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RE: Second-Turn Compensation?

 
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2/7/2012 9:54:32   
Remorse
Member

I Would like to point out my created feature which solves this problem (and many others) called "meditation" and is similar to rage as it is a feature fillable per battle with a bar.

Meditations tackles at lessoning or solving the following problems:
-Starting advantage
-Blocks
-Stuns
-lagged skipped turns!
-Extreme power builds
-Buff the use of sheilds, but not tanks
-Gives an advanatge to those who take time off attacking to setup up startegy, because currently turns are too valuable to afford not to attack.

What does it do?
Meditation is a fillable bar like rage but instead of an armour ignoring attack you instead get a bonus NONattack into a turn which would normally be just an attack.
For example: Player A smokes player B, Payer B already has a full meditiaon bar so in that turn players B uses defence matrix, THEN auxillary in the same turn.
(NOTE: must start with a complette non attack skill of otherwise classfied as turn which would NOT give rage (healing, boosters sheilds etc.) then must be followed with an attack skill or a skill which gives rage)

How to fill the meditiation bar? The medition bar has a total of 100 points to fill.
-If you dont start, in other words are second ( or in 2v2 both the team members on the side that starts second) then you automatically get half a meditation bar full. (50 points)
-If you use turn which DOES NOT GIVE RAGE, then it will infact give meditaion by the same amount for any turn in this catagory, aproximtely 1/4 of a meditiaion bar per non rage giving turn.(25 points)
-When you are attacked, a small 10% of the total damage of the attack is given to meditation.( excludes defences) for example if a player uses a attack which deals 50 damage even though it may only hit 25 on you it excludes defences thus, 5 points of meditiaon are rewarded.
-When you are blocked, even though you get rage you also get 25 points to meditiaion.
-When you are stunned you also get 25 point to meditiaion.
-If you skipp a turn accidentally eg. due to lagg, then you get a complette full meditiaon bar (100 points)

The result?
Starting advanatge:
Players who start can use watever, but instead of being totally forced to playe defensive it is likely the second player will meditate early giving them the oportunity to sheild/heal and attack in the same turn thus gaining on lost ground.

Blocks:
Often very game changing because they are basically lost turns, with meditiaon you cant get your attack turns back but at least you can heal etc. to make up for lost ground.

Stuns:
Same as blocks, meditation helps make up for lost ground.

Countering extreme power builds:
These power builds will likely give their player medition alot and early because bonuses are given based on total attack power and it is likely the oppnent will need to recover with sheilds/healing etc. which are much more easy to pull of and not lose ground with meditiaion thus making these builds counterable.

Buff of sheilds:
Sheilding is highly underpowered now with the new bot and this will hopefully make it more worthwhile to take turns to sheeld etc.

Lagg and skipped turns:
Which this feature it allows players who may have accidentally lost a turn to regain it to a degree in the sence they get a full medition bar to use allowing them to get a free nonattack turn.

Advanatge to the non attack based builds:
They are in obvious need of help because they are not classed as tanks nor extreme dmagae dealers which leads to exreme complications because turns are too precious to use sheildsing, helaing, energy drianing these days to do it alot, thus many creative builds have been destoryed and hopefully this could reivivie them.

More variety!:
With this it is possible many new interesting builds will arise for example the old field commander build would be alot more usefull and could be used in very tactical deadly combos combined with meditiaon.
and rage!


Side notes:
-Meditation IS stackable with rage, so if you get both full rage bar and a full meditate bar in the same turn you could heal then use a rage attack for example.
-Bar should be placed above or beow rage bar (close to it)
-If you get a full mediation bar but do not want to use it simply use any attack (rage giving skill) at it will be postponed like how rage is postponed when a NONattack skill is used.

Hope you like my idea,
Thanks for readong Remorse Less.







< Message edited by Remorse -- 2/7/2012 10:14:21 >
Epic  Post #: 26
2/7/2012 10:21:22   
BlueKatz
Member

I thought a member of Balance team already mentioned this once and I like that idea (I thought of that year ago... I always like Rage): They gonna give Rage advantage for people who go last.

