RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread


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1/17/2012 0:02:17

JohnMenzies
Member

Also the devs should add like some non-Varium wepons that maybe have an effect on players on the same or higher level to give them somewhat of a better chance?

_____________________________

- John

Epic	Post #: 626

1/17/2012 0:02:42

Lord Nub
Member

@Menzies first post of his double post,

Would be interesting but it would have a pretty big negative effect as well.

Players who already copy builds would do so even more according to the tracker. Originality is hard enough to come by as it is.

If they could keep it extremely broad then it could work.

< Message edited by Lord Nub -- 1/17/2012 0:03:37 >

AQW

Epic

Post #: 627

1/17/2012 0:05:53

Remorse
Member

@goony
This us always the hardest part to explain.

I say it is OP not because they have a high win rate, infact they could have an extremely LOW win rate and still be oped in my eyes.

Oped in the sence they have the abailty To kill people effortlessy with out anything they can do about it.

It is not just Stun zerk build, I dont really have a problem with that because of the lack you see. (however I did when they were in fashion and just because I dont seem them much or because the dont win much doesnt mean it is fine to have stratigies like these)

I also think ALOT of strength build fall under this catagory of my version of OPed.
Because many strength builds CAN win just by starting regardless of what the oppenent tries to do.

The other problem is that the lack of ways to kill them, this is why they are oped their is very little you can do if a blood mages start. EMP and sheilding is almost uselss because the one turn you waste is enough for them to destroy you.

All I wish is for ED battles which had victory determined by startegy and wits rather then whoever an get the most power by speding the most on enahcments, And I dont care if I lose more because of yhis change, because This is what it should be like.

People should not have the right to obtain effortless wins.
It is ruining varity because all you see are power builds because they are practically the only way you can beat other ones and tanks because they stand a chance.

And if you click 1v1 100 times a day excluding lower level charcters this is what you will see more then 95% of the time.

What happened to the variety? and the creativity? they get destoyed instantly be these power builds thats what.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 1/17/2012 0:10:11 >

Epic	Post #: 628

1/17/2012 0:29:01

JohnMenzies
Member

I think this will bring some competition with the new tank cyber hunters. :/

_____________________________

- John

Epic	Post #: 629

1/17/2012 0:40:17

Goony
Constructive!

OK take away the "power build" from merc, BH and blood mage, the battle tracker will sort that out... There will be nothing left to do but try to out tank the opponent and since the best option for merc, BH and blood mage, due to the energy regain, is to kill the opponent as quickly as possible you are being merciless to these classes...

The so called power build conversation borders on being about the ED game finances, I have avoided it so far due to that, but the enhancement system and the way it works is fine and it works to the extent that the community requested.

There is enough strategy and wits in the game, you just need to look beyond your own personal class sometimes. The variety of builds has never been greater and there are some great new players joining the game. I probably wouldn't be in here as much if the class I was playing wasn't so under powered and if you judge balance by the comments... Maybe there is a trend, although from what I see it's generally the 2 -3 strongest classes reflecting on the balance between those classes. There are some good posts. But the suggestions for new skills sometimes overides the actual balance discussion.

@JM That's why I would like to see the facts. The tracker is only going to be basic, I hope it tracks 1st turn , but will probably not track skills used and damage;)

Epic	Post #: 630

1/17/2012 1:55:55

Xendran
Member

===Mercenary===

Remove: Bloodshield
Reason: Mercenaries have no MP or HP regen, therefore HP is too precious to spend on only resistance. Mercenaries only have one passive, compared to cyber hunters or tlm who have an equally good passive as well as incredibly strong other passives.
Add: Combat Mastery

Passively increases accuracy and stun resistance.

Level 1:  1% Increase
Level 2:  2% Increase
Level 3:  3% Increase
Level 4:  4% Increase
Level 5:  5% Increase
Level 6:  6% Increase
Level 7:  7% Increase
Level 8:  8% Increase
Level 9:  9% Increase
Level 10: 10% Increase



Remove: Intimidate
Reason: Lack of usefulness in current day battles
Add: Sabotage
Cost: 10 at level 1
Cost Increase: 2 per level

Lowers the effectiveness of your opponents weaponry!

Values: Scales half as well as shields. Has half the initial starting value of shields. Lowers the damage on all weapons by this amount.


===Tech Mage===

Modify: Assimilate
Reason: No cost, ineffective, unreliable, miniscule energy regain is not useful for a tech mage.
Cost: 15
Cost Increase: 2 per level

Lower enemy energy while dealing damage!

