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RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread

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11/27/2011 4:30:18   
BlueKatz
Member

quote:

really what type of combos aside from using smoke with the obvious maul, double strike and frenzy. which even an unpexpirience player would know to do.

I'm fairly busy lately so don't bother list but anyone know TLM have more combo than any other classes.

quote:

yeah but before that u tell me tlms require less strategy than the other classes. which isn't true. that why i said that. it was towards ur previous post.

Well sorry then it's not like everyone's post is so accurate

quote:

yeah and not everyone knows how to use them right.

And you expect everyone use other classes right... TLM's worst build can stand against any other's classes decent build.
TLM does not require anything better...

quote:

i dont find it ridiculous for someone with his amount of dex too block someone with little dex. i guess u dont realize how much dex he has because he doesn't show his build in the video. (or people would copy it just like newbs copied builds from pro tlms players in early delta what i find ridiculous is low dex constantly blocking higher dex and then people come on the forums and say that it is fine.

Righttt.... he has roundly 15-20% Blocks without smoke. Still better than BH common 20-30% block and same as smoke TLM and CH

quote:

ok, very skilled tlm 96%.
very skilled tech mage 96%-98%
very skilled bloodmage 95%
Very skilled cyber hunter 95% (i gotten almost 94% on and had a couple of unlucky losses)
very Skilled BH 95% (i seen people with focus get 98%)

Umm I have seen TLM having 98-99% win rate using 5 Focus, TLM also have really high win count using STR.
TM only have good win count when fight NPC and vs someone who have good all around build and have Bot.
Saw BH with higher win rate btw
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 101
11/27/2011 18:00:11   
Hun Kingq
Member

In 2vs2 you have to take down the strength tac merc first but for some reason players want to malfunction or smoke the player that could do less damage. out of 5 2vs2 matches against the same strength tac merc I lost one match because my partner decided to go after his partner. First I used max level Intimidation he still got 50 damage with double strike then I tried max reflex boost with being smoked I was at 31-35 +9+1 defense and he still got 50+ on double strike so really how high dex the blood mage has to go and what do we have to sacrifice more strength , more tech, more support, health, or put energy at 44 and no higher or sacrifice everything have very low deadly aim with very low support and strength basically having no offensive skills nothing but defensive skills. Does being nothing but a defensive Class meet any description of that class at all? A strength Blood Mage has a hard time competing against a strength/support tact merc or a high dex Cyber Hunter due to the high damage they give from the multi.

Just giving an energy steal skill to the Blood Mage will not bring balance to the game because every time you strike they get that energy back. If you don't dish out heavy damage then it is about impossible to win the match but a lot of players here don't realize that and since the Blood mage has to have a high tech/dex build how can they dish out heavy damage when the tact merc has between 26 and 28 resistance with +13 on the Hybrid armor so with the Plasma Cannon instead or getting +60 damage you only get between 30-40 damage and with sacrificing energy to boost dex and tech that means you only can use it once.

You can't say the Blood Mage is a strength based class based on just two offensive skills which one is blocked and the other is weak unless you have very high strength basically making you defenseless. The majority of offensive skills improve with dex/tech but with smoke and malfunction the blood mage losses that effectiveness as well as taking on massive damage.

To bring balance not only does the Blood Mage need an effective energy stealing skill that would negate the energy return of reroute but also more effective skills than Technician, reflex boost, Intimidation, and a multi strike skill that the Blood Mage could call their own. Maybe the way to go instead of a nerf but make the Blood Mage over powered to bring out the description that they gave the Blood Mage.
Epic  Post #: 102
11/27/2011 20:00:50   
Emptiness
Member
 

 Blood mage needs an energy taking skill, a skill similar to atom smash except used with a staff would benefit them as i've gotten a 95% win rate with Bm but the problem is that the loses came from not being able to take there energy away, so you have no choice but to take all the damage without a solution to stop it. A simple boost from an opponent with reroute and they just heal with the damage you dish out, a skill to take en energy away would become very handy at that point. Plus from what I've seen from my battles 5 focus tlms could use some balancng but i'll save my ideas after the so called nerf to them occurs.
Post #: 103
11/27/2011 20:06:02   
Stabilis
Member

Blood mage is pretty much equal to bounty hunter without deadly aim... and that my friends, is hilarious!