I mean it's so much easier to balance that than giving bonus to this and that, if we reduce Crit, block or whatever we will see even more Tank build

This also prevent people who have like 20 Support go first having huge advantage... really because the player with High Support go last will have HUGE Rage advantage
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 27
2/7/2012 10:27:16   
xxmirxx
Member
 

They only got two working on balance team ashri and wiseman test team isn't response for being apart of balance team. If you ask me that seriously doesn't make sence.
AQ Epic  Post #: 28
2/7/2012 10:43:27   
Cookielord12
Member

I would welcome a change because im constantly on the defensive when str opponent gets first turn
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 29
2/7/2012 10:46:11   
midnight assassin
Member

What about if nerfs only apply during the 3rd turn of the player who started it in round 1?

< Message edited by midnight assassin -- 2/7/2012 10:52:18 >
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 30
2/7/2012 15:00:15   
Joe10112
Member

I like Remorse's idea of the Meditation factor. Would really help, for compensation.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 31
2/7/2012 15:30:16   
Sparticus
Member

Going second makes me mad so why doesn't it add to the Rage bar when I have to go second? That way I have a head start to filling my Rage meter. I get hit and that makes me Rage more, I hit a tank and that makes me Rage even more, they hit me really hard and that makes me Rage more.

Just give the player who starts second a fixed Rage bonus. Make is LVL appropriate meaning, someone 5 LVLs lower going first gives the least or no bonus but equal level player going fist gives the other player the greatest bonus.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 32
2/7/2012 15:33:00   
Elf Priest JZaanu
Constructive!


For me, being a passive defensive player, I prefer to go 2nd. It gives me opportunity to strategize game play. I also know being 2nd, I must compensate rage from my opponent. In most/all forms of competition, I never heard of a 2nd turn compensation.

AQW Epic  Post #: 33
2/7/2012 17:02:56   
Fay Beeee
Member

So then, just a passing thought. What if it is YOU that is going 2nd?
Are you prepared to accept the proposals that you have suggested. Because they will be then against you?

I also thought that there was something in place (not sure what - sorry) that gave a chance of going 1st BUT not more than a chance.

Will this make players change their builds to try and go 2nd? If so, then you will surely be back where you started.

But saying that. Nice to see good ideas. :)

< Message edited by Fay Beeee -- 2/9/2012 5:06:51 >


_____________________________

Epic  Post #: 34
2/7/2012 19:24:49   
Infinity Everlasting
Member

the most of this problem can be solved simply by having a warm-up on ALL skills for the very first turn, leaving the player that starts first only be able to use their primary/gun/zooka, however for skills like emp, then first turn event helps.. A LOT

< Message edited by Infinity Everlasting -- 2/7/2012 19:25:43 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 35
2/7/2012 20:42:01   
One Winged Angel1357
Member


This really is a problem being an offensive player of very low support, Somewhere in the 40's, I tend to go second out of the low support and the RNG hate that goes hand and hand with that.

Now the thing is you would have to find a middle ground between punishing someone for having RNG favor them and making the second person OP'ed just to make up for the fact that they "have" to play defensive.

Personally I like Remorse's idea but it will most likely take some time to complete but give the Balance and testers something fun to work on to get it in the right setting to give Defensive players the same bonus that offensive players get from rage. Only issue I see would be a possible abuse of the skip turn=full meditation bar. When you use meditation does it have to be an Aux attack or is it whatever offensive move you choose it to be? Because if you can use any offensive an STR spammer merc(this is just an example that popped into my head while playing on my merc) could skip round one and use a high level field commander so a non offensive move and zerker or a gun to do a good amount of damage.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 36
2/7/2012 23:36:25   
Xxbbooxx
Member

The person that starts second could have either a -5 energy reduction on their first turn. Or they could have a +5% or +10% boost to all defensive skills on the second players first turn.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 37
2/8/2012 1:06:33   
Remorse
Member

@ joe,

Thanks for liking my idea :)

Alot of people still dont realise that it solves most of the problems that are raised here for example.

Sparticus mentioned he does not like the fact tanks get rage just as quick or the fact player that start with get a big rage bonus.

