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RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread

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2/24/2012 13:56:02   
Cyberbeast10
Member

Hence, why you suggest a bot that weakens a heal?
AQW Epic  Post #: 576
2/24/2012 14:00:44   
Stabilis
Member

I don't have any original suggestions right now, but I still vouch for fixing CH by using player suggestions that have been broadcasted, the balance team is losing their touch.

Why do we still have plasma armour?
AQ Epic  Post #: 577
2/24/2012 14:01:24   
Remorse
Member

Yep,

It could be deffrent like perhaps.


A bot which adds an extra cool down to the opponents heal.


So it wont nerf the skill for everyone but it gives the abusers a counter.


@depressed same reason why TLMs still have mineral.

Persoanly I think Orignal Mercs should be the only class with a passive armour. That would certainyl reivie them and fix 90% of the balance issues which are traced back to TLMs or CHs

< Message edited by Remorse -- 2/24/2012 14:03:44 >
Epic  Post #: 578
2/24/2012 14:08:27   
Cyberbeast10
Member

But then, people who DON'T have the counter can't deal with such builds. Imagine if we had a bot that negated strike damage completely. We would beat STR builds easily, but what about those that can't get the bot? They will still be at their mercy.

A counter is nice and all, but I don't think they are always the best answers.
AQW Epic  Post #: 579
2/24/2012 14:12:24   
Ranloth
Banned


 Counter Bot, for heal only, would give it a low price and availability for everyone to at least have a bot. It's fun to have bot to counter a build, or perhaps just a fact you have a bot, it's nice really.

And I'm with Remorse on passive Armors. Synergy of debuff, Energy Regen, passive Armor is too big. Hence why original classes don't have it, only TM and Mercs have 2 of them. BHs have just debuff and "semi" Energy Regen via Matrix which isn't that reliable. But BHs have BL which is technically same as Reroute (alternative).
AQ Epic  Post #: 580
2/24/2012 14:19:07   
Remorse
Member

When a build is easily defeated people no longer go them,

By making counter for Indvidual prbelms in a sence you are either forcing them to use strategy or getting rid of them.

For example.

I have a particular weakness to STR BH.

Yet due to the fact they are hardly effective at killing the other STR builds I hardly ever see them anymore. Bonus for me.


Same sort of thing would happen here.
Some builds may be EXTREMELY good at killing another yet bad at killing anything else which means because its bad at killing other things it has no use beating whats its intended to.

If heall loppers become easy to counter, No one will go them and everyone will benefit.
Epic  Post #: 581
2/24/2012 14:25:40   
Cyberbeast10
Member

Fair point. Although if we depend on bots at some point then they'll make an anti-bot bot. Still I suppose its not a bad idea, and its simple. The simplest ideas are the best.
AQW Epic  Post #: 582
2/24/2012 14:32:27   
TurkishIncubus
Member

Im a person that didnt say Str TLM OP but now im saying Field Medic is OP with Tank energy gainers CH/TLM, mainly CH cause it can healloop more than twice.

Cause Str TLM got weakness , low resistance and weak against block but these builds are only weak against crit which is luck and even if my oponent do 2 crit i still beat them :P
Epic  Post #: 583
2/24/2012 14:36:52   
Cyberbeast10
Member

Well, maybe its just you have a good build? If Field Medic is overpowered when used by CH and TLM, then I repeat myself that the solution can be diminishing returns on Field Medic [See previous page] or the more simple solution: An anti-heal bot.

AQW Epic  Post #: 584
2/24/2012 14:46:58   
digimon slayer
Member

epicduel is not letting me chose chacter i click server but it wont load :(
Post #: 585
2/24/2012 18:41:00   
Cyberbeast10
Member

^Wrong thread.

Anyways, I've though of something that MIGHT end all of epicduel's luck factors and cause this game to be a bit more skill-oriented; a charge system. I think if we can remove the luck from the game, we can identify more OP builds more easily because then we won't have the "luck" factors to justify why a build isn't OP. I'm not elaborating all too much here, but this is the main idea:

Here's how it will work:

There will be 3 charges each called "Block", "Deflect", and "Critical". When a match starts, each player will have all their charges full except for Critical which will start empty. You use charges to get a GUARANTEED block, deflect, critical for 1 turn. This is like a temporary buff, after 1 turn passes it dissipates (So predicting is key).

