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2/2/2012 2:46:50   
Hun Kingq
Member

In a recent 2vs2 match a Cyber Hunter go 42 critical damage with static charge on me so saying static charge does not do good damage is hog wash. In many 2vs2 battles the Cyber Hunters was able to get half or all of their energy back 4+ times and since staff and many players think that the Blood Mage don't need energy regain I lost those matches not only because of that but also because of blocks and low damage with the side arm, even at high strength.

Over 90% of the matches I lost because the level 34 partner left or did not fight just so I would get more losses and that is just plain nasty, rude, selfish punk like nature.

They are trying to get things balanced out by obtaining data from the matches but when players treat another player like that just to get more losses that is not helping things out so now don't ask me for fame during the match any more or not durg the match because you will get none.

Will they ever do something for the Blood Mage class probably not will things truly be balanced, no.
Epic  Post #: 151
2/2/2012 4:18:17   
drinde
Member

quote:

As we know, Yeti's special is only useable once per battle. Would changing these 2 bots to once per battle help in the end?

About 65-70% would be better. Yes it isn't a lot less but they are Varium which is slight advantage.


Great idea!
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 152
2/2/2012 4:45:37   
Colarndo
Member

I am a BM and BM is fine for a 1v1 match, however when it comes to a 2v2 match, BM loses out to the CH/TLM class. CH drains our mp and regains their fast. Their strikes hit harder after they mal, TLM hits harder after they smoke, BM w/o assault bot is screwed.
It doesn't help that we have a useless skill called intimidate. As for now, I crinch in my seat whenever I see 2 CH opponents in 2v2.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 153
2/2/2012 5:55:46   
drinde
Member

Enhancement Cost Override?

Cost = WEP LV x120 Credits per ENH
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 154
2/2/2012 20:10:56   
ultrafried
Member
 

I believe that the basic stats (str,dex,tech,supp) one of the most fundamental parts of this game is currently quite unbalanced. I think to get the stats back in balance str and dex need a nerf and tech and supp need a buff but it's not quite so simple so I've thought of a way with several changes that I think would bring the stats closer to balance.

Str: take sidearm damage and gain rage rate increase.
Dex: Change the % of extra block given for having a dex advantage from 1% per 2 points to 1% per 3 points.
Tech: Gain deflect chance increase(I know this already going to happen but at the time of this post it hasn't happened yet)
Supp: Gain sidearm damage, lose deflect chance increase, lose rage rate increase and lose increased chance to go first (the chance to go first will simply be 50% if your the same lvl).

On a side note also switch the required stat on deadly aim from supp to str.
DF  Post #: 155
2/2/2012 20:29:32   
Calogero
Member

quote:

Supp: Gain sidearm damage,


Please, do tell me you are just joking...
If you're not, then excuse me while I'll bang my head against a wall...

TLM + Full Support build + Gun + Aux + Multi
a Serious Facepalm moment is required

The basic stats aren't Unbalanced, the fact that we have to MANY stats due to enhancements is what's causing the imbalancement


< Message edited by andy123 -- 2/2/2012 20:31:28 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 156
2/2/2012 22:34:26   
ultrafried
Member
 

Imo support is the weakest stat of all of them by far and will just become weaker once deflect is lost.
I don't really see how that build would be much different from a str BM right now
TLM full support could do Gun+Aux+Mult+Gun but I don't really see how that's much stronger than BM who can do Gun,FB,Strike,Gun also the trade off is losing rage increase, losing deflect, and losing first strike increase

I don't really get your point about too many stats due to enhancements either I suppose this makes the gap between varium and non varium much larger than it should be since non-varium can almost never afford them but I don't really see how it causes imbalance otherwise.
Don't get me wrong I don't think this will all of a sudden balance the game perfectly either it just seemed like such a fundamental thing. Look at any class right now and you will see the most popular builds are either str builds or dex builds. Is that because every class has more synergy with one or both of those stats or is it because there is an inbalance between the stats themselves?