With meditation any time you are not getting rage you would be getting meditation as a back up, tanks rage just as quick because they dont use turns to sheild etc. or heal as early as the others giving them rage just as quick which mkaes no sence because they shouldnt get it quick, WITH meditation everytime you sheild/heal which makes your rage gain slower and gives the tank the chance to build rage faster YOU are getting a compensation with meditiation allowing you to use a non rage giving attack amd a normal attack hence which gives rage thus cacthing on the ground you lose when using these non rage giving turns which would mean overall with meditiation you will rage quicker against tanks and they wont have any rage building speed bonus.

Plus meditation also means you will rage then normally quicker if you are second because you will most likely meditate earlier thus gaining rage in what would of been a non rage giving turn thus getting rage quicker.

Why just give them bonus rage when a feature like this solves soo much more.



< Message edited by Remorse -- 2/8/2012 1:09:09 >
Epic  Post #: 38
2/8/2012 8:05:50   
sotsemod
Member

At least, there should be no crits on the first turn!

This wouldnt solve the whole problem, but it would do a lot of good, because when your opponent crits on the first turn you rarely have a chance to win
AQW Epic  Post #: 39
2/8/2012 8:23:01   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


^

What's the difference between your opponent critting on the first turn and him critting on any other turn?
Post #: 40
2/8/2012 8:53:57   
Remorse
Member

^ Crits on starting turns often determine how a player MUST play during the battle and thats usally defensive or recovery.


Crits in the middle of battle make less impact because you could already have the upperhand in other words force the other player to play defensive before hand thus crits wont be so game decieding if it equals the battle, on the other hand crits during the middle COULD infact be worse if you were forced to play defensive and then were also critted but that is a problem much harder to solve.
Hope this makes sence plus I agree to non starting crits if it is the only idea they could possibly accept but I hope they consider my idea.

Remorse Less.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 2/8/2012 8:55:11 >
Epic  Post #: 41
2/8/2012 18:14:45   
  RabbleFroth
Member

I wonder if making Level / Support have a larger impact on someone going first would help. If you place points into Support, you're sacrificing strict defense and (in most cases) offensive ability. I think that going first SHOULD have some advantage since you are able to stat for it, but ONLY if you must make a sacrifice somewhere else in order to do so. That said, the bonus Rage idea isn't too bad either, but is somewhat technically challenging to do.
Post #: 42
2/8/2012 18:51:19   
Goony
Constructive!


^I wonder if making some slight changes to the way rage is calculated would help!

Now:
An attacker's Rage Meter increases by 100% of the amount of damage reduced as a result of the defender's defense or resistance.
A defender's Rage Meter increases by 33% of the total damage received.

Instead:
An attacker's Rage Meter increases by 50% of the amount of damage reduced as a result of the defender's defense or resistance.
A defender's Rage Meter increases by 75% of the total damage received.

The above figures are meant to show how you could change it, but the figures could be changed in testing. What I would like to see is the defender/second turn player/player being hurt get a bigger boost to rage than the attacker...

Without trial I am not sure how it would effect the game, but if you could look at maybe adjusting the rage increase to advantage the defender it might be a step in the right direction ;)

Edit: Also, how about some triggers that increase rage build. Below 50 health rage is modified by 1.25 and below 25 health rage is modified by 1.5. This would need to be applied after the attackers damage was calculated, not sure if that is technically possible.

Anyway, just some ideas to toss around ;)

Edit 2: About increasing lower levels effect on who goes 1st especially in relation to 2v2. I have noticed that giving the lowest player the 1st turn doesn't always advantage the correct team. For example the teams may be 29/34 vs 30/31 which is 63 vs 61. Having the lowest level go 1st actually advantages the strongest team... Just a thought to keep in mind :p


< Message edited by Goony -- 2/8/2012 20:18:04 >
Epic  Post #: 43
2/8/2012 23:13:21   
BlueKatz
Member

^ No.. no way. That's crazy. If you read my post in Balance thread you should notice that Rage is meant to make Damage equal with Defend/Resistance because Def/Res increase faster than Damage. What you do is completely ruined (or even flip) the whole purpose of Rage
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 44
2/9/2012 0:00:20   
Goony
Constructive!


^The discussion is about how to reduce 1st turn advantage.