After a charge is used it has to recharge in the same manor as rage (In fact, they can make this using the same coding as rage). The charges uses 100 points; each player gets 10 by default each turn; except for critical which is 5. Now, charges get bonus points in a manor similar to how blocking, deflecting works:

Every 10 points of DEX over the opponent grants 5 additional points (Example only)
Same way for SUP and critical.

Now certain skills that affect critical for example will add fixed points to the charge:

Hitting with Bunker Buster will add 25 points to the critical gauge.

Now finally, I would like to direct everyone reading to THIS "extremely old" thread's post #102. It is my same proposition, but using a token system instead. I also elaborated more a little there.
AQW Epic  Post #: 586
2/24/2012 21:31:59   
Emptiness
Member
 

 Still us 2vs2 players are getting ignored, my favorite mode, I used to like to spend some free time on this game but it seems nothings changed were just back at the same game.. no scratch that worse game then before. Players are getting unreasonable loses due to terrible partners or unfair match ups. I've just now gotten a lvl 33 str nonvarium merc and a lvl 34 varium tlm 5 focus abuser, how am i suppose to win, please someone give me an answer when my partner get killed in 2 turns, 34 damage then 50 damage. Others could say then do 1vs1, I dislike 1vs1 for my own reasons no need to share them here but why play it if I don't enjoy it. Exactly how long has this game been here? It's nearing 3 years if i recall correctly yet nothing has really changed in 2vs2.

What happened to skilled people? Now all I see is 5 focus or str builds, no need to blame the players, the option for them was put there by the devs. This game isn't moving forward it's just staying in the same place and moving slowly backwards bit by bit each update, we 2vs2 players have been ignored far to long, look at the all time boards for 1vs1 and 2vs2 and now compare them, the top 1vs1 and 2vs2 players have a 160,000 win difference how is it exactly fair. Others could argue that the top 2vs2 player dosen't play a lot, okay lets just say they didn't retire, they would be at what? Around 50k or 60k wins that is still a 130,000 win difference. I applaud 2vs2 players for they have to go through many disadvantages, less tokens, less credits, less wins, less recognition. I can't even imagine how frustrated they got when there partner lags out or just has a starting wep, how many loses come from just that for an average player? Probably at least 10%-20% of their loses. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.



< Message edited by Emptiness -- 2/24/2012 21:32:21 >
Post #: 587
2/25/2012 3:14:32   
Archlord Raistlin
Member
 

 It seems to me there are far too many conflicting opinions on every subject under the sun concerning this game.
It is enough to drive anyone insane... The introduction of TLM started this mess and despite the lame nerfs it has
received, it is still one of two "clearly" OP classes. CH only has a chance against TLM because of plamsa armor,
which allows them (just like TLM) to make similar choices with little sacrifice. Both can have OP defenses and a
couple of good offensive build options. So the strategy is not in the game, but in your build if you're not one of
the "chosen" classes, and more often than not your only strategy option is a strength build (and luck in the battles).

If you're going to bring back some sacrifice to the TLM class, then do something radical like...

If you are a tank, then fine, but take away chance for de-buff (technician) (except robot) for those 3-4 turns
(this will force them to think about tech and resistance)
If you are a tank, then fine, but take away all defensive nerfs to opponents (smoke)
(this will force them to think about how powerful physical AND energy attacks are)
If you are a tank, then fine, but take away all chance of energy regen (reroute)...like merc used to be
(this will force them to think about strategically using their skills)

These options would all lower the stat point abuse which is at the heart of this whole problem...

TLM would still have str and sup attack options, but other classes might actually now have a chance to do some
damage of their own. Now the TLM would have to think rather than just sit back with little worries and wait for
their OP attacks to crit or rage. Sure there would be some crying, but if the other classes aren't going to be
"brought up", then this would bring some fairness as well as strategy back into the game.




