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RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread

 
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2/18/2012 18:54:21   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


@playarn Just about if you have the right gear for the right builds. I can't reliably beat either of those two yet but I still have one more level to go plus my most recent piece of gear is the mutating weapon from Halloween. I'm still using Founder Armor, Frostbolt Blaster and a dragon aux from Dragon Con.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 451
2/18/2012 18:55:37   
Wootz
Member

The key to win a BM that got the first turn is EMP/Atom Smasher/Assimilation.
AQW Epic  Post #: 452
2/18/2012 19:00:13   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


@wootz Yes because balancing a game by assuming all players have access to and will use the same skill is not going to be a good idea at all. Everyone complains about everyone having the same build so why do we suggest countering OPd builds by forcing the weaker players into the same build using the same skills?
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 453
2/18/2012 19:03:16   
Wootz
Member

There isn't a single Cyber Hunter nor any other, with an equal build, maybe in skills, but not in the stats.
AQW Epic  Post #: 454
2/18/2012 22:55:01   
drinde
Member

IDEA:

Multi-Shot: Improves with Support

Kills CH Dexterity Abuse
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 455
2/18/2012 23:21:31   
AQWPlayer
Member

@drinde
That would kill BH dex builds. (just a cheap excuse cuz I don't want my CH to be unable to abuse dex...)
AQW  Post #: 456
2/18/2012 23:31:09   
drinde
Member

Also:

New Multi for Mercs?

Physical, Improves with Dexterity.

@AQWP
Meh, what BH uses Dexterity nowadays?
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 457
2/18/2012 23:33:23   
AQWPlayer
Member

@drinde
Last time I checked, Pranz was a dex BH...:3
AQW  Post #: 458
2/19/2012 1:55:02   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


@drinde Why on earth would Multi Shot improving with support(which Malf improves with as well) make things better? It would lower dex abusing but make Multi Shot hit way harder than it did before.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 459
2/19/2012 2:03:33   
drinde
Member

Oh, good point.

Urm... uh.... Multi-Shot on Cyber Hunters improving on Tech, and Support on BHs?

/shrug

There should be a way for offensive Support builds on BHs, in my opinion.
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 460
2/19/2012 2:08:20   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


You can't change the skill for just one class since it's only one skill in the database. To change one without affecting other classes with it would require making a new skill entirely. Support is pretty much the best defensive way for a BH to play and that's how I like it. If they want to be offensive they can use strength or dex spam.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 461
2/19/2012 2:10:31   
drinde
Member

^
Actually, it may be possible to be done since CHs have a lower REQ on Venom Strike compared to BHs.
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 462
2/19/2012 2:15:25   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

You can't change the skill for just one class since it's only one skill in the database.

venom strike on CH has less tech requirement than the one on BH.
AQW Epic  Post #: 463
2/19/2012 2:20:33   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


@gold and drinde You may be able to change requirements on skills for different classes but I doubt you can change what it does, how much it does, and what it improves with. If you could, then they could've just changed Hybrid Armor on TLMs instead of creating a whole new entire skill for it or changed the improves with for CH's Multishot by now.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 464
2/19/2012 2:38:50   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

You may be able to change requirements on skills for different classes but I doubt you can change what it does, how much it does, and what it improves with. If you could, then they could've just changed Hybrid Armor on TLMs instead of creating a whole new entire skill for it or changed the improves with for CH's Multishot by now.

i just think they haven't tried changing its effects on diff class.
it would help balance out a skill in 1 class while not affecting the other. (such as field medic, which could scale differently and improve with different stats on different classes. this would add more diversity)
AQW Epic  Post #: 465
2/19/2012 2:53:49   
Ashari
Inconceivable!


ND is correct about the skills. Changing the improvement or requirement stat or the damage would affect both BH and CH. The requirements of Venom Strike are different since tier plays a part in skill stat requirements. They have different tiers, so they can have different stat requirements.

Making new multi skill isn't out of the question, but it does require more time to set up than just adjusting an existing skill. That may just open up abusive CH Support builds with the combination of a strong Malfunction and Multi (not to mention Defense Matrix) though.

< Message edited by Ashari -- 2/19/2012 2:54:26 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 466
2/19/2012 2:54:30   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


If there is a way to change a skill only for one class then it would be easier to just make different skills that do the same thing but have different improvement rates. Take Field Medic for example, the only class that really ever abused it was Tech Mages. If Titan could've just changed it so only Mages heal less then it would've been done a long time ago. Many were against a Field Medic nerf because they all were aware that it would affect every class the same.

Edit @shari If you made it physical it would somewhat reduce the effectiveness of support CHs since Malf wouldn't help the damage any. Defense Matrix could be a problem in the future when offensive CHs die down in power some.

< Message edited by The ND Mallet Guy -- 2/19/2012 2:57:10 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 467
2/19/2012 4:29:01   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

If there is a way to change a skill only for one class then it would be easier to just make different skills that do the same thing but have different improvement rates. Take Field Medic for example, the only class that really ever abused it was Tech Mages. If Titan could've just changed it so only Mages heal less then it would've been done a long time ago. Many were against a Field Medic nerf because they all were aware that it would affect every class the same.

well then being able to do these changes and have difference in skills maybe should get be looked at.
perhaps it can be Hudelf's next assignment.

and as for tech mages being only ones that abused it, thats because they were the only ones to desperately need it.
a field medic buff (only to mage) would restore mages support and focus build.
perhaps not like it was before, but with a different scale, so that 130+ support isn't healing 50s at lvl 1.

this would also help balance out the passives alot.
like the early delta tlm, with reroute.
if this was in place, a % nerf on TLM's reroute would have helped from the early start, or a nerf on hybrid while not affecting the original merc.

well point im trying to make is, there would be alot more options for balance if they could code every skill as an individual skill. so it would not matter if tlms reroute or hybrid got nerf, because it wouldn't affect the other classes due to it having individual skills.

