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RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread

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2/6/2012 0:52:08   
BlueKatz
Member

Weird, guess just my luck. Since I'm STR TM the only time I have low Rage hit is when I use Aux and get deflected :/
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 201
2/6/2012 1:55:37   
Goony
Constructive!


 @BlueKatz, there was a rumor that they would look at reducing the 1st turn advantage by offsetting it. They proposed to do this by adding rage points to the person going second.

At the moment if you increased the def/res ignore % back up again, the only player it will advantage is the player who goes 1st... Maybe wait to see what they do about 1st turn and then see if rage ignore % can be lifted...

The Blood Mage class thrives on getting rage 1st with consistent high damage attacks and lifting it now will just skew the advantage again to the evolved classes.

Just my opinion
Epic  Post #: 202
2/6/2012 7:35:00   
Remorse
Member

I disagree to rage getting a buff, Many abusive builds gain the extra power through rage.


Rage is what makes soo many of these effortless using builds alsmot COMPLETELY counterless.



If rage where to ever get a buff then I would hope first that it is changed to be more influenced by support and less by high damage.
Builds like STR blood mages abuse rage to the extreme and any buff of it will lead to many worse balance porbelms later on with the current rage style.


The problem is rage has morphed from being a counter to tanks to being an effective attack advanatge to power abusers, who do not need any extra power.

Perhaps a change to rage to make it more like what it was intended to do, a way to do so is reduce the total amount of rage given to an attacker if a high % of the total dmagae was not reduced through defence.

For example. if 50% or more of the attack was defended out then rage would be like normal with no reductions. eg. the attack hits 60 dmagae on a player with 30 defence reducuing the dmagae to 30. because
exactly 50% of the attack was defended there would be no rage reductuons.

HOW TO CALCULATE RAGE REDUCTION IF LESS THEN 50% IS BLOCKED.

You take the defender defence, then you take the total amount of damgae dealt by the attacker. for example the attacker is a blood mage doing 70! dmagae on someone with 30 defence.
30/70 = 0.43 or 43% that is 7% under the 50% no reduction line thus reducing the rage point given by 7.

With this reduction in place rage will not give extreme bonuses to those with extreme power nor will it give extra bonuses to those with extreme defence.
It will reduce the varium non varium gap and it will allow a possible buffing to rage without leading to further balance issues.

Remorse Less.



< Message edited by Remorse -- 2/6/2012 7:36:21 >
Epic  Post #: 203
2/7/2012 0:16:39   
Nub Apocalypse
Member

Just here to suggest:
1. Reduce Minimum Block chance to 1%
2. Increase Maximum Block chance to 45%
3. Make Block Rates scale by 3 instead of 2
Post #: 204
2/7/2012 10:38:01   
BlueKatz
Member

@Remorse Well can you list some build that abuse Rage that much? Remember Rage will ignore 45% Def/Res so with current play it will be like 15 Damage bonus. With double Rage, it's only 15 more damage in play.

Rage does not increase your damage by %, it increase your damage by a fixed amount (base on enemy build)
It sure give you some advantage when dealing 50+10 damage instead of 30 + 30 damage. But really, I think it's more of the Power abuse skill fault than the Rage. As an example: Rage Aux is that powerful not because of the Rage, but the Aux have +5 damage more than other weapon.

The real advantage of Rage that if you Rage first (in a very equal fight) then you win. Because the damage you dealt is too high to counter (enemy already dead) and this is what may make Rage powerful for Power abuse build. It's obvious that Power Abuse build rely on killing enemy with 1 blow because they sure can't do anything else.

We can have some diff way to balance it like Making Rage ignore lower (like 33%) while Rage faster.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 205
2/7/2012 12:23:56   
Remorse
Member

^ Well persoanlly I think rage is too fast.

But it may be because I use a high defence build but it certainly doesnt help when trying to play defensive and the power abuser manages to kill you before you can actuly start to attack.


If it was all good and balanced I would support a rage buff, but Until their is major changes to balance currently I would prefer not to lose yet another hint of a counter in countering these rediculous builds, They stopped sheilds with the bot imagine the diasaster to balance if they got frequent rages...

The problem with these builds is they dont have no way near enough counters and the ones remaning are slowly getting dmaged over time from things such as slow incline of wepons damage or the heartbreaker bot.
Epic  Post #: 206
2/7/2012 17:33:05   
rej
Member

quote:

Just here to suggest:
1. Reduce Minimum Block chance to 1%
2. Increase Maximum Block chance to 45%
3. Make Block Rates scale by 3 instead of 2

Love it. But the maximum block chance should be 35% rather than 45%. :)
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 207
2/7/2012 18:29:54   
Joe10112
Member

Shouldn't Cheap Shot be unblockable? Plasma Cannon is Unblockable, and so is Bunker Blaster...
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 208
2/7/2012 18:39:01   
goldslayer1
Member

@joe
yet cheapshot is deadlier and cheaper.
AQW Epic  Post #: 209
2/8/2012 1:25:12   
Remorse
Member

I think cheap shot shouldnt be based on a normal attack,
It should be more like bunker,plasma cannon.


