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RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread

 
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1/26/2012 1:29:29   
Archlord Raistlin
Member
 

Here's one unexpected downside to all the CH/TLM hybrid armors (if you don't have it):

There seems to be even more cases of ppl exiting the battle lately, due to opponents
they can barely hit. Some try then leave after a round or two, and some don't even try.
While this mostly affects lower level players (who are often the newer ones), this should
at least be some indication that something is wrong... I'm pretty sure most lower levels
don't like being hit for 30 dmg, then turn around and smoke or malf for 3 because of the
huge defenses.

...and in 2v2, if your partner leaves against these tanks...game over.

You can't stop someone from turning off their computer in frustration, but at higher levels
it is just about impossible to avoid these tanks. Instead of encouraging lower levels to
keep progressing, it seems like balance changes end up as a punishment by the time you
reach level 28/29 and have to start facing these 33/34s.

Balance is all about choices and sacrifice...some classes just offer more sacrificing I guess.
Or...maybe... it's all about getting ppl to change into CH or TLM ...hmm.
Post #: 26
1/26/2012 3:31:34   
Wootz
Member

I ACCEPT THAT CHALLENGE! :D

Barney quote is epic for the situation! :D
AQW Epic  Post #: 27
1/26/2012 4:47:10   
drinde
Member

Static Charge: Change it to regain EP like Bloodlust, but up to 15% per attack?
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 28
1/26/2012 5:50:56   
Wootz
Member

Drinde, and anyone else who wants Static Charge to become passive.
I strongly disagree with it, why can't people just let a class have something unique to it.
I do agree that the skill needs to be changed a bit. Although not in that way.
AQW Epic  Post #: 29
1/26/2012 5:54:49   
drinde
Member

How about the idea of Plasma Armor and Mineral armor slowly dissolving and needing to be reactivated?

Turn 1: +12
Turn 2: +9
Turn 3: +6
Turn 4: +3
Turn 5: 0 (Reactivation)

If it was at any other LVs, it would remain Static until it reached to dissolving tier. As in a LV6 Static Charge:

Turn 1: +8
Turn 2: +8
Turn 3: +6
Turn 4: +3
Turn 5: 0 (Reactivation)

< Message edited by drinde -- 1/26/2012 5:57:32 >
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 30
1/26/2012 5:59:36   
Wootz
Member

Would be bad for low levels, lower levels of Plasma/Mineral Armors.
I'm pretty sure that would be some hardcore coding, aswell.
Although the idea is good, but then the requirment is too high for such thing.
AQW Epic  Post #: 31
1/26/2012 6:00:47   
drinde
Member

quote:

Would be bad for low levels, lower levels of Plasma/Mineral Armors


Why?
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 32
1/26/2012 6:03:58   
Wootz
Member

'Cause it'd downgrade it too much, making the skill useless, and the skill points spend a stupid choice.
AQW Epic  Post #: 33
1/26/2012 15:08:10   
endtime
Member

Support - Right now it's weak because it is unreliable and luck-based, after the update it will be even weaker since the one strong attack (the aux) can be easily deflected.
My suggestion: Spread a bunch of the luck stats in support to other stats, then make sidearms improve with support. Make support the "ranged"-weapon stat.

Perhaps (this is tentative and merely a possibly, the devs/mods can choose which goes where),
Deflection - Support (IMO this should stay with Support, it makes sense that becoming better with ranged weapons makes you fail less with using said type of weapons).
First Turn - Agility
Critical - Technology
Stun Odds - Strength
Rage - Strength

So let me refute possible concerns:
-Does strength becomes weaker? Not really because it can still strike every turn without a cooldown and utilize the large array of assisting skills (double strike, zerker, massacre, etc).
-Will malfunction/other unforeseen skills become too strong? Perhaps, but if this does happen, Malfunction or said skill(s) can merely scale with level like Field Medic.
-Not much else besides the strength concern. Support might still not be as good as strength due to the cooldowns, but it's an alternative for people who don't like blocks and prefer to use defense-based skills/strategy. In fact, this might make bots such as the Yeti become useful, since it can be used to counter support builds.

< Message edited by endtime -- 1/26/2012 16:02:52 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 34
1/26/2012 16:02:49   
Stabilis
Member

What the stat attributes are right now:

quote:

Strength: Increases base damage range of Primary, Sidearm, and enhances certain skills.
Dexterity: Increases physical defense, increases the chance to block, and enhances certain skills.
Technology: Increases energy resistance, robot damage and enhances certain skills.
Support: Increases base damage range of Auxiliaries, increases chance to go first, critical strike, deflect, and rage rate; reduces chance to be stunned and enhances certain skills.