Let me just tell you that although blood mage is by far comparable to bounty hunter, bounty hunter is by far much better than blood mage.

_____________________________
AQ Epic  Post #: 104
11/27/2011 20:17:35   
Emptiness
Member
 

 @greenrain13
It's a matter of opinion if you think one class is better than another class, why is it better? win rate, speed, it all depends on several factors, and so far while playing bloodmage i have yet to lose to a bounty hunter and i've faced strength hunters, 5 focus, dex, so far my loses came mainly from tm and tlms this is out of 400 wins to. Bm is a harder class to master just like its counterpart tm but the rewards are great, the only skill it's missing is an energy taking skill and after the nerf to tlms I hope it can be called an equal to the tlms and not just looked down upon by most players.

< Message edited by Emptiness -- 11/27/2011 20:18:23 >
Post #: 105
11/27/2011 20:22:27   
Stabilis
Member

^ Interview time Mr. Emptiness: What do you think is the biggest factor in your advantage over bounty hunters?
AQ Epic  Post #: 106
11/29/2011 3:24:05   
Goony
Constructive!


 On the 29th of June Delta was launched along with a range of new classes. Almost 5 months ago now!

7 weeks later on the 17th of August a range of balance adjustments were implemented to lay the foundation for future balance adjustments.

Then on the 10th of October Titan added some additional requirements for some skills.

It's now the end of November and collectively all these adjustment have impacted greatly on the Mercenary class.

This class doesn't recover health or energy, it cannot decrease the opponents defence or resistance or significantly increase their own defence or resistance as other classes can.

Why have they had:

A requirement added to hybrid armor
A requrement added to maul
Double strike damage decreased unless of course you increase the level and use more energy that is static
Bezerker damage decreased unless of course you increase the level and use more energy that is static

So when you put a Tactical Mercenary beside Mercenary this is how bad it looks.

Mercenary vs Tactical Mercenary

Both heals are same
Both double strikes are the same
Both have hybrid armor
Both can use maul
Mercenary can improve strength and reduce opponents strength, remember that the balance changes have impacted greatly on strength skills
Mercenaries can use bunker buster, a skill that is only effective with high technology and significant energy investment on a class that does not regain energy
Both can use Artillary
Mercenaries can use bezerker, a skill that has been reduced in effectiveness and is reliant on high energy that makes it hard to use considering that both classes can remove energy based on their strength by using atom smash.
Both can use surgical strike

Now for the killer differences :(

Both classes can improve resistance, tactical mercenaries can do it by using technician, a skill that improves with dexterity (the dexterity requirements pretty much make a level 1 compariable to blood shield) it costs the tactical mercenary energy that can be regained, unfortunately the only way other than switching hybrid and reducing defences is that a mercenary will lose health to improve resistance. The tactical mercenaries also get improvements in other skills by using technician, surgical strike, robot damage and of course as mentioned before smoke screen...

Tactical Mercenaries have toxic grenade, a DOT skill that ignores defences. Expensive to max but the only class that combines unblockable DOT skill with energy regain.

Reroute, what can I say one class can regain energy and the other can't and it makes a massive difference as the skill tree is basically what defines the diference between classes. Statistics at the top level make no difference, it's the skills and how they are used. Having more energy means being able to use more skills and this is so hard to combat. It's hard enough to combat it on Tech Mages, but their skill set does not have the damage output in comparison to the Tactical Mercenaries.

Then to top off the humiliation you may as well give tactical mercenaries a way to regain health, it's called frenzy and it is way over the top when used with rage or smoke screen or just for the added effect use it with both.

Now some will say I am just a whinging mercenary and I should just change class, but that is not the point here. The point is that if the Tactical Mercenary class and the Mercenary class were balanced then a lot of the balance issues could be rectified.

Perhaps the testers should have fights betwwen Mercenary and Tactical Mercenary and try to find a comprimise there. Because, the way that it has worked in the prior balance updates has done absolutely nothing to address the gaping balance discrepency that should be easily apparent.

< Message edited by Goony -- 11/29/2011 3:30:37 >

_____________________________

In Epic Duel,
success is not final,
failure is not fatal
and it is the courage to continue that counts!
Epic  Post #: 107
11/29/2011 3:32:26   
Elf Priest JZaanu
Constructive!


