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RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread

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3/6/2012 13:53:29   
Ranloth
Banned


 @Void
It's pretty much obvious everyone will go for removing but some CHs. Plasma + Dex build gives too much synergy and if they badly want it to stay then say goodbye to Malf which will really weaken a class much further than old skill-tree. Is there really a poll needed? Old skill tree > after removing Malf (power-wise) so all it takes is to put old skills back and let the class be until Balance Tracker shows if any class has problems or something.
AQ Epic  Post #: 476
3/6/2012 13:58:42   
Stabilis
Member

I suggest a poll if balance team thinks otherwise.

AQ Epic  Post #: 477
3/6/2012 14:00:23   
Ranloth
Banned


 Ah overall yes, it'd be nice.
I suggested about a month or so ago to make a pool for every Balance Change we get - perhaps like get a choice what we'd like to happen, so what could be nerfed/buffed/removed and so on as it'd give better in-sight into what we want and give us a choice as well of what we think is the best.
AQ Epic  Post #: 478
3/6/2012 14:03:31   
IsaiahtheMage
Member

I don't see the problem if they remove their malf. @Turkish That would be OP having 10% def and res ignore for all your attacks as a passive imagine that combined with smoke/malf and cheap shot or masscre. Its better if it improved like HA. 1% def/res ignore for lvl 1 and so on until lvl 10 when its 5% res and def ignore. That would be better since its a passive.
AQW Epic  Post #: 479
3/6/2012 14:11:38   
Stabilis
Member

I like the system of VETO.

quote:

A constitutional right to reject a decision or proposal made by a law-making body: "a veto over appointments to key posts".


Right before BT sends their decisions to the admin (well... only Titan and Rabblefroth), BT grants us insight to their proposals. Each individual idea is in point form. Players access a poling system and decide if a point should be VETOED. If the majority of a vote is against the point, the democracy VETOES the point.

Their will be NO sovereignty. Therefor there will be no players able to VETO an entire point alone.

A referendum.
AQ Epic  Post #: 480
3/6/2012 14:24:15   
Hun Kingq
Member

With 140 health 100 energy max Plasma cannon, max Blood Lust, and max Plasma rain, level 2 deadly aim, the highest I
could get with technology was 104 (32-39 -2). 120 health 114 (34-41 -1) tech. 110 health
35-42. 100 health 124 (36-44). 90 health (37-45 +1). 80 health (38-46 +1). 70 health (39-47+1)

With one account to get tech 158 (44-53 +1) and above with meeting the requirement of skills without max deadly aim
with the Delta Sword, the Big 50 Aux, the stun blaster, Tesla P/E armor and have enough energy for both Plasma Cannon and Plasma
Rain the build has to look like this:
54
78
30+17
34+12
94+64
33+22

1 -1 -1
10 -10 -10
0 -1 -0
0 - 0 -2

As you can see with the build above I would not even make it to round 2 to use Plasma Rain so I had to adjust it with enough health and energy and max Deadly Aim to get some kind of damage in the first turn without using energy.

Tech 130: (38-46 +1)

Tact merc resistance (24-29 +9 +1) plasma rain damage highest of 5 rounds 51 critical damage
51
The bottom 3 are from lower level players with resistance of (20-24 +1)
36
37
38

If a tact mer/merc has support at 135: (28-34) max artillery and my dex was at 62: (20-24 +9 +1) that tact merc/merc would get 55+ total damage. 1 multi starts at 0, the next starts at 22, and the third starts at 28 so truly how can the damage be equal if it improves with each stat at different levels. As the tact merc has reroute and the Cyber Hunter have static charge they can use their multi over and over again as with the Blood Mage with no energy regain we could use our multi at max only once or get EMP or Atom smashed, unless energy is high enough, none at all. If you still believe that the damage is the same on all multis each class do a multi build and see for yourself and see which one has the highest kill rate.

With requirement on weapons and skills I was limited to how high I could put the tech stat so just as I am paying to play and many others are paying to play and have to deal with weapons with requirements why should the Alpha and Beta weapons, that got 10 enhancement slots each, be exempt from getting requirements.

Things have to be balanced out from weapons to skill damage but everyone also has to take into consideration your defense and resistance and why you allow the opponent to still have enough energy to do their 2nd skill attack when you have an energy steal skill. So realized that skill don't have to be on max with the case of the Hunter and merc classes but with the tech mage Assimilation has to improve to over ride the amount of energy it gives back due to reroute.