My suggestions for stat attributes:

Strength: Increases base damage range of Primary, rage rate, and enhances certain skills.
-
Dexterity: Increases the chance to block and the accuracy of Primary (only 50% effective), chance to dodge (ranged weapons can completely miss) (only 50% effective), increases base damage range of Sidearm (50%), and enhances certain skills.
-
Technology: Increases robot damage, increases base damage range of Sidearm (50%), increases base damage range of Auxiliaries (50%) and enhances certain skills.
-
Support: Increases base damage range of Auxiliaries (50%), increases the effectiveness of personal buffs (defense matrix, reflex boost, energy shield, technician, etc.), enhances field medic, and enhances certain skills {and by certain I mean very few offensive skills}.
-
Defense: Increases physical defense.
-
Resistance: Increases energy resistance.
-
Luck/Chance: Increases chance to go first, critical strike, chance to connect for Primary-Sidearm-and-Auxiliaries, reduces chance to be stunned, and enhances certain {new} skills.

Strength: Goes well with the the Strike skill which is infinite, and can crush through tanks with the ability to amplify rage.
Dexterity: No longer counts for defense, which protects from half of all attacks, realistically, and comparative to AQ (if you didn't know is extremely balanced for stats), will make ranged attacks better, and also avoid incoming damage from weapons, but, as stated above, only 50% effective.
Technology: This becomes mostly an offensive stat, improving all weapons except for Primaries. Robots improve by this stat 100% like it does right now, but Sidearms and Auxiliaries only improve by 50%. DOES NOT AFFECT ACCURACY.
Support: The helper stat, improves Auxiliaries by 50%, also enhancing skills that boost the player. THIS INCLUDES IMPROVING FIELD MEDIC AGAIN BECAUSE SUPPORT IN THIS VERSION IS ALMOST BALANCED.
Defense: Improves physical defense independently from stats that affect other forms of defense (blocking, which dexterity does, for example).
Resistance: Improves energy resistance independently from stats that affect other forms of energy defense (which would have used to be technology).
Luck/Chance: Needed to be separated from basic combat stats. Support means third-party aid. NOT GAMBLING.


EDIT (this section is new):
Strength affects: Massacre, bludgeon, double strike, intimidate, berzerker, maul, frenzy.
Dexterity affects: No skills.
Technology affects: Smokescreen (50%), EMP grenade (50%), multi-shot (50%), stun grenade (50%), plasma bolt (?) (50%), overload (?) (50%), malfunction (50%), plasma rain (?) (50%), super charge (?) (50%), bunker buster (50%), surgical strike (50%).
Support affects: Field medic, energy shield, reflex boost, defense matrix, technician, field commander, artillery, reinforcements [increases your support or your ally's support during combat], oppose [strike and weaken an enemy by reducing their support in combat], surgical strike (50%).
Luck/Chance CAN affect: Any skill that uses a luck factor (such as cheap shot or maul) (50%).


About Focus (this section is newer):

Option A: Focus still improves the same way it does now. 4 stat points are given per each level up.

Option B: Focus improves when 5 to 7 stats (can include defense, resistance, and luck/chance) are balanced. Therefore, to make focus possible, 5 to 7 stat points are given per each level up. Agility is removed. Example: Level 1 Focus = 25 Strength, 25 Dexterity, 25 Technology, 25 Support, 25 Defense, 25 Resistance, 25 Luck/Chance... and so on.


< Message edited by greenrain13 -- 1/26/2012 17:46:06 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 35
1/26/2012 16:09:04   
endtime
Member

@greenrain The problem with making sidearms stronger with dexterity and technology is that those stats already increase the base damage of crucial aspects of the game. Being able to tank and do damage output is ridiculous--this is one of the main reasons 5 focus builds are excessively strong (they have high defenses and can deal high damage with the robot). That is why I am proposing to make support the exclusive stat for improving ranged damage (auxiliary and sidearm) and make luck chances spread out over various stats. Separating base offensive stats and base defensive stats is crucial.

< Message edited by endtime -- 1/26/2012 16:13:40 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 36
1/26/2012 16:20:47   
Stabilis
Member

^
quote:

@greenrain The problem with making sidearms stronger with dexterity and technology is that those stats already increase the base damage of crucial aspects of the game. Being able to tank and do damage output is ridiculous--this is one of the main reasons 5 focus builds are excessively strong (they have high defenses and can deal high damage with the robot). That is why I am proposing to make support the exclusive stat for improving ranged damage (auxiliary and sidearm) and make luck chances spread out over various stats. Separating base offensive stats and base defensive stats is crucial.


Oh, yes, dexterity and technology increase many offensive skills in the game. Please allow me to go and edit my post about that. I do not want dexterity to improve many offensive skills. Technology? I suppose it could still improve many offensive skills. Hehehe, technology as an offensive stat. Yes, support is definitely always an option to put Sidearms and Auxiliaries with. Especially if trying to even out the luck factors.

Tell you what, endtime, what we could do is work on the stats together and give each other feedback, giving the staff as many options as possible, what do you think?

