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RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread

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2/20/2012 12:58:25   
Stabilis
Member

So does 12 suit your personality?
AQ Epic  Post #: 526
2/20/2012 13:02:19   
Remorse
Member

I Agree with depresed viod.

It may seem something like a new skill could whack out balance BUT, it's only because there havnt been any new pure defensive skills.


But Im also thinking that perhaps something more on the major scale.
Rather then new skillls how about a new feature called TALENTS.
Where you get 1 talent every 5 or 10 levels.

Talents would be little multi class abailties which can only have 1-3 talent points in each one with little effects which may help to create countes.

For example.
Rage shrink (3): each time you use an attack which does not give rage your opponent gains 30% less rage on the next atatck (lvl 1) ,45% (lvl2) , 60% (lvl3)

Rage Enahnce:(3): each time you are blocked your rage is increased by 15% on the next attack (lvl1) 25% (lvl 2) 35% (lvl3)

Crit resitance:(1): crits are 20% weaker and give the opponent no extra rage.

Stun resitance(1): Being stunned is 5% less likely and the oppoent gains no extra rage on the next attack.











< Message edited by Remorse -- 2/20/2012 13:04:00 >
Epic  Post #: 527
2/20/2012 18:07:41   
ultrafried
Member
 

 Some basic math I did to show how varried shadow arts can be in power.

First off shadow arts gives only one thing, % block, which only matters if the damage your taking is blockable so already you can see its most effective against most str builds but becomes less and less effective when faced with other builds that don't rely on blockable damage.
The skill is also quite variable because it becomes exponentially better the more dex you have.

Example 1: Let’s say you have a little bit less same dex as your oppenent and therefore get a 4% natural block chance.
Lvl 10 shadow are would give you a 14% block chace over 3x as much but this is actually when shadow arts is the most useless.
Let’s say u also have 95 health now let’s also throw in 2 hp boosters and a 39(lvl 3 heal) so 184 effective health. Now let’s say 50% of the damage done to you is blockable, so let’s say 92 "blockable" health. With a 4%(no points in shadow arts) block chance you will take about 96% of the blockable damage bringing your effective blockable health from about 92 to 96 so block in this case is giving you 4 health. With a 14%(10% from shadow arts) block chance u take about 86% of the blockable damage which brings your blockable health from 92 to about 107 so 15 health. So for 10 points in shadow arts your effective health has increased by 11, less than 2 attacks worth of hybrid armour defence or about 48 damage worth of lifesteal from bloodlust.

Example 2: If you keep everything from Example 1 the same except you bring your natural block chance to the max (40%)
Without shadow arts your block is 40% meaning u take about 60% damage increasing your effective hp from 92 to about 153 so an increase of 61. With lvl 10 shadow arts your block should be 50%(not sure on this but I believe SA can bring you over the cap) that's an increase from 92 to 184, 92 health. So in this case you gain about 31 health from shadow arts or a little more than 5 attacks worth of hybrid armor or 135 damage worth of lifesteal from blood lust.

On a side not the skill also helps against blockable skills that effect energy like static charge, Atom smasher and Assimilate which can be game changing.

I know that these are hardly perfect calculations of how shadow arts will preform as there are alot of variables and block by its nature is random. So what's my point you ask? well just that SA is far too unpredictable and takes a largy amount of dex advantage before it becomes comparable to the other 2 defensive passives in the game and even then I'd say it barely holds its own and only if your opponent relies on a decent amount of blockable damage.

My recommendation is to first remove this from cyber hunters because they don't need 3 passives... and replace it with something useless like stun grenade. As for BH I think you might try to change the skill into a straight up 15% damage reduction and would scale something like
1 3%
2 5%
3 7%
4 9%
5 10%
6 11%
7 12%
8 13%
9 14%
10 15%

this would work out to be about a 17.5% effective health boost at max lvl so a 125 hp BH would get about a 22 effective health boost.