Blood Lust percentage is too low and no one should have to be forced to put it on max to get any benefit from it.
Epic  Post #: 481
3/6/2012 14:26:35   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 The problem with a voting system is that the OPd will want to be OPd and will vote against it. And if people had the option to not get nerfed, then people would take it no doubt at all. More would class change and abuse builds knowing they won't be nerfed if they say they don't want to be. This leaves the power of the classes in the majority of the forum population(despite there being a couple thousand others who don't use the forums). We have what, 20 people posting at most in the average week in ED sections? How many do we have on just one server? 1000+. Why on earth should 11 players who want to be OPd have to make hundreds of players suffer because they voted for something? Balance doesn't work by voting. It works by getting rid of the power imbalances. Voting is biased, numbers aren't. Balance is about numbers, not common opinion.

@isiahah Is there any difference if everyone uses 5 focus builds if bot specials change or if it doesn't change and people still abuse bots with strength builds? Either way, people still use the same build. All my change will do is lower the effectiveness of bot abilities for people who don't have Focus and prefer to spend their points into doing huge damage and preventing players from defending themselves at the same time.

< Message edited by The ND Mallet Guy -- 3/6/2012 14:52:48 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 482
3/6/2012 17:18:55   
Hun Kingq
Member

One thing I noticed about wrist blades is over 90% do not have a support requirement, why is that?

A Level 31 Cyber hunter in 2vs2 had Axes of Fury, Beta Blaster, Beta Bazooka and because the Beta weapons have no requirements and 10 enhancement slots and no support requirement on the primary, she was able to have an extreme amount of Dex getting the same damage or more from her multi as a level 34 cyber hunter which she was able to take away 44 points of energy as well. She still got 25+ damage on me but my partner a level 30 blood mage dead instantly.

For 2vs2 a player that has no energy regain should be prevented from getting EMP twice or EMP than Atom smashed in the same match. Limit those high energy stealing skills to be used only once per battle.
Epic  Post #: 483
3/6/2012 18:37:49   
Stabilis
Member

@ND Mallet,

quote:

The problem with a voting system is that the OPd will want to be OPd and will vote against it. And if people had the option to not get nerfed, then people would take it no doubt at all.


The pride of selfishness. How will I be able to handle that? Hmm...

Options:

i) Allow only a balanced number of players from each class (10 Mercenaries, 10 Tech Mages, etc etc) to participate in the voting, the UN is made up of groups in collective agreements, such as Canada normally supporting the U.S.A., or China normally supporting Russia, there is no definite sovereignty to oppose each and every motive, groups have different opinions from each other. In this way majorities or sovereigns do not mass control the system.

ii) Sacrifice. Take a cookie and lose a finger. If a player opts to VETO any change at all, they apply -1 VETO towards the next vote. These negative counters accumulate for the next poll, the number of usable VETOES becomes 10 - the number of used VETOES from the last vote. Example1: Each poll consists of 10 bullet point balance proposals. Starting VETOES = 10. Player1 VETOES removing reroute from TacM. VETO count = 9. Upon the next vote, Player1 is permitted 9 VETOES. Example2: Each poll consists of 10 bullet point balance proposals. Starting VETOES = 10. Player1 VETOES 6 balance changes. VETO count = 9. Upon the next vote, Player1 is permitted 4 VETOES.

iii) Dedicate each balance change to one class at a time. No description needed. The majority of players will therefor be unlikely to VETO every change.

quote:

This leaves the power of the classes in the majority of the forum population(despite there being a couple thousand others who don't use the forums). We have what, 20 people posting at most in the average week in ED sections? How many do we have on just one server? 1000+. Why on earth should 11 players who want to be OPd have to make hundreds of players suffer because they voted for something?


I wrote my poll system on my phone during a spare period. I did not get to finish everything. If I had to choose, I would allow the entire game community to participate... in and out of the forum. I would give the ability to vote ONLY to the level cap players. Alternate accounts would have been abused for mass voting. Also, crackdown on alternate accounts for cheating, unjust sportmanship, and manipulating the system. This includes placing multiple accounts into a Faction or dummying or abusive behaviour in general.

quote:

Balance doesn't work by voting.


You are right, Vladimir Putin gives your comment a +1.

quote:

It works by getting rid of the power imbalances.


Vladimir didn't give your comment a +1, but I did.

quote:

Voting is biased, numbers aren't.