It could be like fireball in the sence it improves with strength BUT not based on a normal attack so naturally this skill would be alot weaker and harder to abuse BUT it would also be unblockable.

Note: ALOT! weaker then fireball, in comparison of attack power it would be like plasma cannon/bunker buster, but imprive with strength.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 2/8/2012 1:26:27 >
Epic  Post #: 210
2/8/2012 1:59:32   
Wraith
Member
 

 Nerf BloodMage. Yep. You hear right.

I got friken two turned, and I have 30+ defenses. I don't see WHY they need a buff. When I switch over, I'll make it a point to not do NPCs and keep 90%.

BloodLust is OP. For BH, fine, but what does a Mage have to do with it? You can't make a build deal 40 damage a turn, heal a ton, AND have another heal. Then you get raged really fast, for 50 damage.

Removed the part directed at the forum staff. Please see your private messages. ~Ashari[b/]


< Message edited by Ashari -- 2/9/2012 2:21:42 >
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 211
2/8/2012 2:06:17   
Joe10112
Member

@^: I used to think Blood Mages were weak, like you (your thinking). But then I took an arrow to the knee a fireball to the face and a berzerker to the body.

Seriously. 2-3 turn kills, slightly OP there...120+ str and 120+ hp, it's pretty hard...
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 212
2/8/2012 2:21:54   
goldslayer1
Member

@joe
i 3 turn does builds as tlm. when they have energy armor.
and if they have physical then CH beats it easily.
AQW Epic  Post #: 213
2/8/2012 4:32:17   
Remorse
Member

^ Thats exactly the problem,

The blood mages build's only weakness is power abusive builds just like them.


Players are practically forced to make a pathetic quick killer effortless build just so we can beat them.....

Iam so sick of it.

The whole power build gernre needs to be nerfed! Or they need to be given counters other then luck.
Epic  Post #: 214
2/8/2012 6:49:53   
TurkishIncubus
Member

This game is Luck vs Luck, even if you buff-nerf all classes it still will be Luck vs Luck.

Even if no crit no block no defelct happened, if you use stun skill that means 30% you win 70% oponent win so it still Luck.
Epic  Post #: 215
2/8/2012 9:05:18   
Remorse
Member

^
It will always have a luck influence no matter what, simply because of starting turns.

BUT luck can be made less of an influence if balance changes focused on making more variety and supporting strategy builds rather then effortless power builds.


What I find odd is how the power abusers are always constantly complaining about luck influences but are less aware of the fact its their style of build which causes it to be bad FOR EVERYONE why? Because all builds have changed to be able to deal with power builds and that means high defences or burst damagae or both which will always be strongly countered with luck.


You also need to realise you can NEVER EVER have sucsesful effortless winning builds and pleasable luck factors, EVER!
Its one or the other.


The times when luck never bothers me at all regardless of the amount of blocks or crits I get agaisnt me is when I am fighting someone with the same style of strategic build. Becasue they arnt soley based on power rather out witting your opponent its easy to win without the burden of bad luck bringing you down, even with bad luck startegy build allow for you to make up for it with unique style.
Where as powerbuilds the main advanatge you get is starting and there is very limited stratigcal outwitting simply because it's far too predictable.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 2/8/2012 9:07:44 >
Epic  Post #: 216
2/8/2012 9:23:14   
TurkishIncubus
Member

^What you mean by power builds? is it just str abuse or Max supercharge also count as power build?

cause i aslo dont see any strategy on Max super charge, the only thing they do attack: malf-gun-aux-SC-gun-strike-aux , defense: If smoked-Def matrix , If malfed-Technician

ok maybe sometimes they can use bludgeon.



< Message edited by TurkishIncubus -- 2/8/2012 9:28:04 >
Epic  Post #: 217
2/8/2012 9:27:42   
Remorse
Member

^ Basically any build which forces players which arnt power builds to play defensive often extremely easy to use and effective because its hard to sucsefully pull of defensive strategies and out damagae them at the same time.

Persoanly I would classify supercharge build AS a powerbuild because versing them it often comes to the point were you have to make the decesion to play defensive heal sheild energy drain etc. which often still end you up dead because like what power builds are designed to do they dish out heavy dmagae trying to out damage this build while playing defensive is very difficult for most classes.