< Message edited by ultrafried -- 2/2/2012 22:36:44 >
DF  Post #: 157
2/2/2012 22:45:51   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

Please, do tell me you are just joking...
If you're not, then excuse me while I'll bang my head against a wall...

TLM + Full Support build + Gun + Aux + Multi
a Serious Facepalm moment is required

The basic stats aren't Unbalanced, the fact that we have to MANY stats due to enhancements is what's causing the imbalancement

u make it seem as if TLM would be the OP one.
if they do this, CH will be the OP not tlm.
why?
they have more energy pool than tlm.
and malfunction runs on support, means bigger malf at low lvls with heavy support(by low lvl i mean like lvl 1-3 malf, not actual low lvl players). and also a heavy shield.

so while tlm gets gun and aux, and artillery.

CH gets defense, gun, aux, malf.

also mage would be better than TLM aswell.
DA with gun, aux, and heavy support,
mage would have,
aux, gun +DA, malf, defense.


< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 2/2/2012 22:46:29 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 158
2/2/2012 22:55:39   
Goony
Constructive!


quote:

Enhancement Cost Override?

Cost = WEP LV x120 Credits per ENH


100 credits would be fine, at max level (34) it is currently 3500 credits for 1 enhance so 100 credits would make it 3400 for a level 34 weapon. But the enhancements cost needs to also change at a set rate not get higher as you get more enhancements!

Go Hudelf Go! Plenty to do when you have time :)
Epic  Post #: 159
2/2/2012 23:58:12   
ultrafried
Member
 

quote:

u make it seem as if TLM would be the OP one.
if they do this, CH will be the OP not tlm.
why?
they have more energy pool than tlm.
and malfunction runs on support, means bigger malf at low lvls with heavy support(by low lvl i mean like lvl 1-3 malf, not actual low lvl players). and also a heavy shield.

so while tlm gets gun and aux, and artillery.

CH gets defense, gun, aux, malf.

also mage would be better than TLM aswell.
DA with gun, aux, and heavy support,
mage would have,
aux, gun +DA, malf, defense.

That's a good point I hadn't thought about the fact that malph improved with support that would be a bit like if smoke improved with str. I supposed the fix there would be to make malph scale with dex maybe...
DM/ES getting huge values could be a real problem for anybody who relied on only one damage type like the new str builds would. That could be solved by doing with them what they did to heal.
I guess in the end with how interconnected everything is in this game you got to make adjustments to a lot of things when u decide to make big changes.
DF  Post #: 160
2/3/2012 0:03:29   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

That's a good point I hadn't thought about the fact that malph improved with support that would be a bit like if smoke improved with str. I supposed the fix there would be to make malph scale with dex maybe...

that would make super charge mage, and dex CH OP.
AQW Epic  Post #: 161
2/4/2012 3:57:37   
Archlord Raistlin
Member
 

I see the balance thread has slowed lately...maybe hopelessness has set in.

There have been comments from some great 2v2 players on this thread highlighting issues that need
some attention. The main being BH, TM, BM and Merc have to make choices AND sacrifices unlike
TLM/CH...they just have to make choices. Hybrid is the root cause of this imbalance and it shows up
more in 2v2 than in 1v1. Are you taking seriously the comments and frustrations of these players
with 250,000 2v2 battles worth of experience? Or the smurf with 700 battles in 2v2 who argues the
opposite and claims everything is OK...? It is really unacceptable to concentrate solely on one part of
the game and hope it "works out" in the rest of it.

If you can create the TLM, and "bring up" the CH class, to compete in any battle mode, you can do it
for the rest of us.

...at least before we wander off into the sunset please :)





Post #: 162
2/4/2012 4:29:03   
Ranloth
Banned


I feel like posting here again but with more lengthy post, which I first sent as PM to someone but wanna share it! Sorry if it's quite complex but I had to go into detail.. .__.'