The work-related mortality rate (if you can find this statistical data I will be much obliged to thank you) in Canada before labour unions began was quite high because of the obligation to perform life-threatening tasks for factory labourers who had to crawl into furnaces or work at extreme heights without proper safety measures. Unions formed to protect workers by initiating strikes to combat the supremacy of the employers who controlled their pay, work hours, and duties. Voting may sometimes be biased, but granting the power unto one sovereignty is biased as well. Joseph Stalin became the leader of the Soviet Union after Vladimir Lenin died. He alone had control over the motherland. Because of his actions, at least 20, 000, 000 people both from his own country and enemies had died in WW2. This was not intentional, this is with tactics at fault. There is a little reminder of history for you.

quote:

Balance is about numbers, not common opinion.


Numbers? I digress.

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 3/6/2012 18:38:58 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 484
3/6/2012 18:57:20   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 @void
1. So it's really a 1 against 5 vote when it comes to nerfing or buffing a class then. 1 class group against the other 5. This would make things very biased or force cooperation(but considering everyone would be so nerf vote happy the first few polls that they might hold grudges for far too long to repair and thus leave bias).
2. So what happens when people shoot down some ideas that would work to balance the classes properly and are unable to shoot down the changes that will destroy the class? Is it a "Too bad, you should've thought ahead with absolutely no foresight that this would be happening" moment? The smart voters wouldn't ever veto a lesser idea that would partially nerf them while the overzealous(and by far more numerous) would vote against the first several nerfs until they realize that they're running out of votes to save up if something terrible does pop up in voting.
3. Again refer to part 1. 1 to 5 vote for stopping nerfs and receiving a buff.
4. There is no logical way to prevent cheating the system if you implement it in game since people will buy other's votes or manipulate them with factions(assuming you go by IP address). Also, some of the smartest players in the game aren't level cap yet. Being high level doesn't mean you know the game. I've fought full varium lvl 34s on my lvl 30 non varium mage and came out on top because they were just terrible at build making.
5. I see you using the statistics of injuries and death in work related accidents to bring about a proper change. To simplify it down for everyone who reads this, you used numbers to prove something was bad and needed changing. If it weren't for those numbers, would the average person have cared enough to vote against it? Before numbers: "The workplace is fine, we only lost 15 this year. I've heard most factories lose less than us." After numbers: "We lose how many employees across the country every year?! Something needs changed!" The numbers didn't lie. Loads of people were dying because of unsafe conditions. Before that, people just took it in stride and thought they were the odd ones out and lost more than average or just never grasped just how many were lost a year.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 485
3/6/2012 20:00:29   
ngshuyi94
Member

Making this a little big and red which will hopefully catch the mod's attention.

This is a talk about CH, the stronger class atm.

Basically, plasma armor is gonna get removed from CH (probably) to keep it balanced with the other classes. Fellow people in the forum also suggest for static charge to be restored to the old 44%. This means that CH will basically be restored to its old self.

I agree on the part that plasma armor should be remove to make things more balanced.

However, i have something to say about static charge.

Static charge is basically the core skill of the CH class. The CH class is heavily dependent on it. Block and ur screwed. Therefore, i suggest for an overhaul for the static charge skill to basically make it a more reliable skill for the CH class. Reliable being blocked and u still stand a chance. Moreover i feel that since CH are very dependent on static charge, many could not avoid but to add more strength to get a higher energy return. This destroys the creativity in the CH class.

Basically, my idea is to turn static charge into a passive skill and make it into a skill that works for every attack u use. This means the static charge could work every turn and regardless or whether u use aux or gun or whatsoever, its effect is implied. This basically makes static charge a more reliable skill to use because CH mainly depend on it, and it will also provide more creativeness within the class.

Of course, to make it balanced, the % that it gives should also be decreased. By what amount i do not know, its up for the balance team to decide (should this be implemented). My idea is to make it in the region of 23% at max, same as that of bloodlust.

Any suggestions?

_____________________________

Seven Stars - Seven Heaven
My Character Webpage! =D
http://epicduel.artix.com/charpage.asp?id=ngshuyi

Epic  Post #: 486
3/6/2012 20:22:26   
Joe10112
Member

@^: GREAT IDEA! (SERIOUSLY!)

I'd like a Blood Lust, except like Energy Lust in which it's BL except it works for getting back Energy!

I think that would work and should be implmented-it makes sense, and is very much reliable.