Reduces energy at the same rate as emp
Builds rage
Blockable


===Blood Mage===
Remove: Intimidate
Reason: Lack of usefulness in current day battles
Add: Assimilate
Cost: See Tech Mage
Cost Increase: See Tech Mage


===Cyber Hunter===

Remove: Static Charge
Reason: Overpowered in comjunction with Shadow Arts, Plasma Shield & High Dexterity
Add: Static Charnge (Passive)

Adds a percentage of damage you inflict to your energy

    Level 1: 7%
    Level 2: 9%
    Level 3: 11%
    Level 4: 13%
    Level 5: 15%
    Level 6: 17%
    Level 7: 18%
    Level 8: 19%
    Level 9: 20%
    Level 10: 21%



Remove: Shadow Arts
Reason: Passive Static charge to take over as secondary passive.
Add: Technician

kdone

< Message edited by Xendran -- 1/17/2012 3:58:23 >

Epic

Post #: 631

1/17/2012 2:29:11

Goony
Constructive!

kdone, never ;)

Merc skills looks ok, I assume you mean defence matrix or energy shield when you refer to sabotage "half as much as shields" as the basis for the figures... Improves with support??? Can it be blocked??? Does it generate the same way as in by strike...

Assimilate = no way, too powerful with def/res ignore like cheapshot on damage... are you joking? I suppose it increases rage too, lol :(

Agree with static change, so like bloodlust except energy or the opposite of reroute in relation to the damage is inflicted rater than taken to regain energy...

Not sure about technician, that's a bit much, field commander instead... That is unless there are plans to buff that ;)

< Message edited by Goony -- 1/17/2012 2:30:27 >

Epic	Post #: 632

1/17/2012 2:45:14

Xendran
Member

What's wrong with assimilate? it costs double what cheapshot and emp do, -3 due to lack of a critical chance and the ability to be blockable. At level 1 this is on average an additional 3-4 damage. That's not overpowered.
Sabotage can be blocked but the effect cant.
And how is technician a bit much compared to field commander? Remember that cybers currently have mass...
And field commander will most likely be ~~buffed~~ changed as well.

EDIT: Also with assimilate, have you TESTED the new version to see if its overpowered or not?
Didn't think so.

< Message edited by Xendran -- 1/17/2012 2:50:22 >

Epic

Post #: 633

1/17/2012 2:56:44

Remorse
Member

great ideas xen,

Excpet you might as well keep intimidate's name for the change in the skill you sugested though.

@ goony,

I have no idea how you think variety is at it's peak....

Maybe you NPC too much,

Because all I see are the exact same builds over and over.

You have me mistacken,

I dont want power builds REMOVED, I just want them to be given more counters, Counters are usally the best way to balance soemthing because to be succseful with counters you have to be sucseful with strategy which means you must have wits, Which means they will be used more in battle which means much more interesting gameplay.

Power builds have always been a part of variety I dont want it tacken away,
I just want to change the fact that they can pull of easy wins without thinking.

Or at least a less likely chance to win without thinking then it is currently.

The problem is power builds can obtain high power with barely any sacrifise, alot of power builds have as much or even higher defence then alot of classes without passive defences making their effotless wins all the more easier to pull off.

Take away their power without sacrifise and counters will automatically make themselves.

Epic	Post #: 634

1/17/2012 3:06:05

Ranloth
Banned

Xendran's ideas are quite decent. It seems like Static would work like BL, so in favour of all builds really which I also suggested to Wiseman before. :P
About Merc's passive - it isn't that bad, they think (Devs) of passive for them as well but wouldn't that be too weak? It could end up like SA which at time as only passive, was weak.. Although might be just me, and I need good reason to open my eyes to it! xD
About Assimilate - I don't like it if it was changed to that.. It's good as it is, not too strong but maybe small buff would be good (more Energy taken/gained?). And YES for swapping Intimidate for Assimilation! :D

Epic

Post #: 635

1/17/2012 3:11:32

BlueKatz
Member

I like the idea of making Charge Passive (we already heard of this suggestion a lot of time already) because it actually allow CH to use something else beside STR build.
However with that CH is still way too strong, I think it should be punished more. The skill tree of CH is just unbelievable and it has all good skills beside Plasma Grenade. I have no idea how to nerf this beside messing its skill tree even more and make Charge regen MP even slower.

quote:

Modify: Assimilate
Reason: No cost, ineffective, unreliable, miniscule energy regain is not useful for a tech mage.
Cost: 17
Cost Increase: 2 per level

Lower enemy energy while dealing damage!

Reduces energy at the same rate as emp
Ignores Defense/Resistance on damage portion of the attack at the same rate as cheap shot
No additional critical strike
Blockable

This is OP. Yes while it's double cost and doesn't crit and blockable. It's 2 skills in 1 so you cost less Skill Point. Also this is another Cost s Opportunity cost issue in Turn Base game. This skill do double effect in 1 turn, mean it's like using 2 skills and get 1 free turn. So this skill not only get less Skill Point, but also get 1 free turn.
You didn't take this into account so you might want to change this

quote:

Reduces energy at the same rate as emp
Ignores Defense/Resistance on damage portion of the attack at the same rate as cheap shot

or the MP cost

AQW

Epic

Post #: 636

1/17/2012 3:11:34

Goony
Constructive!

Oh well I guess I will have too agree to disagree here...