< Message edited by ultrafried -- 2/21/2012 19:50:32 >
DF  Post #: 528
2/20/2012 21:32:52   
Stabilis
Member

Edit # 1:

Minimum damage becomes 1. Why? If one player is really weak offensively and one player is really strong defensively, why should the first player be dealing more than a scratch? (1 + n [n>1])

Edit # 2:

Rage ignores for the attack it is used with any of the target's passive skills. EDIT: And 100% of the player's armour.

EDIT: ADDED A SUGGESTION TO FIX CH

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 2/20/2012 22:07:26 >

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AQ Epic  Post #: 529
2/21/2012 4:16:08   
drinde
Member

Passive Reboot A:

Make Passive armors work on the idea on % of base defense.

Base does not include armor bonus.

Up to 30% at max, with a cap of +10 to stop overkill.

I.E, I have a base of 20 Resistance, I get +6 Resistance.

Passive Reboot B:

Throw them out. Defense Matrix for Mercenaries, Reflex Boost for Tactical Mercenaries, Technician for Cyber Hunters.
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 530
2/21/2012 6:07:47   
Ranloth
Banned


 I posted idea about Armors on previous page if anyone bothered to look back and Mercs should keep Hybrid as they are still UP'ed with it and it's not making them OP'ed because they can't regain EP nor can lower enemy's stats but Str which is not used by all players as much.
AQ Epic  Post #: 531
2/21/2012 16:09:29   
ultrafried
Member
 

 @Trans I think your idea to fix dex abuse is more complicated than it needs to be. I think simply capping the amount of block dex can give to 25% instead of 40% will make it harder to abuse dex without having to rewrite/add a lot of code. If the dex stat is still seen as too op even with 25% block being the cap then increasing the amount needed to get 1% block from 2 dex to 3 or 4 would be my next step.
As for fixing CH/TLM I think the problem stems around the fact that having both an armour skill and an energy skill is basically asking people to come up with builds that heal loop all day. I think to properly balance these classes you have to remove one or the other. TLM should lose reroute I've always thought the skill didn’t make sense for a big clubbing tank in the first place I'd replace it with RB/DM as currently TLMs don't have any way of defending against physical damage if they find that mineral isn't enough though if having both proves to be too op you could simply give TLM a nuke skill like bunker buster. Cyber hunters don't need Plasma armour it's the whole reason that there so OP right now and an armour skill just doesn't seem to fit in my mind with a swift stealthy hunter giving them back technician would do just fine. These are both big nerfs to the classes so reverting one or two of the more recent nerfs might be necessary.
As far as bots go I like your idea of only allowing their effects to used once per fight not a huge nerf but certainly a noticeable one.
Support needs a buff, especially since deflect got changed over to tech. I think if they removed the first strike thing on support and either gave it gun damage or heal scaling that would fix the problem. If it proved too much of a buff they could simply shift half the gun scaling over to str or reduce the heal scaling.
DF  Post #: 532
2/21/2012 16:22:49   
Ranloth
Banned


 If you've seen how Plasma/Mineral Armor works, it's pretty much similar to that as I seen the formula for it when it was released. Working out the base of it was matter of doing calculation backwards. And how so is it complicated? If we're talking code-based, then it's matter of taking away 2 numbers and applying right penality. Surely it's quite a tricky one as it changes with amount of DEX but if you've seen more skills that are used in classes, it's pretty much similar formula. Also as far as I know, every release requires changes to some of the old code or deleting previous one & rewriting so you know. And it can be worked over longer term, major changes aren't done in a week or two! ^.^
But if it can be coded, maybe not easily but not hard either, would it be still good idea? We're stopping Dex abusing which is seen mainly in CHs and possibly BHs (which is poor though) as it enhances their Multi, combined with BL and possibly 2v2, it's quite a strong combo at high Dex and I'm fine with it but when it gets to abusive point - you know you're screwed. :P

