RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread


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3/10/2012 19:40:41

Arevero
Member

Then that is a good case, i look forward into new ultimate skills on classes in the future, and hopefully all classes are equal by then, especially hunters, since our ultimate skill is less exciting as SC and SS. Since SS and SC have abilities with it(rage takeaway, 30% heal) I hope hunters would get something like that too. But they should add it quickly due to the release of the BioBorg.

Post #: 601

3/10/2012 19:44:00

Ranloth
Banned

I think excluding Massacre from the Bot would be best idea and quickest for now. Making new Ultimate skill for BHs would take much longer as it's coding, animation to make, damage ranges, effects and then testing.
Idea is good as it'd still fit the whole Hunter-theme and be useful at the same time. Unique as well. :D

@below
Support could work and make Tank build for BHs, as CHs will have their own skill someday as well (all evolved will, different to basic classes). Energy Shield + Reflex + Ultimate Skill + Bloodlust + Heal would make a good Tank build, utilise the Bots fairly well (any, so Assault/Azrael/Bio for their effects) could give them quite an aid and Ultimate Skill to help them. So Str build would lose Massacre, but there's choice of Poison build or SA for them that works with BL.

< Message edited by Trans -- 3/10/2012 19:53:42 >

Epic

Post #: 602

3/10/2012 19:47:46

drinde
Member

YESH!

Make a Support Ultimate Skill for BHs and CHs. :D

Epic

Post #: 603

3/10/2012 19:55:07

Mr. Black OP
Member

^
It will make CH OP, malfunction which improves with support will lower the players resistance then the ultimate (if energy) will do more damage. Not to mention an increased chance of critical strikes. They will also have a powerful DM, combined with plasma armor will make them a super tank, they won't worry about blocking because SA (which has a support requirement) could easily be maxed out. Maxed out SA will make stunning easier, not to mention there will be such a huge gap between their support and their enemy's support that it would stun commonly, their stun is also energy based, which also gains damage from their malfunction. Finally no class has a skill which reduces support so unlike massacre/surgical strike/supercharge there is no way to weaken it unless you get incredibly lucky with delta weapons.

Tech based will make BH OP, max BL for sure, smoke which improves with tech will make BH's smoke incredibly powerful, they will have less of a need for strength so they could put some of it into support giving them max SA. Max SA and a -45 smoke will make BH incredibly difficult to hit. It will also give them an incredible EMP. Back to the smoke, let's say the ultimate is a physical attack, then what? You have a guy which can lower your DEF by 15 points and do an attack guaranteed to hit incredibly high. (less OP than Support CH as above but still powerful)

Dexterity based is kind of obvious for CH, imagine those super tank CH with a powerful ultimate.

Strength is what we have now.

< Message edited by zman 2 -- 3/10/2012 20:04:09 >

Epic	Post #: 604

3/10/2012 19:57:08

drinde
Member

^

Hmm. Estimate:

01-01-01
10-10-02
00-01-00
10-00-00

They wouldn't have that much stat points.

Make the skill for BHs, and a Tech Final for CHs?

Epic

Post #: 605

3/10/2012 20:02:18

Joe10112
Member

I'm still with the idea of Static Charge being a passive Energy-Regain blood lust...

And Massacre does get affected by Thorns? Not...fair...

AQW

Epic

Post #: 606

3/10/2012 20:03:47

ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!

Like I said in the DNs. Not very often does a Massacre fail to kill. The few times it does, aren't enough to consider the bot gamebreaking against BHs.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 607

3/10/2012 20:05:28

Ranloth
Banned

@zman2
CHs will have their own Ultimate Skill at some point, as well as all evolved classes. So Massacre might stay unique for BHs only, while CHs get their own skill.
What I suggested is different approach for BH's Ultimate Skill which would work as I said, with Str improvements but not as far so it won't be abused along with Primary+Gun+BloodLust. ^^

Epic

Post #: 608

3/10/2012 20:09:09

Mr. Black OP
Member

@ND
Massacre lets say does 60 damage, you survive, the BH just took around 14-15 damage (BL takes some of it off) while the CH took 30 damage. So far every time I have been in that scenario I have lost or just barely won because I blocked or deflected.
^
I agree with you on that.
@drinde
Possibly, but like I said a support based ultimate cannot be nerfed by other players, surgical strike can be nerfed by malfunction, massacre by intimidate, and supercharge by smoke screen. As you can see only delta items (which are rare) would affect the ultimate, and its only a small chance that it actually will and -20 is quite as devastating as -40 or so.