@Xen, how would I have been able to test it and since when did you get access to the test server? Haven't seen any announcements of you joining the team. If so congrats and good luck!

My preference to the energy drain issue is just take intim off blood mages and give them atom smasher and give mages EMP grenade for assimilate.

Now that you have balanced it so that all all classes have a good energy drain skill, how will you restore balance the classes without energy regain skills?

As for technician, both cyber grenades improve with technology and resistance and robot damage, too much?

< Message edited by Goony -- 1/17/2012 3:53:50 >

Epic	Post #: 637

1/17/2012 3:11:42

Remorse
Member

It would make blood mages the only class without a debuff...

I persoanally think Blood mages dont need asimilate infact if they got it, it would make their extremely powerful strength builds worse.

It would be better if they just buffed intimidate to make it take wepon and sidearm damage. rather then strength.

@Goonay,
Give maul to blood mages.....

You have to be joking.....

Have you versed their extreme strngth builds?

They are by far bad enough without that terrible skill.
Not to mention they would have 2 stuns.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 1/17/2012 3:17:16 >

Epic	Post #: 638

1/17/2012 3:23:25

Goony
Constructive!

Sorry typo meant atom smasher!

Well he's going to give Blood Mages a skill that improve with strength to do damage and ignores defences, that is truly frightening , the difference is atom smasher just does energy damage, is blockable and does not generate rage build.

Epic	Post #: 639

1/17/2012 3:29:52

Xendran
Member

bluekatz: The two skills in one argument can also be held for maul. If you really want, the ep cost could be increased, and i DID stat the ep cost. 17 at 1, 35 at max.
At least it actually has a cost, unlike current assim / static. If necessary the EP cost could be raised, but until it's tested in a real battle situation, i stand by the fact that it's not overpowered. EP cost is negotiable.

Also, cyber hunters have a skill that improves with strenght and ignores defence: Cheapshot
bounty hunters also have that: cheap shot
Mercs have that: maul

The amount of defence it ignores is seriously negligible, cheap shot is actually ineffective for the cost compared to thigns like maul and double strike., and it even gives crit chance.

Epic

Post #: 640

1/17/2012 3:50:32

BlueKatz
Member

@Xendran Idk if I understand your skill wrong, but if it's EMP plus Cheap Shot then it would be very OP. At Max it will deal + 5 damage and destroy like 40 MP with just 35 MP cost (note that it does deal damage). Both Cheap Shot and EMP at max cost the same as that skill but take 2 turns

This will depend on how you call "Like EMP"

AQW

Epic

Post #: 641

1/17/2012 3:52:05

Xendran
Member

EMP is unblockable, Cheap shot has additional critical damage and builds rage. This skill has neither. Maul is cheaper and its Cheap shot + Stun grenade

Epic

Post #: 642

1/17/2012 3:55:31

BlueKatz
Member

The extra Turn and 10 Free Skill Point still make it too good deal
I would hate if we have to deal with another "essence" skills again

AQW

Epic

Post #: 643

1/17/2012 3:57:46

Xendran
Member

It's not really 10 free skill points, but you can go ahead with that thinking.
If the defence ignoring is removed, i'm lowering the cost and allowing rage buildup.

EDIT: Done

< Message edited by Xendran -- 1/17/2012 3:58:52 >

Epic

Post #: 644

1/17/2012 4:08:22

BlueKatz
Member

Well guess that more acceptable. I'm STR TM so I already know how good it is, this skill (the old one) with Technical will be way too strong

AQW

Epic

Post #: 645

1/17/2012 4:11:53

Xendran
Member

Main reason the current one is the way it is, is because it's free. It shouldn't be free, and it should be more effective

Epic

Post #: 646

1/17/2012 4:16:24

Goony
Constructive!

Well as long as it's fair. As a merc I see a mage coming at me with decent dex, as in the super charge build... or 5 focus... Malf, assim, gun and rage aux... Gone before the blink of an eye ;)

Epic	Post #: 647

1/17/2012 4:18:58

Remorse
Member

@xen
I think if you want it like this you will have to change warm ups and cool downs.

It should have a 3 warm up,
and a 4 cool down.

Why?
because versing mages regardless of whether you have energy regians you will basically have no energy.

Yes you can argue EMP does the same but people who use it sacrifise valuble turns and dont get rage, turns are very important these days wasting a turn on emp/sheilds can be very risky, were as asimialtion like this would have no risk because you can keep up with damage output and rage gain.

@goonay, if it was like this I bet they would asim fist rather then malf because it costs alot of energy so reroute will be working straight away and if their oppenent has no manna they cant defend from malf the next turn.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 1/17/2012 4:22:23 >

Epic	Post #: 648

1/17/2012 4:33:02

Xendran
Member

it would be 2 warm up 3 cool down

Epic

Post #: 649

1/17/2012 4:39:27

Remorse
Member

You might be able to get away with 2 warm up and 4 cool down, But I doubt 2 warm up and a 3 cool down which is less cool down then it is currently

Epic	Post #: 650

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