = 30% bonus, so it would ve 25 + (25x .3) which becomes 25 +8 Defense.

So you can't have too little Dexterity for a build, and maybe move the Hybrid Req to Support.

Epic

Post #: 349

1/2/2012 20:36:57

D.v.D.
Member

quote:

^
Wait, how about each Level of Hybrid adds a bonus % of the base Defense? Up to around 30%...

For example, a person with 25-30 Defense would have a base of 25. Max hybrid = 30% bonus, so it would ve 25 + (25x .3) which becomes 25 +8 Defense.

So you can't have too little Dexterity for a build, and maybe move the Hybrid Req to Support.

lol SO the more dex you have the more hybrid armor gives?

Epic

Post #: 350

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