 I just moved this from the Q and A section to here due to my post more fitting the Balance criteria.

"As much as Varium Mages are rare to see in game-play, I honestly have seen less Varium Mercenaries. Points have been made about the Tactical Merc class, and it would be great to have the Original Mercenary compete on equal ground as their Evolved Cousin.

With my Merc Alt, Attack for Attack it is equal with Tactical Merc, but the difference is simply the ability, at low and no cost, with skills like Reroute and Frenzy gives this class an ability to move any direction (Forward, Passive, Tank, Back peddle) while all the other classes do have areas where they are limited and exposed.

I do hope the adjustments that are being make will continue to level out.

As I mentioned many times prior, Class-Change must be limited and must have some sacrifice, simply because, once there is an opportunity to exploit, it will happen, and then game/demographic balance continues to shift.
"

< Message edited by JZaanu -- 11/29/2011 3:33:27 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 108
11/29/2011 14:46:42   
Stabilis
Member

I have suggestions for class skills:

Mercenary: Better field medic, throw in even more attack skills, add defense matrix and/or energy shield.

Tech mage: Replace defense matrix with a damage absorbing shield improving with nothing, replace assimilation with a skill that passively causes opponents' skills to cost more energy.

Bounty hunter: Remove field medic (having 2 or more healing skills is redundant), give them a skill which makes them untargetable (invisibility), have reflex boost improve with strength, give them a skill which uses their gun or auxiliary effectively, make massacre blockable.

Tactical mercenary: Either maul or double strike can be replaced with an attack improving with dex (stun grenade?), hybrid armour should compensate for both defense and resistance, remove technician, give them a passive, reducing the enemy's rage accumulation, replace reroute with an attack that gives energy (comparable to a weaker version of static charge)

Blood mage: Replace fireball for assimilation... next!

Cyber hunter: Replace technician with energy shield, weaken malfunction

edit: Oh, and armours don't have special attacks? Wink wink.

Posts merged, please do not double post as it is considered spam. Please use the edit button instead to add additional information to your post. ~Illuminator

< Message edited by Illuminator -- 11/29/2011 22:04:38 >

_____________________________
AQ Epic  Post #: 109
11/29/2011 21:37:12   
Goony
Constructive!


 Suggestion to improve Mercenaries.

Make field commander a passive, it is rarely used due to the fact that the turn and energy it costs to activate doesn't compensate for the extra damage. The base damage may need to be lowered and the position on the skill tree could be interchanged with blood shield. Since it improves with support, which has no relation to strength the boost is offset as too improve field commander you need to invest points in support. The issue would be the effect on balance in the lower levels, perhaps another skill that improves with level.
Epic  Post #: 110
11/29/2011 22:34:01   
drinde
Member

^
How about making it a Toggle Skill?

As in clicking it would make it active, and would take a small amount of EP, but it does not cost a turn.
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 111
11/29/2011 22:56:23   
Hun Kingq
Member

Since so many people here thinks they know balance when they see it then tell me if this is balanced? Look at where each starts.

Plasma Rain:
Improves With: Technology
(+1 damage at 28 Technology; +1 damage per 4 Technology after)

Multi-Shot:
Improves With: Dexterity (+1 damage per 4 Dexterity)

Artillery Strike:
Improves With: Support (+1 damage at 22 Support; +1 damage per 4 Support after)

With lack of blocking with the mage class all what a strength tact merc has to do is smoke, strike, double strike or just plain strike and double strike and maybe it is time to increase the block rate for the mage classes.

A Support tact merc all what they have to do is smoke then multi then aux.

A tech tact merc smoke, robot punches.

So again why give one class something to increase damage but don't give nothing to another class to increase damage?