Post #: 588
2/25/2012 3:50:11   
kittycat
Member

@ Archlord: I agree with you, Blood Mages sacrifice a great deal of Defense and Resistance to obtain Strength power, but while the other builds are the ability to freely get EP and possibly gain HP within 1 or 2 turns without an energy pack. CHs and TLMs have the power to gain HP after receiving EP intake, have 30+ defense and resistance, and a lot more.
AQ MQ  Post #: 589
2/25/2012 5:52:36   
TurkishIncubus
Member

Healloop is back , Tank CH healloop is more stronger than the Beta TM healloop

I got 2 DC 4 Battle failed and got 97% i also got 3 loses from another build so i just lost once against a very-ultra-extrem lucky oponent.

And MODs dont nerf it again , i win all but its very slow build thats the point of it, slow but high %, if it will be slow + same % with regular builds than whats the point of using tank build.

< Message edited by TurkishIncubus -- 2/25/2012 5:53:58 >
Epic  Post #: 590
2/25/2012 6:25:01   
Remorse
Member

@Archlord agree :)



But I think the soultion is alot more simpeler.


Balance was reasonably good when having an amazing passive such as passive armour ment as a sacrifise you did NOT have a defeence debuff such as smoke or malf,
It means you DOT have an energy gain...
Quite frankly is quite obvious blanace is soo messed up atm.


SOLUTION.

1. Remove enahancements for Auxilaries and guns. (Before this date there were barely and problem at all with stat abusers in fact back then they were just part of a balanced variety)

2. Remove Mineral armour from TLMs and Plasma armour from Cuber hunters! The give them a unique new skill each.

Result, People want have to be forced to use power builds to beat these high defence high dmagae and effortless use classes, or go them.
Spamming wont be a balance issue it would be an equalpart of vairety.
We wont get ripped off constantly from gun and aux enahments, and mercs will be equal with everyone else.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 2/25/2012 6:27:44 >
Epic  Post #: 591
2/25/2012 8:36:58   
Stabilis
Member

quote:

Cuber hunters!


Yes, yessssssss!!!

Reminds me of when I had called everyone a cucumber hunter.

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 2/25/2012 9:12:43 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 592
2/25/2012 12:09:47   
kittycat
Member

Remorse: I agree, but why not Blood Mages get Hybrid Armor?
AQ MQ  Post #: 593
2/25/2012 12:40:53   
Fay Beeee
Member

Just tweeted by Nightwraith, concerns balance. :)
quote:

Nightwraith
ED did a low level balance adjustment this release. Probably do another next week, balance update for higher levels that is


< Message edited by Fay Beeee -- 2/25/2012 12:43:37 >
Epic  Post #: 594
2/25/2012 12:43:07   
Stabilis
Member

Never mind, the next balance update is to high-levels.

WIN.

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 2/25/2012 12:45:24 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 595
2/25/2012 12:47:19   
Ranloth
Banned


 Now let's try to "force" the Devs to tell us what's changing before the release, or like nao! xD All I want is passive Armors gone, Support buff at last (for deflection loss) and maybe Str changes to nerf abusing. :3
AQ Epic  Post #: 596
2/25/2012 12:47:56   
Oba
Member

@kittycat, I am also a BloodMage, who think it need some kind of buff (energy regain in some way), but giving them a passive armor would totally ruin the balance.

quote:

ED did a low level balance adjustment this release. Probably do another next week, balance update for higher levels that is


I wonder what that might be for a balance update to higher levels!
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 597
2/25/2012 12:53:48   
Stabilis
Member

Cyber hunters had just one passive skill before, shadow arts.

Technician was removed and replaced with a second passive skill, plasma armour.

Battle tracker should show the statistics, as I know that this class has become ridiculously popular and visibly powerful in battle.

I almost know that plasma armour is responsible. The armour is nearly always the cause. For mercenaries: hybrid armour was decidedly split. For tactical mercenaries: mineral armour was fixed to defence only. These defensive/resistant points compromise requiring dexterity or technology points, essentially.

Up to 13 points in defence/resistance is proportionally equal to 52->65 stat points. And we are trying to fix stat problems? And even more sobering, is that 3 out of 6 classes have access to this power... while the other half do not.

I do not appreciate armours as much as the other passives which I find to be less effective, the current hybrid armour for mercenaries being an exception, being a reduced value although it still is compromising stat points. Also mercenaries having an immutual skill tree with no synergy really. And mercenaries have but one passive and no way to restore energy.