< Message edited by greenrain13 -- 1/26/2012 16:21:30 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 37
1/26/2012 16:33:20   
endtime
Member

Sure. I like the 50% mechanisms that you have going on certain stats (it would be great and would add depth to develop skills/base stats that take more than one stat to improve), but I am wondering how that will be coded. It seems as if ED has a set system where a certain type of base number or skill improves only with one stat. I don't know if this system is by choice or if this system is in place because doing otherwise would take a massive overhaul of the code.

But the one thing I am steadfast on is improving sidearms with support and distributing the luck factors. If anything this should be the first step.

--
BTW I have to get going to my Calc 3 tutorial and then to work in a few minutes, so I might not reply for a while.

< Message edited by endtime -- 1/26/2012 16:35:46 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 38
1/26/2012 16:56:54   
Stabilis
Member

^ Oh, about the 50% on stats, you know how something like strength can improve base damage range by 1 for every 4 points? Well, at 50%, the base damage range will improve by 1 point for every 8 points.

EDIT:
quote:

BTW I have to get going to my Calc 3 tutorial and then to work in a few minutes, so I might not reply for a while.


Try to avoid stress by relaxing.

< Message edited by greenrain13 -- 1/26/2012 17:01:39 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 39
1/26/2012 19:13:56   
zion
Member

Wouldn't hybrid armor be a little better and more useful if it trained def then res armor? I think it could also use a buff of another point or two. Two +6 shields does not equal a +13 +12 shield!

--Noiz
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 40
1/26/2012 20:40:22   
Archlord Raistlin
Member
 

Ran into an interesting build today that screams (:/) BALANCE
...fortunately he was my partner. I can't recall the HP, but it was decent.

Strength 86 +61 (30-35 +35)
Defense 20-24 +9
Resistance 17-21 +12

Here are my level 34 bloodmage stats in comparison:

Strength 45 +22 (16-20 +33)
Defense 23-28 +9 +1
Resistance 29-35 +1

We can have practically the same defenses and he has 80 additional str points? Rly?
Yes, I have 40 more support than he did, but what difference does that make...minimal.
His primary does more dmg than my aux...by 11.

One more example of the "40 point" hybrid advantage that supposedly is not an advantage...
Post #: 41
1/27/2012 2:37:20   
Goony
Constructive!


When is the class imbalance going to be addressed? This is heal loop mages all over again.

What, out of all the balance discussions, is likely to be implemented?

Who on the staff is responsible for responding to this thread?

So many questions and still no effort to address them! So much for respect, it's not a one way street! You, the moderators, want respect. Well earn it and give some recognition to the people who care for this game... No response = no respect!

Why is the balance document not public and updated? Where is the moderation and direction of this topic? We are not allowed to ask for positions within the game team, yet I see few requests for help. It is obvious that the few who are in the team cannot cope with with some of the discussions and just go and hide when the pressure is put on them...

Meh!
Epic  Post #: 42
1/27/2012 3:18:00   
drinde
Member

It would help if developers occasionally commented on our suggestions...
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 43
1/27/2012 4:53:19   
Wootz
Member

Since TLM's and CH's now have an incredible tankiness rate.
I was thinking of the old Focus.
What do you guys think?
Should we get the old Focus?
Tier 5 focus = +5 damage
I think it might work since the tankiness of the classes is a problem currently.
AQW Epic  Post #: 44
1/27/2012 4:54:36   
goldslayer1
Member

@woots
that makes the tank 5 focus better.




also has anyone noticed that CH's poison and BH poison have different requirements?
and the devs said that it wasn't possible to change a skill for 1 class but not change it for the other when both have it.

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 1/27/2012 4:55:45 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 45
1/27/2012 5:05:48   
drinde
Member

quote:

also has anyone noticed that CH's poison and BH poison have different requirements?


Hmm. That IS very interesting. Very interesting indeed.

For the Focus idea, how about if you have LV4+ Focus, you can choose either have bonus damage or the Bot boost?
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 46
1/27/2012 5:11:33   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

Hmm. That IS very interesting. Very interesting indeed.

interesting indeed.
i suggested before about changing field medic back to the way it was (running with support)
only for tech mages. because support is one of their only builds

and because deflects will now work with technology (making the tech mage class weaker)
this should be a considerable option.

it would require some testing to see how well field medic fares against the other classes.

but with current balance, support tech mage has little chance against the other classes.

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 1/27/2012 5:19:56 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 47
1/27/2012 5:21:36   
Wootz
Member

Also, it would make the other build have a better impact at the tankers.

And, yes, I did notice the requirment and I did post that a few times here.
AQW Epic  Post #: 48
1/27/2012 5:33:17   
drinde
Member

To stop Tanking, why not just increase the minimum damage possible?
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 49
1/27/2012 5:34:35   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

To stop Tanking, why not just increase the minimum damage possible?

to 10 minimum damage maybe?
AQW Epic  Post #: 50
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