Oh, and all the "IT'S A PASSIVE OH NOES!" you can take out Shadow Arts and replace with something. It's too much of a luck skill anyway.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 487
3/6/2012 20:52:14   
Sageofpeace
Member

every tlm is using poison builds how is that creative?everything the balance team do is just wrong

this is stupid im getting beat by player that suk at 2vs2 like 5000 wins and 4000 loses

< Message edited by Sageofpeace -- 3/6/2012 20:58:17 >
Post #: 488
3/6/2012 21:38:01   
Hun Kingq
Member

The balance team is doing the best job they can with limited staff. I have seen to many players of both merc class with no Artillery strike, the strongest multi in the game. I have seen too many (1vs1 builds) strength builds and poison builds. That player must not suk at 2vs2 just because you lost. Do ever realize why some players have such high lost counts, multiple reasons, runners after runners, inexperience partners, massive amounts of connection losses, and skipped turns.

Out of 13 2vs2 I won 12 Sometimes I just do 5 and win 5. One weekend in two days time I had about 200 connection lost. You don't know what I do I 1vs1, do you?
I am not on the forum 24/7 sometimes I am not on it for weeks at a time. So now it is quite clear you were referring to me and got mad because you lost. I have warned everyone that I was going with a high tech build so they could get the damage results from the Plasma rain so tell everyone was it 55 or above and if it was was it because of the low resistance of you or your partner or was it 60+.

Be original find your own build then come back and talk about balance.

< Message edited by Hun Kingq -- 3/6/2012 22:03:36 >
Epic  Post #: 489
3/6/2012 21:42:48   
Sageofpeace
Member

^ i don't need a 24/7 forum talker and 1vs1 npc player to tell me to find a build when you don't know nothing about 2vs2
Post #: 490
3/6/2012 22:21:43   
Lord Areswe
Member

ngshuyi94
Would it still be calculated as if the opponent had no resistance or more like reroute resistance included?
AQ MQ Epic  Post #: 491
3/6/2012 22:26:08   
ngshuyi94
Member

^ 100% defense/resistance ignore, just like how it works now, just that its in a passive form.
Epic  Post #: 492
3/6/2012 22:43:07   
Remorse
Member

^ I support but I think that the skill should have a maximum return.

So if a CH wanted to go all out on power they wont have the advantage of never having unsufeciant enery.

Like for example no more then 15 energy can be returned in one attack.


Perhaps a limit like this could be added to BL so that these skills dont become Oped if powerbuilds are abused.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 3/6/2012 22:44:19 >
Epic  Post #: 493
3/6/2012 22:47:48   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 @remorse You have bigger problems to worry about with BL if someone gets 15 health back from it. Like, I don't know, the fact that someone just blasted you with 60+ damage in one move. That's not saying I don't agree with a limit but 15 back is unrealistically high.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 494
3/6/2012 22:55:31   
Remorse
Member

^ Exactly its not intended to be a nerf,

Perhaps the amount could be lowered a bit but I dont wont to ruin variety here.
I think there are better ways to control oped builds then always adding limits.

But a limit here would help in things such as 2v2 when Multies and blood lust become a bit overpowered and I imagine some kind of energy returning passive would be the same.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 3/6/2012 22:56:29 >
Epic  Post #: 495
3/6/2012 23:03:02   
Luna_moonraider
Member

quote:

merc class with no Artillery strike, the strongest multi in the game

@ hun

totally wrong facts all multi are the the same now arty does not have its 20% ignore and all multi improve with 4 stat at first and 5 stat at the end. yes support cant be nerfed by anything except delta curse but there is assault bot to debuff and there is reflex boost for bh and technician for both mage and blood mage.

quote:

That player must not suk at 2vs2 just because you lost. Do ever realize why some players have such high lost counts, multiple reasons, runners after runners, inexperience partners, massive amounts of connection losses, and skipped turns.


yeah 2v2 is a random place when u get partners which are hopeless. the balance team will balance 2v2 1 day but idk when still waiting i m sure most 2v2 all timers are waiting too.balance takes time so chill.

@Shu Yi

nice idea but str build will be a little oped because they can mass 2 times or maybe more and tanks might be able to heal loop. question: does the passive work for just strike or it works for zooka,bot and gun too? i would say to make it less op the passive should just work on strike only.
AQW Epic  Post #: 496
3/6/2012 23:09:18   
ngshuyi94
Member

^ Well it should work for every attack. If it works for strike only, CH will be forced to use strength build and it will limit variety and creativity.