Give the Blood Mage a debuff skill that affects all stats but the stat with the highest gets the largest debuff but also have it where it can be selected in increasing energy damage or physical damage because it is not right that the Blood Mage class, a new class, has nothing to debuff tech to decreasee the damage from the bot especially the Gamma Bot.
Epic  Post #: 112
11/30/2011 4:12:14   
Wootz
Member

I won't even even bother writing down everything you've written stupidly.
AQW Epic  Post #: 113
11/30/2011 4:47:27   
Jekyll
Member

@Hun Kingq: As a bloodmage myself, I feel that your ideas are out to make the bloodmage class OPed. Your ideas are, well, decent, but way too extreme. Your going where no tactical mercenary has gone before.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 114
11/30/2011 20:27:38   
Hun Kingq
Member

If you are a true Blood Mage then only alt you would have would be a Blood Mage or a tech Mage because if you have any other class as an alt then truly you are not a mage at heart. If you change class from a Blood Mage to a Cyber Hunter or a tact merc in these tough times you are not a mage at heart. If you change from a tact merc, merc, Cyber Hunter, Bounty Hunter to a Blood Mage in no time at all you will change back because you are not a mage at heart. If you are a Blood Mage and truly care about that class then you would want more for the class with better skills even if it gives additional power to the class and it is impossible for the Blood Mage to be over powered because they made sure of that in the programming code.

It is quite clear no one knows what balanced is because no one answered this question "Since so many people here thinks they know balance when they see it then tell me if this is balanced?" when I was referring to the three multis. Artillery strike is the strongest, Multi is the second strongest, Plasma rain even with technician on is the weakest against the same level players so why does the strongest start at 22 support, the second strongest start at 0 dex, and the weakest start at 28 tech?

You may think they make the Blood Mage over powered but they won't and it is time for one of the mage classes to be on top for awhile and if you are a true mage then you would want more for one of the mage classes. People think the mage class is a strength class it is not. I put strength at 129 total shot a level 34 strength tact merc that had low dex and low support shot him with the stun cannon a physical gun and got 12 deflection. Then my partner smoked him and you think I would get huge damage with Berzerker but I only got 7 7 29. so I put fireball at max, bounty partner went first, at max is 75 damage his defense down to 8-12 and I only got 36 damage so smoke will do nothing for the Blood mage for the ones that thinks giving Blood Mage will bring balance.

For a Blood Mage to last in battle especially 2vs2 and for technician and Reflex boost to be effective, you have to forget about all offensive skills and have good tech good dex with at least 82 strength, they have to be at max so how balanced is that for a class that is suppose to be aggressive not defensive.
Epic  Post #: 115
11/30/2011 21:36:55   
Laces
Member

Guys, there's no point arguing with Hun Kingq. His ideas haven't been implemented so far, and they're not going to get implemented. The rest of us can see his flaws. He can't.

And you know why it starts at 28 tech, it's because tech is the easiest to spam and attain a higher resistance. For example:

At 111 Tech (This is from stat progressions), Your Resistance is at 34-41.

At 111 Dex, Your Defense is 31-38.

Your Resistance would be significantly higher then if you had the same amount of points invested in Dex. They start it at 28 Tech because they would not rather have a tank with high resistance, a pretty powerful multi (if starting at 0 tech), and a good amount of bot damage.

Of course they could lower it down to around 22 Tech but you see my point.



AQW Epic  Post #: 116
11/30/2011 23:41:06   
Giras Wolfe
Member

Really? You put a support requirement on Tactical Merc's smokescreen and it affects our class too? That idea is so retarded that it gets monthly checks from the government. Learn how to code for god's sake or come out and explain why you think smokescreen bounty hunters are op. Its an entirely different issue then smokescreen mercs. Forget massacre, but you won't even let us have a good ol' all out offensive build at all?

< Message edited by Giras Wolfe -- 11/30/2011 23:42:54 >
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 117
12/1/2011 17:08:38   
Stabilis
Member

This thread:

-Is very crowded

-Doesn't get much attention
AQ Epic  Post #: 118
12/1/2011 20:42:16   
Smackie El Frog
Member

Please do not remove technician. But if it does have to be removed from the tactical mercenary skill tree, please do not add blood shield. Let us have a bit of bounty hunter edge and have the skill energy shield instead. Mostly do to the fact that blood shield impairs you as a 5 focus build because the build limits you to having around 95 health at the current cap. When you get malfunctioned by your opponent and you do not have assault bot equipped your build is crippled without technician. And if your build relies on tech which is pretty much all the class has in terms of what they have to choose from. IE smoke screen, the great final skill surgical strike and most importantly your main attack the bot. If only had a tech/resistance based skill for back up and you have to use it your first turn you are burned of hp and your main attacks are still crippled. Please leave technician.