< Message edited by zman 2 -- 3/10/2012 20:32:35 >

Epic	Post #: 609

3/10/2012 20:12:11

ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!

@zman I was under the impression that the enemy took full damage while you took half of it. So if you hit 60 he would lose 60 while you lost 30. If it does reduce damage then it may be a problem.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 610

3/10/2012 20:14:39

drinde
Member

Nuo Nuo Nuo Nuo Nuo!

BH MUST GET SUPPORT ULTIMA!

/support rant

:P

If it were a support ultimate, BHs would have to decide between using a STR Build or a Support build, since STR-Mass wouldn't work anymore.

If we give SS for CHs, they may be able to be nerfed, but cutting away 50% Rage + Plasma Armor? Not UP at ALL.

Epic

Post #: 611

3/10/2012 20:29:25

Mr. Black OP
Member

@ND
It doesn't reduce damage, I was referring to bloodlust reducing some of the damage dealt to the BH.
Usually STR BH or CH don't have high defenses, so losing any amount of health could be devastating.
Lets say there are 2 players.
Player 1(BH): Use bot special
Player 2 (CH): Uses malfunction and does 15 damage, takes 8
Player 1: Smokes for 10 damage
Player 2: Cheapshots for 30 damage, takes 15
Player 1: guns for 20 damage
Player 2: strikes for 25, loses 13
Player 1: heals (+40)
Player 2:masses for 50 damage, loses 25
At this point player 1 has take 80 damage (including heal which removes some) so lets say he has 15 left if he uses , has lost 91 damage (61 from just the special), player 1 has the next move and has to hit 9. (110 health build)
You may think you know close game, but do not forget that player 1, a BH has blood lust, so its more like 22 or 21 health and it is his turn. Who wins?
This is why I'm against this bot, it only targets STR CH and BH, while STR BM are hardly affected, since they could just firebolt, gun, bezerk and by the time they reach bezerk their enemy is already dead for the most part and its not devastating health loss cause they have bloodlust also.
Thanks for reading all this.

Bloodlust actually does not reduce the damage taken, if somebody is using the bot then BL has no impact on the game at all, I just got it, used the special, took 26 damage, my enemey has max BL so in theory he should have taken 8 damage but he took 13.

So now BH lost a passive when it is used. Ignore any parts I mention about BH/BM not being affected as much from the bot because of BL.

< Message edited by zman 2 -- 3/10/2012 20:41:25 >

Epic	Post #: 612

3/10/2012 20:55:34

kittycat
Member

In a sense, There is a new OP build on the rise for Mages, which is the Caster build. it is notably know for high HP and High EP, and high damage. How interesting would that be? It could even defeat a Cyber Hunter.

Post #: 613

3/10/2012 21:13:39

drodrae
Member

Thorns doesn't activate Reroute. My Str Mage is dead. XD
@Kittycat agreed. Casters deal insane dmg, but only in bursts. Str builds still outdamage them over time. Casters are currently the last non var wall for mages. :D

AQW

Epic

Post #: 614

3/10/2012 21:22:35

liy010
Member

I'd say make a new bot which has the special "Shock Aura" which is the same as thorns but for Non-Melee attacks

Any tips on countering the new bot as a CH?

AQW

Epic

Post #: 615

3/10/2012 22:10:21

Arevero
Member

So far the OP bot is still Azrael, it even affects the BioBorg's thorn skill which makes enemies take damage. If u use Azrael on that affect, it will go down. AZRAEL IS OP, MUST BE DEALT WITH! And if u have bloodlust, well then the BIOBORG effect doesn't work at all!

Azrael is too powerful, hope i made a point. Never seen another bot takeaway completely the effect of another bot O_O

Post #: 616

3/10/2012 23:50:25

drinde
Member

So, for Balance...

Could we turn Multi-Shot physical for BH and CH?