I have a recommendation towards editing cyber hunters:

ᴥRemove plasma armour.

ᴥRemove shadow arts.

ᴥRemove malfunction. <- OP. For a class with this many energy attacks and a rapid energy regeneration, also, technology determines the ranged effectiveness, and there is no support nerfing skill to compromise malfunction.

ᴥRemove cheap shot. <- UP. There is only one Primary attack skill for this class... and this require class-specific weapons

ᴥAdd plasma aura.

ᴥAdd cyber arts.

ᴥAdd blue ruin.

ᴥAdd energy shield.

Plasma Aura:

Whenever any attack using a Primary is used against a player possessing plasma aura, the attacker takes shock damage.

Level 1: Attacker takes 1% of their total health in damage (not affected by any defences).
Level 2: Attacker takes 2% of their total health in damage (not affected by any defences).
Level 3: Attacker takes 3% of their total health in damage (not affected by any defences).
Level 4: Attacker takes 4% of their total health in damage (not affected by any defences).
Level 5: Attacker takes 5% of their total health in damage (not affected by any defences).
Level 6: Attacker takes 6% of their total health in damage (not affected by any defences).
Level 7: Attacker takes 7% of their total health in damage (not affected by any defences).
Level 8: Attacker takes 8% of their total health in damage (not affected by any defences).
Level 9: Attacker takes 9% of their total health in damage (not affected by any defences).
Level 10: Attacker takes 10% of their total health in damage (not affected by any defences).

Weapon Required: None
Stat Required: None
Level Required: replaces plasma armour
Improves With: None
Warm Up: 0
Cool Down: 0

Cyber Arts:

Passively increases the bonus to hit with a Primary weapon and increases rage rate.

Level 1: 1% bonus to hit with a Primary weapon and 2% increase to rage gain.
Level 2: 2% bonus to hit with a Primary weapon and 4% increase to rage gain.
Level 3: 3% bonus to hit with a Primary weapon and 6% increase to rage gain.
Level 4: 4% bonus to hit with a Primary weapon and 8% increase to rage gain.
Level 5: 5% bonus to hit with a Primary weapon and 10% increase to rage gain.
Level 6: 6% bonus to hit with a Primary weapon and 12% increase to rage gain.
Level 7: 7% bonus to hit with a Primary weapon and 14% increase to rage gain.
Level 8: 8% bonus to hit with a Primary weapon and 16% increase to rage gain.
Level 9: 9% bonus to hit with a Primary weapon and 18% increase to rage gain.
Level 10: 10% bonus to hit with a Primary weapon and 20% increase to rage gain.

Weapon Required: None
Stat Required: 24 Technology (+2 per skill level) (42 Technology at max)
Level Required: replaces shadow arts
Improves With: None
Warm Up: 0
Cool Down: 0

Blue Ruin:

Assail an enemy with 2 devastating strikes (to vulnerable areas EXAMPLE the head or legs) with the held primary weapon. Improves with strength.

Energy Required:
Level 1: 16
Level 2: 18
Level 3: 20
Level 4: 22
Level 5: 24
Level 6: 26
Level 7: 28
Level 8: 30
Level 9: 32
Level 10: 34

Damage Progressions
Level 1: 34% more damage
Level 2: 38% more damage
Level 3: 42% more damage
Level 4: 46% more damage
Level 5: 50% more damage
Level 6: 54% more damage
Level 7: 58% more damage
Level 8: 62% more damage
Level 9: 66% more damage
Level 10: 70% more damage

Weapon Required: Wrist blades or Sword
Stat Required: 19 Support (+1 per skill level)
Level Required: replaces cheap shot
Improves With: Strength
Warm Up: 0
Cool Down: 2

Energy shield replaces malfunction.

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 2/25/2012 12:55:00 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 598
2/25/2012 13:02:24   
kittycat
Member

In that case, then cyber hunters have no stat debuff.
AQ MQ  Post #: 599
2/25/2012 13:03:32   
Stabilis
Member

Anything else you would like to say?

EDIT: I suppose I can discuss the effect of removing malfunction from CH.

Reduces offensive output. Reduces the offensive ability of massacre CH, and multi-shot CH. Reduces mastery in battle over ranged weapons.

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 2/25/2012 13:14:36 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 600
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