_____________________________
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 119
12/1/2011 20:49:19   
Stabilis
Member

^ If you're using SM and SS you shouldn't need something to make it OP, find other ways?

We have bounty hunters who have barely any tech and max SM doing llittle impact but they don't complain (outright).
AQ Epic  Post #: 120
12/1/2011 21:15:21   
Smackie El Frog
Member

I'm not saying i'm using both skills at the same time. SS is very energy heavy and for 5 focus build I am usually not adding any skill points to energy. But this is TACTICAL mercenary I am talking about not Bounty hunter. Do not compare the two classes because blood lust paired with the massacre skill used correctly is devastating and even more powerful if smoke screen is in effect. And that is what all strength bounty hunters use nowadays.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 121
12/1/2011 22:01:37   
110Stalker
Member

Any of you guys notice that the game was balanced almost perfectly during early to mid beta.
EVERY build had a counter no matter what it was. The one and only problem I had with beta fase was the power of the super skill of each class. Due to the low power of supercharge, it never was worth having. Massacre was very useful at that time. The merc skill (I can't remember the name I think it's artillery strike) was a in between the two.
I was a tech mage back then. I noticed that when one class began to overthrow another, it was due strategy. Using our brains, not (censored) on the forums for the programmers to weaken the top class.
I remember when mercs were on top, then bounty hunters, then mages. And the cycle would restart.

These days.... I would say approximately 80% of build combinations have been lost due to "balance updates".

Let me give you guys an idea that haven't been with ED long enough to know just how much this holds true.
Today, a bloodmage is actually a little weaker than tech mages used to be. The same can be said about classes other than the tactical mercenary.

Currently, the only class that is significantly stronger than any of the 3 early on is the tactical mercenary.

Which is not what I am unhappy about.
What I do not like is the fact that the other classes have been weakened so much that it's nearly impossible to counter them.


My next statement (for the record I am not a free player) but, I have noticed that how extreme stat modifications have become for varium users.
Which I love beyond a doubt; the problem is, free players are not even the slightest match.

I can take out two level 30 non varium mercenaries in a juggernaut battle as a blood mage.
I get more challenge from a pair of level 26 bounty hunters where ONLY ONE has varium.
I'm not saying weaken anything. I'm saying it would be of assistance for them if they had some weapons with decent stat modifications.
I put more money in this game than I will willingly acknowledge. I have to keep paying to stand a chance, to get weapons 4 times better at the same level as their older yet still varium counterparts.


Finally I want to address one other thing. As everyone gets more powerful attacks; hit points remain the same so as to not lose defenses.
I see why agility was put into play BUT, it has outlived it's usefulness. Higher hit points would help us take out those strength tactical mercs. My Field Medic heals 44 points at level 5. A strength tactical merc can almost hit that on my defenses in one turn.

What I am getting at is, ED was farther ahead in the past than it is now.
Everyone notice it wasn't until the end of beta that the idea surfaced to lower level players that healing should not be there at all.
It's because they think that just because their build doesn't have it means no one should. Which are the same people who did nothing but (censored) on the forums to get everything weakened.
Coincidence? I think NOT.

< Message edited by 110Stalker -- 12/1/2011 22:09:45 >
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 122
12/2/2011 1:35:40   
kittycat
Member

Here is the issue and causes

Tactical Mercenaries did Support Builds, which made Heal above 40+, and did good aux and multi damage. They had the ability to regain EP constantly, until when it heals 17, they can heal up to 40+ HP which makes them OP. Then, the staff weaken'd Field Medic and made the values only improvable through leveling. Then here comes Robot builds, dealing good robot damage, good smoke, and good boost. Strength TLMs are existant with the ability to gain HP manually and EP automatically when hit. That makes the classes divert from the OP, but whatever the Devs do, they end up in a dead end. Reroute does go along with Tactical Mercenary, but the thing it is getting abused. Since they have 2 Main Passives, while others have 1 side and 1 main/side, they need to deviate. Hybrid Armor makes them less worried about Defense unless if specializing in defense, and they can interchange. Reroute should be either replaced with Static Charge and Cyber Hunters take reroute. It should equal things out.