No more OP Malf-Multi... :3

Epic

Post #: 617

3/10/2012 23:51:38

Mr. Black OP
Member

^
Smoke-multi for bh? Back to square one.

Epic	Post #: 618

3/10/2012 23:53:06

drinde
Member

Um. Smoke takes TECH, Multi takes DEX.

Or we could trade Multi Shot for Artillery Strike with the Mercs. :3

Epic

Post #: 619

3/10/2012 23:53:16

Remorse
Member

^ Perhaps when the devs finally release new multies and supermoves for the evolved classes this problem will be tacken care of.

@ ND mallet,

I agree with you there, I think it is fair that masacre be effected by thorns.

Because masacre is easily the strongest super move, and for classes without energy drains it is EXTREMELY hard to counter them,

With thorns it means non energy drain classes can counter them and I think that is fair if you wont tactical /staregy based builds to become usable agian.

Plus it is not that much of a disadvanatge, if you time masacre with the right timing you could get it inbetween the thorns, or you could ensure that they have low enough healtht to die before you use masacre.

What it does is forces STR builds to think, and if both sides have to think then the victor would be the player will more often be the smarter/more strategical and expereinced player AND that is what the game should be like.

If STR build were smart I would sugest to them of thinking of way to get around thorns, for example perhaps investing just a few point into support making the aux decent in attack, so you can gun and aux, and posibly inveting a few skill points in a strategical skill such as sheilds and emp to use during the time throns are active.

Thorns are great if it breaks the STR build abailty to invet all ther points into plain attacking skills and have no disadvanatge from it.
Afterall thanks to azreal the STR build didnt have to worry about countering those with sheilds, so I think making them think how to counter throns is a fair substitute.

IMO, BHs DONT need a buff, what needs to happen is STR blood mages need a nerf so that BH dont think they should be at the extreme power standard as BMs, BHs are at about the right standard for having a STR build, and BMs are over the top.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 3/11/2012 0:05:50 >

Epic	Post #: 620

3/10/2012 23:57:53

drinde
Member

But BHs need a buff!

:'O

xP

quote:

BH MUST GET SUPPORT ULTIMA!

/support rant

:P

If it were a support ultimate, BHs would have to decide between using a STR Build or a Support build, since STR-Mass wouldn't work anymore.

If we give SS for CHs, they may be able to be nerfed, but cutting away 50% Rage + Plasma Armor? Not UP at ALL.

Maybe?

< Message edited by drinde -- 3/10/2012 23:58:52 >

Epic

Post #: 621

3/11/2012 0:07:19

Remorse
Member

^ massacre still works the only diffrence is STR BH have to THINK!

And I think that all STR builds should be braught to this same standard.

Epic	Post #: 622

3/11/2012 0:09:21

drinde
Member

Uh. So are you agreeing? ._.

_____________________________

Epic

Post #: 623

3/11/2012 0:23:41

Arevero
Member

The bounty buff can wait, I have fought a lot of them, and they aren't as easy as u think they are. We should focus on the bigger picture, REDUCE AZRAEL EFFECT AND MAKE MASSACRE FAIR FOR PLAYERS WHO HAVE BIOBORG. If the balance team/staff make new ultimate skills for each class, i'm sure bounty buff would be dealt with, but so far the effect of BioBorg on ONLY massacre is incredibly unfair. Hunters' massacre is already balanced, since it's powerful than others' ultima, but doesn't add extra effects. But it's now going to be thrown back at Hunters' face when we use it. And please, reduce Azrael effect, it is a powerful bot, too powerful in fact since it can reduce BioBorg's special ability.

And i don't like the CH+SS effect. It makes us even more Merc-ish since we have Plasma Armor. Horrible idea for us as hunters. And about Support Ultima, it might work, but i suggest the BT(balance team) to test it out first, hopefully new ultimas for each class would be implemented soon.

Post #: 624

3/11/2012 0:31:03

Remorse
Member

All balance Hope from this release has just been destroyed,

When I discovered that azreal bot can reduce thorns AND now azreal bot can be use more then once per battle...

Yep that right now you basically cant use anything to counter STR builds.....

Epic	Post #: 625

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