Firstly I'll go with Cyber Hunters which currently are on the top of the food chain. I remember suggesting to change Static into BL but for Energy which will be advantage for all builds and they can all take advantage from it, as BL works for all items not just Primary. This means Dex builds will still be used but less often because it won't be all about Str and Dex builds (CHs) but there can be bigger variety. At the same time, their defence will go down as they won't need as much of it (unless it's their own choice) which will reduce the amount of Tank builds between CHs which are currently nuisance for everyone. Also SA, which is currently their best friend for staying untouchable, I know CH is themed into Tech'y Class which is let's say crossover between BHs and TMs so I suggest dropping SA to reduce tankiness and replacing with Assimilation: reason for that is lower regen from BL will reduce their Massacre/Heal loop and Assimilation might help them gain some Energy back and give big strategical value! It isn't all about Str builds which are abused in almost every class so this might really change how CHs would play and make them more balanced! :)
Prime example of if these were considered would be stop of infinite Massacre because you would either have to Malf and Massacre or train Energy in order to get some space for heal in quick fights, a bit different in longer fights where more EP could be regenerated.

Another issue on top of my head is the blocking. Currently formula is "Block Chance Adjustment = (Defender's Dexterity - Attacker's Dexterity) / 2". We have 10% fixed to add for adjusted blocking chance and it cannot fall below 4% (overall blocking). Going by 3 examples here: 80 Dex build vs 50 Dex & 110 Dex build vs 50 Dex & 100 Dex build vs. 20 Dex (smoked, about -30 Dex) (both Tanks against normal'er build (Str/Support/etc)). First gives 25% chance to block, second gives 40% chance and last one is 50% chance to block. That is for Defender, now attacker on given examples has: 4% chance, 4% chance and again 4% chance. Isn't that quite unfair? Luck plays a role there that our unlucky person will block a lot but it isn't really fair how low it is even if luck didn' play a role in it. I have suggestion of Dex giving "Dex/2" chance to block the attack. That means 100% chance at 200 Dex but it isn't everything - opponent has same chance to hit you "Dex/2)" which is simply Bonus to Hit.
Using above examples again but with the suggestion, defender has: 40% chance to block, 55% chance to block and 50% chance to block. Our attacker has 25% chance to hit on both scenarios and 10% on the last one. Now what we do is take chance to hit away from Defender's chance to block: 15% chance to block, 30% chance to block and 40% chance to block!
This really makes more sense as it doesn't involve as much luck anymore and it has a purpose. Equal Dex builds will have probably near 0% chance to block which isn't that fair but that's why there are Dex rising skills or Def/Res which will lower the damage drastically and even though you get hit, there's still chance to miss even by little difference in Dex but not big. It's really a lot better than current formula because there's less luck involved in fixed 4% chance to block (it's gone) and Dex has more of a purpose to be actually trained. Also even with basic Dex; not trained at all, you will never truly have 100% hit/block rate because it will be capped at 100% (so 200 Dex, this would be serious abuse of one stat) and cannot go beyond.

Not important but still good point - changing "Going First" formula would be very appreciated. Players understand that lower Lvls will have bigger chance to go first to make it a bit more fair but when it's 1-2 Lvls difference or same Lvl, Support does too little to raise your chances. Players find themselves, Support builds, going second with players with very low Support and of same Lvl if not higher. Unfortunatelly I have no idea on how it'd be changed but simple solution that came to my mind is giving, per Lvl difference, 20% chance to go first up to 100% at 5 Lvls difference; there's another step to it which would be Support - seeing at it improves every stat by little, it cannot be overpowered so making "Support/5" chance to go first would be somewhat balanced in my opinion. If we take non-Support build vs. Support build (30 vs 100 (example)), that means 1st player gets 6% more chance while 2nd player will get 20% chance to go first. If we take 5 Lvls difference: 1st player (5 Lvls lower) has 100% - 20% + 6% = 86% chance to go first while 2nd player has 20% chance to go first. Now if we use same stats as before but same Lvl, this gives 6% chance to go first and 2nd player gets 20% chance to go first. It doesn't seem quite right really but I'm just trying to give suggestions here - perhaps putting fixed rate there or RNG (Random Number Generator) would fix the numbers as mine really is low! ^^