The purpose of rage:

quote:

The Rage Meter was designed as a counter for highly-defensive builds (tanks) as well as a counter to players that repeatedly consume packs while waiting to use their ultimate skill.


quote:

Def/Res increase faster than Damage


So true! What happens when we are level 40? Will diminishing returns cover that? If not then damage will rule and 1st turn will become more important!

The figures I used were an example of what they could do, without testing they are not worth anything ;)
Epic  Post #: 45
2/9/2012 0:06:52   
Remorse
Member

I think goonys idea is brillaint.
I have sugested something similar myself but goonys idea is much simpilar.



The reason why its a good idea Is because TANKS rage just as quick as most non power abusing builds... which makes no sence because they should not rage as quick.

If goonys idea was used, what will happen is people agisnt TANKS will rage quicker like they should! because tanks often deal high dmagae out aswel hence why they often rage the same time even earlier.

AND!!
It will also mean versing power abusive builds they will be less likly to rage early often before the person defending even gets a chance to attack....

BUT Power abusive build will rage as quick as they usally do against high tanks because like I say tanks deal high dmagae aswell and they have high defence.


Rage should be more about getting gained on damgae tacken not on damgae dealt perfect idea goonayI hope it is chosen.
Remorse Less.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 2/9/2012 0:10:26 >
Epic  Post #: 46
2/9/2012 0:27:44   
BlueKatz
Member

What that doesn't make any sense...

If follow Goony formula
Say with example of 14+34 Attack vs 20+9 Def
Attacker gain: 29/2 ~ 15 Rage
Defender gain: 19x3/4 ~ 15 Rage

Compare to Default Formula
Attacker gain: 29 Rage
Defender gain: 7 Rage

Note: Attack have 14 Damage is equal with Defend 20 stat wise...

That doesn't make any sense. Goony make Defender gain double Rage while Attacker gain only half Rage!
This while doesn't give Last turn player much use while completely kick the whole balance away as long as battle go
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 47
2/9/2012 0:35:46   
Goony
Constructive!


The figures were an example, but the rage build could be tuned a bit better as shown with your example using the numbers I put in;)


< Message edited by Goony -- 2/9/2012 0:40:28 >
Epic  Post #: 48
2/9/2012 0:40:05   
Remorse
Member

@blue kat
Yes but thats one particualr turn,
Over the enitre game rage will start doing what its ment to as I sugested above.


For example over two turns with this forumla someone who abuses power Vs. normal build the normal build would proberly rage much closer to around the same time as the power abuser which solves th Oped combinations which end in the power abuser raging before the other plyer even gets an attack in or barley gets attacks in.

And if you take this formula and take a TANK versus a Normal build then the result will be the normal build should rage earlier.
Rather now tanks rage around the same time because they force the other player to heal/sheild etc and they deal heavy dmagae making their rage often the same or even faster then a normal build which is all wrong.


Yes it seems odd in your example but thats how all new things seem and I think with porper testing and adjusting a change like theis would be very beneficial to balance.

Remorse Less.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 2/9/2012 0:42:45 >
Epic  Post #: 49
2/9/2012 16:25:36   
Lord Machaar
Member

Since starting first related to how much support you got... And they count that as an Effect of Support which is another Effect just depending on "Luck"
I think Starting first is not related to Support... If you started First in 10 battles you will start Second in the next 10 other Battles (Without counting NPCs cause they always start first) So i think They stop saying that Starting first is an effect of "Support" and make it fair and square (10battles you start first - other next 10 battles you start second)... and give support another Effect...
and this is just an Example and you could of Improve it as you want (Like if you meet same Player 2times - 1st Time (if you had more support you will start first ) - 2nd time you start second... And if you had less support Opposite... Even if you battle the same player today and you start first and the 2nd battle was in the next year you will still start second...
and there is another Example if you just want to Stick this Effect with "Support" you just need to give the players who have more support an advantage over players who have less support...
and if you make this then i will call it a Truly Effect of Support unlike others which MOST of the time depend on "Luck"... and i know there is no more Support builds (Since Field Medic is no more improved with it) so Officially when this balance came alive "Support Builds Goes Rare"...

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 2/9/2012 16:34:15 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 50
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