And Support will get a buff after losing Deflection, but it's unknown what kind of boost so we can only wait for now. But good thing is that boost is confirmed. :D

Either way, thanks for some feedback on it. It's just a suggestion and it's always welcome to hear some opinions on it.
AQ Epic  Post #: 533
2/21/2012 17:49:26   
ultrafried
Member
 

 Well I can't speak for the devs as I've never seen any of their code nor am I anything more than a novice coder myself. That said I don't think it would be that hard to implement your suggestion just that It would just be even simpler to change the max block % obtainable by dex and I think it would ultimately achieve the same goal. Also I think if they made this change they would probably want to make changes to deflect crit and maybe even stun just to keep the consistency on how those all work. I actually misread it too thinking that you were also proposing that they add a miss/hit system also affected by dex but I see that I was wrong about that. Another down side I can see is it would be harder for players to understand. The current 2 dex advantage(or 3 or 4 if they decide to nerf it) is 1% block is pretty simple but i suppose as long as it's balanced that really doesn't matter too much. You do make a good point though you can't expect good changes to be quick and certainly major ones require going through old code, using what you can and rewriting the rest.

< Message edited by ultrafried -- 2/21/2012 17:54:55 >
DF  Post #: 534
2/21/2012 18:03:41   
Ranloth
Banned


 Yeah I suppose downside would be the actual calculations of how much chance you have to hit. Currently it's easy but when you fight, do you actually look onto DEX, take it away/add and find out your chances or look at the build, stats, and think of the strategy? :P
I seen in past threads of this topic that players used actual numbers to prove their point so it'd be most likely for those math-junkies who are really interested into numbers (if you see AQ formulae for balancing items, you will see why xD).
Probably only reason why it's quite a complicated calculation is decaying blocking to prevent the stat abuse. Of course you can change it to much simpler numbers or round it to the nearest 2 d.p. which makes it a lot easier and usually makes very little difference. And you also have it easier to work it out, maybe not in-game as you'd need exact values for the difference penality but main point was to shoot down abusers by giving penality but giving them still advantage of fixed blocking which balances it out; having high Dex and suffering more because of it doesn't make much sense, does it? :P
AQ Epic  Post #: 535
2/21/2012 21:25:55   
Wraith
Member
 

 Lolz.

There will never be balance in ED.

If you buff everything to a certain standard...then add drawbacks to having a damage dealer (such as, deal 50 dmg but have a say, 5 dmg dot on yourself).

< Message edited by Wraith -- 2/21/2012 21:26:04 >

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AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 536
2/22/2012 0:24:50   
AQWPlayer
Member

quote:

(such as, deal 50 dmg but have a say, 5 dmg DoT on yourself).

That would be better off as a skill lol.
AQW  Post #: 537
2/22/2012 2:49:15   
Algorithm
Member

Yes all of your suggestions are being read daily by the balance team O_o did I miss something?
[awaiting approval] lol .
Post #: 538
2/22/2012 17:40:18   
Oba
Member

I've played as BM for a few more days and now I have come to the conclusion that this is pure bullsheat. The blocks is unbelievable.... I aint doing battles again before I see a balance update -_-
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 539
2/22/2012 19:02:37   
Stabilis
Member

Try a STR build with fireball, a fast kill counter.
AQ Epic  Post #: 540
2/22/2012 19:15:41   
Elf Priest JZaanu
Constructive!


 Though I have written about it prior. I feel strongly that both Azrael Borg and both versions of Assault bots need some type of reduction, sacrifice or points invested to use those passive skills. The game feels, as if, it is now being flooded with these bots every where. With them so prevalent, what is the reason of having any points and builds based around Malfunction, Smoke, Intimidation, Technician, Reflex Boost, and Field Commander? The game will shift to more bot placement builds with players who have most enhancements stacked will be the most successful over passive balanced builds.
AQW Epic  Post #: 541
2/23/2012 1:46:00   
Remorse
Member

^ I agree.