Also about bots! They, are quite strong at the moment. Assault Bot and Heart Borg in particular. As we know, Yeti's special is only useable once per battle. Would changing these 2 bots to once per battle help in the end? In those really long fights, both bots can be used at least twice which gives advantage; even too big if non-Varium.. Giving it only once per battle would make the choices perhaps more wiser as you could not use it again. Perhaps slight change could be good as well. 80% is quite a lot, whether it's Assault or Heart Bot. About 65-70% would be better. Yes it isn't a lot less but they are Varium which is slight advantage. Lowering it by even that 10-15% is still improvement, with Borg in particular which can debuff Energy Shield/Matrix - there 10% with high Matrix is 3-4 Defence, more as we raise % taken away. Not much but it's 3-4 less damage taken per turn, and so on.

Lastly I want to ask if having Guns improved with Dex would be good? Having Str improving 2 weapons at the same time isn't fair because it favours Str builds a lot. Could improvement with mostly Dex (let's say 80%) and rest 20% to be improved by Str be actually considered? Str builds would have to actually invest in Support or Dex to raise Aux or Gun damage which brings their damage down done with Primary and makes them less abuseable. (greenrain13 suggested it first IIRC)


I re-added Bots suggestion here, wasn't sent in original PM. :P But anyway, I would like to see people's view on it. Formulae suggestions might seem simple but it's just an example.
AQ Epic  Post #: 163
2/4/2012 5:04:23   
Goony
Constructive!


Not enjoying playing as a merc and Blood Mages are in no way shape or form underpowered in either 2v2 2v1 or 1v1 it's just the 2 top classes CH and TIM are so effective.

Bottom of the food chain and worse from the update, seriously field commander for me went up by 5 str points, just able to get 1 more damage... So five extra damage in total now from a level 1 FC and 10 precious energy, at max and 20 energy I'd get 50 str points still not worth the turn to activate... The hybrid armor was adjusted so that it is split and I was able to invest in dexterity instead of technology, now that deflect is moved to technology... Bam, back to useless... Give mercs a regenerative skill or something useful... tanks without regenerative effects can only last so long...

Just my opinion... Again, whinging about balance.
By the way I think the buff too plasma bolt was too much at the top levels ;)

< Message edited by Goony -- 2/4/2012 5:07:37 >
Epic  Post #: 164
2/4/2012 5:06:57   
Remorse
Member

@ trans
Great post and ideas trans! :)

I to feal very similar to the way you feel in most topics and I also feal you ideas to solve them are great.


I also have alternate solutions to most of those topics but my solutions revovle around counerting problems rather then nerfing them, perhaps better or worse I dont know but it proberly keep people happier.


I agree with you CH idea, I think shadow arts needs to go a passive defence AND high blocks is just not on.

My soltution to blocks:
A new feature called:
MEDITATION (Or whatever you want to call it.)
It works similar to rage in the sence that it is a fillable bar preferably below or above rage bar but it works diffrently.
Each time a player does not deal any damage (sheilds and being blocked or skipped turns) it fills the meditiaon bar (to around the same porportion hitting someone with high defence boosts rage), The meditation bar is also filled to a lessor amount by how much the oppenent deals in damage but unlike rage it does not take into account of defences so if you sheild and a once powerful attack by you oppenent is dramatically lowered it still fills the meditiaon bar a decent amount. (So it doesnt contridict itself by not providing benfits to using sheilds)

HOW DOES IT WORK?
When the meditation bar is full the player can use any NONattack skill which includes -sheilds,boosters-healing-Buffs- ASWELL as any ATTCKskill staright after. This will mean players wont have their odds of winning dramatically lowered simply by taking valuable turns to set up startegy or by being blocked hopefully leading to more variety in the future.