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 2/19/2012 4:44:17 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 468
2/19/2012 8:42:05   
Oba
Member

All of the multi's will soon change though. Well, atleast Multi-Shot and Artillery Strike. Multi-shot is gonna be phys and Artillery will be energy. Dont know when this is going to be implented.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 469
2/19/2012 8:52:28   
Darkeroid
Member

quote:

Meh, what BH uses Dexterity nowadays?


@Drinde:I do :P
Epic  Post #: 470
2/19/2012 12:04:16   
PivotalDisorder
Member

I will be "contributing" my new ideas on balance when the topic is remade :) no point posting on page 20 then the topic sinks without a trace :)

but before I do, here is a question for everyone........

Q: if a passive armor like Mineral or Plasma would make BM, TM or BH overpowered, then why is it ok for CHs and TLMs to have them?
Post #: 471
2/19/2012 12:19:31   
Stabilis
Member

Rabblefroth's duties could include finding out the most optimal way to edit skills without affecting other classes.

You know, if he has the time.
AQ Epic  Post #: 472
2/19/2012 12:50:28   
Ranloth
Banned


@psibertus

Passive Armors improve the class by giving you defence in a skill that is somewhat equivalent to defensive skills but passive.

Main problem with CH is Static Charge which combined with Plasma and SA (and Massacre) makes too big defensive combo, infinite loop Massacre and Tank build. If we're to nerf Static and take away perhaps SA, the loop will be gone, Plasma will be balanced because they cannot Tank as much anymore nor have infinite Energy.
TLMs are balanced now even with Mineral Armor. Thanks to exchange of Technican with Blood Shield - they cannot empower their Smoke even more, improve the Bot, and get Resistance on top of it. Also loss of Maul took away their cheap skill that ignored defence which was sole reason for it; no, it wasn't used for stunning but mainly the defence ignoring, and replaced with Grenade which is quite good way to bring TLMs down.

Of course TLMs can get Energy back and have Smoke which is same as TMs but they get Mineral Armor which is an advantage. The difference is now, they have HP skill that can raise their Res for 5 turns (costs HP, not Energy). While TMs have Matrix which can really give a lot of defense with decent Support (I mave somewhat high Support TM, and I get at Lvl 3, +34 Def) and Technican which improves our Bots and 2 caster skills. While Malf cannot be improved by any skill but Support stat.
What might make TLMs a bit stronger than other classes - stronger, not OP'ed anymore - is synergy of the skills. Getting Reroute, Mineral, Smoke and Frenzy on first 2 rows easily and Frenzy just below gives them chance to make very easy build with no strategy or whatsoever.

Adding further Passive Armors to all classes would really destroy it all. Some classes are good with them but having all classes with Armor is destroying the balance and brings strategy even lower. TMs would go for Plasma, P Armor, Malf, Heal, Reroute and DA - best build to use and Tank + deal good damage. Hell.. no! BHs with Mineral, E Armor, BL, Smoke and Massacre would be even worse - they are balanced now, maybe small buff would be needed but adding that big thing is too much.
And lastly BMs with either Armors. They are glass cannons and deal high damage (Firebolt, BL, Berzerker, Plasma Cannon) and have hard time defending without Energy return skill nor decent skills to defend. That's why they are strong but if you counter them (Assimilation, EMP, high defences, etc) - they are a lot easier to defeat. Support build is only way for BMs to go defensive but it'll be hard with Str-abusing builds to survive the fights - thus not worth it.

If they add Passive Armors to all classes, that means re-balancing whole game from the scratch. Totally new ways to counter them, new ways to balance the skills, it'd take too much work to re-balance everything and it's from scratch - not from what we have now.
BHs and TMs are balanced for now but BHs could use small buff. Mercs are UP'ed and they will have a buff due sometime soon. BMs could use small buff, but Intimidate change will probably fix it (Mercs and BMs have it so killing two birds with one stone). CHs are OP'ed and it's a fact and change should be seen most likely with Static Charge, taking away SA for different skills (Assimilation) would bring them down significantly whilst being able to keep Plasma Armor (TLMs don't have SA but Plasma so why CHs should have both). And lastly TLMs are a bit too strong, reason is simply the synergy with the skills, nothing more.
AQ Epic  Post #: 473
2/19/2012 13:11:46   
PivotalDisorder
Member

I got nothing to say, sorry man.

just seems like you shot idea down for no reason other than laziness. if the ED devs aren't brave enough to make big changes in the name of balance
then why bother making any changes at all? just let the game rot and stagnate. better for ED to die than go on with this repetitive "make a class OP"
for 6 months merry-go-round that it currently is. the games no1 priority is balance, but clearly profits massively outweigh balance and that is why we
will never have it. Heal loop mages, support mercs, str bhs, str mercs, TLMs in general, and now CHs. the terrible run continues.

heads in bottoms

^^

< Message edited by psibertus -- 2/19/2012 13:13:31 >
Post #: 474
2/19/2012 13:24:54   
Ranloth
Banned


Wanna make a point:

I'm not a Staff member, decisions about balance aren't depending on me. Flaming also won't change much, surely just suggesting won't kill you like you did but you can't take criticism from others which is required even in life. What seems good to you might not be good to others; real-life fact.
AQ Epic  Post #: 475
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