But reductions are never the key nor have they ever occomplished anything in balance (requirments =Fail, stat diminishing=fail)

What they need to do is make counters for things and that particular problem can have a counter created easy.

Like I have said a million times a COUNTER bot which automatically stops your opponents robot special , BAM Problem solved.

HOW? people who like to use sheilds and debuffs can use this bot without fear of sheilds being reduced or you debuffed being reduced.

It will lead to builds such as abusive STR builds to think about what they could do into coming into battle with these bots, so it will make them ACTULLY think to win.

AND it recreated the variety of builds which were contricted by these bots WITHOUT removing the new ones created WITH these bots.

Counters are they way to go.

Remorse Less.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 2/23/2012 1:49:07 >
Epic  Post #: 542
2/23/2012 1:57:25   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 @Remorse If the bot effects for Assault Bot and Azrael scaled by Focus level then they wouldn't be such a problem. Strength builds love to abuse those two bots the most so of course a Focus scale would help greatly. A reduction for a lack of Focus would be a great fix to the bot problem.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 543
2/23/2012 3:29:35   
drinde
Member

How about if it gets -10% for each agility level below 100? STR Builds rarely have 95- HP....
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 544
2/23/2012 3:33:18   
Remorse
Member

@ ND,

It seems good in theory but ultimately its just another restriction the STR builds will get pased.

Answer this has a support requiments EVER stopped them?
How about a tech requimnet?

NO!

Making bots scale with focus will ristrict variety, And the only thing that will change when it comes to STR builds is that they will be 5 focus STR abusers...


I wish something simple like that would work but it wont, And it never has.

Counters are the key.

I already have seen some effective 5 focus STR abusers, just as powerful just as anoying and with tank defences AND a robot for back up damage. The only diffrences is they have lesss HP but if suddely having less HP means you can use these bots agian nothing will change. Excpet battles will be with constant 95hp STR abusers proberrly more luck battles because of the low HP and more complaing about luck.


I dont see whats wrong with a counter bot,
The way I see it is STR builds WILL become counterable because sheilds will work agian, and skill like intimidate will work aswel.
But STR build can still use the BOTS on most of the population who dont or cant use a counter bot to fit their build which means basically it will be a counter for STR build without nerfing them.

WIN WIN.




< Message edited by Remorse -- 2/23/2012 3:39:03 >
Epic  Post #: 545
2/23/2012 3:34:36   
drinde
Member

Urm...

How about the BOTs Reduction % improves with Support?

No focus restriction, and it'll just be like a EP-Less Technician/Reflex/Whatever...
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 546
2/23/2012 3:42:37   
Remorse
Member

^ Hmm thats a good idea.

To simplifiy it if I may,

How about Robots special IMPROVE with support were as the normal attck is imprived with tech.


Obviolsy some build wouldnt bee included such as the yeti bot.

But all the other would work on this concept.


But even still it will just means STR abusers with reasonable support.

What people fail to realise is with enahcments STR builds can match and requiment tossed at them and Still be clasified a STR spammer.
Epic  Post #: 547
2/23/2012 3:51:28   
drinde
Member

Urm, ur....

Support Improves Special %

Technology Improves DMG

Dexterity Improves Hit %

STR:

% Reduction Specials are locked at 40% if you have more than 72 STR?
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 548
2/23/2012 7:01:40   
Oba
Member

And I love that idea about bot's special improves with support. Most STR abusers use these bots, and they often dont have that much support.

quote:

Try a STR build with fireball, a fast kill counter.


I do use that. But due my "low" defence's do I get killed if I not start in a battle as that.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 549
2/23/2012 7:31:54   
RageSoul
Member

quote:

Support Improves Special %

Technology Improves DMG

Dexterity Improves Hit %

STR:

% Reduction Specials are locked at 40% if you have more than 72 STR?

Support affecting % of Special - Good , so that people using weapons with Specials won't feel ripped off and get buffed .
The rest , just fine.
AQW Epic  Post #: 550
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