It will also allow for very interesting combination which may help to revive lost stratgies for example Feild commander is a long since forgotten skill simply because players can not afford to waste the turn to cast it HOWEVER combined with meditation the player could feild commander and attack in the same turn.


WHEN DOES THE BAR NOT GET USED?
If the player does not wont to use the meditiation bar when its full all they need to do is simply attack and it will be prostponed to whenever the player uses a NONattack skill, Similar to how rage is prosponed until an ATTACKskill is used.


WHO WILL BE AFFECTED?
This bar is designed mainly to be filled by builds which revovle around survivng with NONattack skills or by players who get blcoked constantly, It will not necesarily make TANK build stronger as most tank builds dont actuly take turns to set up defences, it is also desgined to fill the bar quickly if you are agianst an oppenent that deals MASSIVE dmagae in quick amount of turns as the bar is fiilled by an amount according to the damgae the oppenent inflicts.

BENEFITS?
Hopefully it will increase variety aswell as opportuinites in these sorts of builds as factors such as the heartbreakerbot has made them increasingly UNpopular.
It will also hopefully slow the domination by all powerhouse builds which are very hard to counter and uslay require luck to beat.

GOING FIRST?
If you start you get no meditation bar bonus, if you dont start you are given a decent amount of meditation in you bar before you take turns.
This will stop players getting major advanatges just by starting.

MY SOLUTION TO BOTS!
Rather then nerf the current ones all we need to do is create counter such as:
COUNTER BOT: Automatically stops the opponents robot's special by causing it to fail, The oppoenent however gets another turn but their robot will be in cool down as well as the person with the counter robots' robot.
This bot cannot automatically stop the others special IF it is already in cool down from attacking.


There is often many ways around nerfing usally more affective and will last longer in my opinion but hey everyones diffrent.

Remorse Less!

< Message edited by Remorse -- 2/4/2012 5:07:35 >
Epic  Post #: 165
2/4/2012 14:36:11   
Ranloth
Banned


Hmm, while it'd be quite a decent feature, it might be hard to code it because you'd have to ignore player's turn in order for you to go twice which is somewhat along of "free stun", which might put you at disadvantage, even if fighting lower Lvls. Solution that Devs tried to come up with was putting 1 turn warm-up for Smoke & Malf because they are usually used first in most of the battles (that or defensive skill) which gives you too big advantage if they go first -> you get smoked/malfed, need to counter it, and finally do the same to them/heal - see the difference now?
But nevertheless, it's decent idea and I quite like it! :3

About bots, if the "Counter Bot" was to work like that, it'd still not be full solution as you'd have to buy it - price can be high as well - and what does that leave for mid-Lvl players against high-Lvls? Not everyone get a bot so it wouldn't be that much of a solution, but overall idea for the bot would be good. Quite a strategical value. ^^

But as I said above, bots' special attack should be made one-time only per battle just like Yeti's and lower Borg's + Assault's 80% down to about 60% which will give you less of an edge in the battle. As I said, not everyone can afford the bot so it shouldn't decide as much if you win or not.
AQ Epic  Post #: 166
2/4/2012 14:42:22   
Elf Priest JZaanu
Constructive!


With both Assault bot and Azrael's Borg, in the past, I would refer the 80% reduction as Build Maintainers, and they also build imposers. Though both do different specials, the end result is the same; it makes the opponent work harder offensively or defenseless (vs extreme builds/high power skill).

Yeti is limited as is Gamma.

Though Gamma is a powerful offensive attack, it is only 1 attack while the specials of assault and Azrael's borg last up to 4 turns.

I made a suggestion prior that if anyone wishes to use the extreme fullest to passively, they need to invest points into it. A sacrifice of some sort needs to be added. I enjoy playing a passive defensive style with tactical strategy vs any build, but being pommelled by extreme powered builds is not favorable to me since I cannot defend myself to use any strategy.

As players learn to utilize Azrael Bot like they did with Assault, the game will shift to high strength/power based attack (4 rounds and under), and defense passive play(5+rounds) will not be able to compete at any level vs. this bot.