If u fear that it becomes OPed, maybe 10% regain, lol, idk. The balance team knows what to do if it gets implemented.
Epic  Post #: 497
3/7/2012 0:21:55   
Hun Kingq
Member

Luna_moonraider, actually it was 10% and no not all the multis are the same, even when a player has low resistance and no energy armor I only get in the upper 30s
this is from epicduel wiki

Artillery Strike: Inflicts physical damage to all enemies.
· Energy Required:
o Level 1: 14(1) 26(2)
o Level 2: 16(1) 28(2)
o Level 3: 18(1) 30(2)
o Level 4: 20(1) 32(2)
o Level 5: 22(1) 34(2)
o Level 6: 24(1) 36(2)
o Level 7: 26(1) 38(2)
o Level 8: 28(1) 40(2)
o Level 9: 30(1) 42(2)
o Level 10: 32(1) 44(2)
· Weapon Required: None
· Stat Required: None
· Level Required: 5
· Improves With: Support (+1 damage at 22 Support; +1 damage per 4 Support after)
· Warm Up: 1
· Cool Down: 2
Multi-Shot: Fires an energy cannon damaging all enemy targets.
o Level 1: 14 (1) 26 (2)
o Level 2: 16 (1) 28 (2)
o Level 3: 18 (1) 30 (2)
o Level 4: 20 (1) 32 (2)
o Level 5: 22 (1) 34 (2)
o Level 6: 24 (1) 36 (2)
o Level 7: 26 (1) 38 (2)
o Level 8: 28 (1) 40 (2)
o Level 9: 30 (1) 42 (2)
o Level 10: 32 (1) 44 (2)
· Weapon Required: None
· Stat: None
· Level Required: 5
· Improves With: Dexterity (+1 damage per 4 Dexterity)
· Warm Up: 1
· Cool Down: 2
Plasma Rain: Rains energy damage down upon all members of the enemy team. Improves with technology.
· Energy Required:
o Level 1: 14 (1) 26 (2)
o Level 2: 16 (1) 28 (2)
o Level 3: 18 (1) 30 (2)
o Level 4: 20 (1) 32 (2)
o Level 5: 22 (1) 34 (2)
o Level 6: 24 (1) 36 (2)
o Level 7: 26 (1) 38 (2)
o Level 8: 28 (1) 40 (2)
o Level 9: 30 (1) 40 (2)
o Level 10: 32 (1) 44 (2)
· Weapon Required: Staff or Sword
· Stat Required: None
· Level Required: 5
· Improves With: Technology (+1 damage at 28 Technology; +1 damage per 4 Technology after)
· Warm Up: 1
· Cool Down: 2
Where each one starts improving at needs to be looked at again
The highest I could get tech at is 135: (39-47 +1) with 90 health and 80 energy (if I don't have it this high all what players will do is use EMP or Atom smasher there goes the multi, plasma cannon or both) so prove to everyone with the highest support you get and artillery strike at max tell us you can't get 55+ I put max reflex boost on a fellow Blood Mage and as if it was not there dead instantly and she still had 54 health, the tact merc laugh when I activated it, so he knew.

I was responding to that one player that could not accept he lost the match fair and square. No one knows what I will do or who I will attack first or when I will use what skill. One group of players thought I was using a strength build so one intimidated me I laugh because it was my partner with a strength build I used misdirection making think I was trying to take out the higher level player but when I rage Plasma cannon to the lower level then took down the health of the higher level I got killed as I anticipated then my partner finished the job. I don't use the same tactics over and over again I might use this one or another. If I did not have so many connection losses skipped turns and runners I would have less than 3000 losses and over 7000 wins but that is part of 2vs2 that I come to accept but do not like.
Epic  Post #: 498
3/7/2012 0:44:18   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 @hun What do you consider low resistance, 30+? If you have 135 tech and you're using Max Plasma Rain you should be having it up in the 70's range. I'm looking at a TM right now and his Maxed Rain is 53 and he only has 52 tech. Also, he's a level 22 as well. Since Rain improves by 4 tech each damage, you should have roughly 73 damage before resistance is calculated. Probably more since skills also improve as you level up. I'm a lvl 33 BM with 62 tech and my Plasma Rain would be at 57 damage when Maxed. Add tech until I have 135 and my Rain will be doing 75 damage before resistance. Did you forget to mention your enemy had an energy shield on or are you just making numbers up to get buffed?
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 499
3/7/2012 1:06:31   
PivotalDisorder
Member

@ND MALLET: Hun Kingq always makes stuff up to back his case. he has this complex that everything is bugged or broken for BMs
and that they are being unfairly targeted by the staff. serious paranoid delusions. I remember when he didn't have enough energy
to cast Plasma rain on 2nd turn and he made a topic complaining that the skill was bugged.
Post #: 500
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