Regarding the ability to drain+gain EP, here are a few viable solutions:
1)Blood Mages can interchange Blood Lust into Energy Lust. It functions like Hybrid Armor, except you heal EP/HP for a % of damage you do to your opponent. You can change it during battle.
2)Merge Assimilation with Fireball. Fire Assimilation can deal good damage, and steal one's EP and puts 100% of the "stolen" energy to your pool.


< Message edited by kittycat -- 12/2/2011 1:44:55 >
AQ MQ  Post #: 123
12/2/2011 3:06:36   
Goony
Constructive!
The problem with ignoing balance and not fixing the issue at the core, as Xendran tried to show them a long time ago, is that the player base is not as dumb as we are treated. These balance threads get issue after issue put into them day after day. I can guarantee that the developers sometimes wish it would go away. They have thrown away so much money by not addressing the core function of balance a very long time ago and tried to push forward with developing content. Mistake, you just turn over the punters as they become aware of the issues, give up as they see no future and go and spend their cash somewhere else. The power of goodwill is such a dynamic engine to growth and you are throwing that away. A lot of people invested in good faith and have been incredibly patient. I am now seeing that wane and that is pretty sad really.

If this game had managed to keep just 1% of the players that have made accounts they would need to have 10 servers by now. Instead in the 2 years I have played the server numbers have just managed to stay about the same.

Isn't it about time the developers took a good look at the biggest restrictor for future growth and made some huge modifications to the battle engine. Do it now, before the game really dies and you lose all the respect from your community.

I am not trying to be malicious here and am just stating the facts. If nothing else my support for the game has exceeded the vast majority. Please, for the sake of your game review the balance changes submitted by Xendran because this softly, softly approach is killing our game!

< Message edited by Goony -- 12/2/2011 3:16:15 >
Epic  Post #: 124
12/2/2011 13:39:49   
110Stalker
Member

quote:

Tactical Mercenaries did Support Builds, which made Heal above 40+, and did good aux and multi damage. They had the ability to regain EP constantly, until when it heals 17, they can heal up to 40+ HP which makes them OP. Then, the staff weaken'd Field Medic and made the values only improvable through leveling. Then here comes Robot builds, dealing good robot damage, good smoke, and good boost. Strength TLMs are existant with the ability to gain HP manually and EP automatically when hit. That makes the classes divert from the OP, but whatever the Devs do, they end up in a dead end. Reroute does go along with Tactical Mercenary, but the thing it is getting abused. Since they have 2 Main Passives, while others have 1 side and 1 main/side, they need to deviate. Hybrid Armor makes them less worried about Defense unless if specializing in defense, and they can interchange. Reroute should be either replaced with Static Charge and Cyber Hunters take reroute. It should equal things out.


There is a simple solution that I can see here.

Take reroute away from tac mercs, then increase the power of the heal back to it's original glory.

The mercs cannot whine about being under powered because they got a strong heal to back.
But due to the lack of reroute, then odds are they only heal once to conserve mana.
If they use their mana only to heal, then they have less mana to use for attacks.
Badabing badaboom Houston we have balance.

I'm not even going to get into how simple it is to get around a robot build.

Now on the other hand, Taking hybrid armor away might actually require str mercs to try with their builds.
I still say that reroute is the biggest issue and, fix the heals to even it out.
PLUS: those strong heals are what would help EVERYONE ELSE stay alive.
Bada bing bada boom, we now have a counter for those str/constant healing builds.


quote:

Regarding the ability to drain+gain EP, here are a few viable solutions:
1)Blood Mages can interchange Blood Lust into Energy Lust. It functions like Hybrid Armor, except you heal EP/HP for a % of damage you do to your opponent. You can change it during battle.
2)Merge Assimilation with Fireball. Fire Assimilation can deal good damage, and steal one's EP and puts 100% of the "stolen" energy to your pool.


Please, if that would happen, then less than a week later.
We will have everyone (censored) on the forums that blood mages are Over powered.
Then blood mage becomes weaker than every other class.
The blood mage is very powerful if used correctly. Sadly it seems that 90% of them don't know how.

90% of blood magees use that same build. Which has very little power if you put it side by side with a good build.
Instead of asking for a boost why not explore different builds first.

So what does everyone do these days??? They switch to tac merc.


quote:

that the player base is not as dumb as we are treated


When 80% of all the players use the same build.
It gives the bystander the impression that the player base IS very dumb.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 125
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