Alternatively you dont HAVE to play defensive but you have to have a powerbuild of your own and either force them to play defencive or simply out damaged them. Often causing luck to have HEAVY influences.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 2/8/2012 9:36:38 >
Epic  Post #: 218
2/8/2012 9:33:18   
TurkishIncubus
Member

^Thats right, If str CH starts the battle the only thing i can do is kill them before they hit massacre or hope for some blocks
Epic  Post #: 219
2/8/2012 9:35:08   
Remorse
Member

^ Exactly,

Some people look at that as just normal ED battles but perosnally I think its a sign of very BAD balance.
Epic  Post #: 220
2/8/2012 14:41:29   
Wootz
Member

A tank-DoT-Energy stealing-Strenght Cyber Hunter usually takes care of any abusive builds.
With Physical claws.

Honestly, I can't remember the last time I used a build as good as this.
AQW Epic  Post #: 221
2/8/2012 14:47:28   
Joe10112
Member

quote:

This game is Luck vs Luck, even if you buff-nerf all classes it still will be Luck vs Luck.

Even if no crit no block no defelct happened, if you use stun skill that means 30% you win 70% oponent win so it still Luck.


+1 for you good sir.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 222
2/9/2012 1:52:03   
Hun Kingq
Member

When I had defenses at 29-35 +9 +1, a high strength Blood mage with maxed fireball, without smoke got no higher then 37 damage with smoke 47 damage but with lower defenses and energy armor they get bigger damage.

Berzerker is one of the most blocked attacks in the game. If the Blood mage has an energy staff/sword and the opponent has an energy armor there is a 99% chance that the berzerker will be blocked same goes with the physical staff/sword. When I met a strength Blood mage in a 2vs2 and lost that battle because of the partner. I went and retrained, met that player again and demolished them.

So asking for a nerf on a class that has nothing to increase their power but stats alone or nothing to decrease the power of the opponent is asking too much on a class that was basically nerfed every update already or had skills taken away, that will not bring balance to the game or variety to one class.

When you meet this person again take a look at what type of staff they use and the sidarm, shoot take a screenshot of their stat page post it here, I can assure you many will see the weaknesses that is quite clear you can't see.
Epic  Post #: 223
2/9/2012 11:41:19   
Archlord Raistlin
Member
 
I can appreciate some of the comments on strategic play. It's vital and one of the best features of 2v2. Bloodmage CANNOT play strategically because they would not survive...they have none of the defensive capabilities, and if they try, there is no power left to do any damage to 35-40+ defenses, which are the norm now. Balance changes have left us no choice but to abandon defenses and go with strength. That's what you get when you balance a BATTLE MODE and not the CLASSES... You would think we should be able to choose any class, and with some skill, compete in any battle mode. Oh wait...it USED TO BE THAT WAY...

Really, is there any weakness to exploit in TLM/CH? Malf a CH or smoke a TLM and they STILL have more resist/defense than the average bloodmage. So for those of you who get randomly 2-hit by a bloodmage...it's not our fault...what other choice have we been given? We are all looking forward to getting some strategy back into the bloodmage class.
Post #: 224
2/9/2012 14:43:26   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

^ Thats exactly the problem,

The blood mages build's only weakness is power abusive builds just like them.


Players are practically forced to make a pathetic quick killer effortless build just so we can beat them.....

Iam so sick of it.

The whole power build gernre needs to be nerfed! Or they need to be given counters other then luck.

thats not the only thing that can beat it.
any focus build can beat it aswell. (with good physical offense against energy armored BM. or good energy offense against the physical armor BM.)

right now my CH build is made to survive massacre after going second and beating enemy with massacre the turn after.
its worked great so far. but sadly i been getting so much bad luck and it lowered the effectiveness of this build.

the only thing that pisses me off is when the enemy with lower dex, blocks malf and static. forcing me to go full defensive or just exit the match right there. as i would have no hope of winning.

basically right now strategy wont work if luck is involved.
for tlm i made a very good build (required alot of skills to use) that could counter heavy negative luck factors.
and would average 95%+ on bad days and 98%-99% on good days. (sometimes even 100%. and i remember getting 500 wins in a day at 98%+ several times.)

i would compare it to the old heal loop mage, because this build was very capable.
but it wasn't just about the build as i had seen several other friends copy it and not get the same results.
the build required alot of right timing and very precise strategy.
but if used right, it could counter almost anything.

and im glad that others haven't been able to use it as effectively as i was able to (only turkishincubus was able to use it like i did). (even tho it was copied several times.) it didn't go anywhere for others because they couldn't use strategy.

but sadly tho it was a pointless nerf to tlm. and that build. (even today tho that build can somewhat hit 95% on maybe average days.)
AQW Epic  Post #: 225
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