< Message edited by JZaanu -- 2/4/2012 14:45:52 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 167
2/4/2012 14:52:14   
Remorse
Member

^ and trans,

This is true,

And I do see trans how putting a limit on the number of times bots are usable would help.

BUT fact is these bots kill stratgy with one turn. Yes people who cannot obtain the counter bot will suffer BUT they would most likely not have the stratgy used which was killed buy these bots in the first place.

With the counter bot it stops old builds being destroyed while keeping the new ones.


Also a meditation feature doesnt just help with starting problems , it helps revive all strategy builds which are easily destroyed with some of todays builds it also lessons the impact of luck in the form of blocks and stuns as they both give meditiation.

It would not be that hard to code, if they can make bots which disable wepons then Im sure they can code the extra NONattack skill followed by an extra Attack/Attckskill.

It would also allow for both meditation and rage combintations which could be deadly if say the person feild comandered then raged zerker in the same turn. Awsome tactics allowing for much more complicated fights and variety.
Epic  Post #: 168
2/4/2012 15:05:33   
Ranloth
Banned


Well as I said about the bot, it's good idea but possibly for another Bot and it could slightly lower the gap but not as good unless there was lower version of bot to be made, which would really be difficult as effect would be hard to "weaken"; it's lower version so must have less power.
I'd say current bots should be released in twos as well - so lower Lvls also get something from it, but weaker bot not to make them too strong. A lot lower price = more players can afford it, and perhaps even high Lvl non-Varium could get it (if it was Varium, then lower price for lower effect).
Also what can be done is change how Focus works to lessen amount of Focus builds and use of bots that might either destroy your strategy or kill you in even 2 turns (let's say Smoke/Malf and Bot). It happens to some people, did few times to me as well.

About meditation, I see how it works now. I thought of it in different way, but it'd probably work like a "invisible stun" and block the skills that are using weapons. But how would it work - would there be choice to use meditation when it's full or automatically? Hope it's the former.


< Message edited by Trans -- 2/4/2012 15:07:01 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 169
2/4/2012 16:46:38   
rej
Member

to fix the extreme overcharged nature of cyber hunters:
1. Replace plasma armor with technician.
2. fire the entire balance team so the community will not have to put up with any more balance disasters.
3. Start taking polls on balance updates from players before implementing them.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 170
2/4/2012 16:47:03   
TurkishIncubus
Member

I should accept that changing deflect to tech was the worst idea ever and i also supported it

_____________________________

Epic  Post #: 171
2/4/2012 16:49:52   
Stabilis
Member

Its kind of crude but I support rej's suggestion in many ways. However:
quote:


to fix the extreme overcharged nature of cyber hunters:
1. Replace plasma armor with technician energy shield.
2. fire the entire balance team so the community will not have to put up with any more balance disasters.
3. Start taking polls on balance updates from players before implementing them.


< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 2/4/2012 16:50:18 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 172
2/4/2012 16:53:28   
Wootz
Member

quote:

to fix the extreme overcharged nature of cyber hunters:
1. Replace plasma armor with technician energy shield.
2. fire the entire balance team so the community will not have to put up with any more balance disasters.
3. Start taking polls on balance updates from players before implementing them.


You people seriously need to think about yourself.
The balance team did more then you have and ever will on here.
Most of the people who now complain about CHs didn't even complain how TLMs were OP'd.
Can't have a normal day on AEF; now, can I?
AQW Epic  Post #: 173
2/4/2012 16:53:37   
TurkishIncubus
Member

@Depressed Void

Plasma armor is fine but Changing deflect to Tech is extreme buff for CH and Tanks
Epic  Post #: 174
2/4/2012 16:56:39   
Stabilis
Member

I don't support the firing the balance team really but I suppose it could use some reality-check it certain situations.

Such as, why plasma armour? Is that not a tank skill? For a HUNTER?
AQ Epic  Post #: 175
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