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3/11/2012 16:58:09   
  Zyrain
The Arcane


 It's been happening for a while now, but the activity within the CA forum is declining.
Though I may never have been the best artist, I still loved the CA community and enjoyed participating in it. I want to see the forum returned to it's former glory.
I have some suggestions which may help increase the activity as well as become a better organised forum through the discussions and inspiration from discussions in #Gallery on IRC, and from the previous CA suggestion thread.


1. The design and layout of Creative Arts

Currently, I feel the layout of CA is over-complicated and doesn't need so many boards, a much simpler design would be easier to navigate and less confusing.
If even just one of these suggestions are approved, I'd really hope that the Artistic Responses forum is deleted and that comments and updates are just posted in the original art work thread, in The Showcase.
Personally, I'd rather the design of CA to be very similar to this:

    Creative Arts

  • The Exhibit Hall
    • The Showcase
    • Showcase Showdown!
    • The Cafe

  • Resource Room
    • Artistic Requests
    • Help & Support
    • Guides & Tutorials

2. Thread suggestions within Creative Arts

  • As I briefly mentioned before, instead of having the art threads in The Showcase and comment threads in Artistic Responses, I speak for pretty much everyone I've talked to when I suggest that these forums are combined into The Showcase and that comments are posted in the original art threads.
  • Event threads, much like the current 2012 Worm Project. Approved events are stickied in The Showcase so that they are more likely to be seen and gain more contributors. I imagine that events would occur monthly and/or annually. These would help keep the activity high within the forum by keeping the community interested and something fun and new to do each month/year.
  • An event set-up thread, similar to the Tournament set-up thread, so that events can be officially approved by staff before being set up by either the staff or the original designer.
  • A constructive criticism request thread. Some artists seek CC, though in the current state of CA it can be hard to gain. What I am suggesting is that in the artists' own art work thread they will receive comments and maybe a little CC. In this request thread, artists can request CC and would work much like this thread -- in each post the person CCs the person above's request, then add their own request. It's very similar to The Chopping Block, though less extreme critique and simple CC.


    Obviously, I understand that people may disagree with my suggestions and prefer their own, which I would love to see posted. I just want to see something change to improve the current Creative Arts forum.
    • AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 1
    3/11/2012 17:08:48   
    PyroPuppy
    Adorable!


    		 As a dedicated member if the CA, and as one who found inspiration in there, I highly support those ideas. Yet, I prefer the following forum structure:

    • The Exhibit Hall

      • The Showcase
      • Showcase Showdown!

    • The Cafe
    • Resource Room

      • Artistic Requests
      • Help & Support
      • Guides & Tutorials



    The reason for taking out the Cafe from The Exhibit Hall is pretty simple. The Cafe is all about discussion on topic that are generally related to art and not on specific showcase. Therefore, it should be in a subforum of it's own, rather than part of The Exhibit Hall.
    Also, I want to explain why moving the Artistic Requests section into Resource Room is reasonable. The idea behind the Artistic Requests forum is to ask artists to make you pieces in general, and not specifically signatures and avatars. Since you use the art that was made for you, no matter what is the form of using it I would classify it as a "Resource", and therefore Artistic Requests should be part of the Resource Room.

    < Message edited by PyroPuppy -- 3/11/2012 17:09:16 >
    AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 2
    3/11/2012 17:20:40   
    Smalls
    Member

    		Those two have really covered all I need to say about the layout so there's one thing that I need to say.
    It's been said already that AA isn't coming back. However, having a system like the RP board would be beneficial for the CA.
    The RP section works well, with a section for approved role players and then other role players. If we could have two sections like that in the CA I think it would be wonderful. If we got those, everyone would still be able to post in at least one part of the CA and get their feedback there and then other artists who want an area with more in depth C/C and/or a bit of higher level artists would be able to work in that area.
    The idea would be, mainly like the old gallery, to have people who have the C/C skills to correctly give it able to work with others like that. If you've noticed, the amount of activity within the CA has drastically gone down after the removal of the AAs and the C/C rule.
    Obviously, the artists would be able to move between gallery sections and be able to have a gallery in the approved section and a gallery in the everyone section.
    DF  Post #: 3
    3/12/2012 18:14:24   
    superjars
    Member

    		We've gone down the road of this conversation several times already, and while the input is appreciated, it was taken into account the last time it was brought up.

    We've been working on a format that we hope will make many people happy and inspire some additional interest and have taken much of this into consideration while doing so. Things that have been said in the past on this subject still stand and I am working diligently to make sure that all the elements that can make CA amazing are in place. All of these just take time. Thanks!
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 4
    3/13/2012 1:39:17   
    PyroPuppy
    Adorable!
    quote:

    All of these just take time

    The question is, for how long?
    If we compare the activity of the CA now, and the activity of the CA two years ago, it is pretty much died.
    While changing the format of the forums can take a lot of time and isn't possible right now, other suggestions can easily happen like a stickied event thread, where you can announce on new events, sticking previous official events thread the like Worm Project, and making a CnC thread similar to the Chop Block. Those three suggestions can happen in few minutes and I believe will help to raise the activity, especially an event management thread.
    Also, some words on the CnC thread.
    Currently, the amount of CnC comments is going slowly down. While I agree that having comments like "Wow, you are really good!" is much better than no comments at all, an artist would want from time to time a nice review on his art.
    Therefore, the CnC thread. It will provide a small yet steady stream of great comments. In the previous scenario, the said artist will be able to post his piece in the thread, and know he will get a CnC in a matter of hours or a couple of days, while if he posted the same piece in his gallery he might not get any comment at all.
    AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 5
    3/13/2012 3:38:09   
    Winged_Destiny
    Member

    		I feel I should join in on this since I wander around the Creative Arts Board a whole lot.
    quote:

    If we compare the activity of the CA now, and the activity of the CA two years ago, it is pretty much died.

    I don't think this forum is the only forum that Creative activities have been declining. I've been on a couple of forums and GFXing everywhere has slowly come to halt. So there's no stopping or starting activity up. The only way is to get the interests of others and have them take interest -- which was what the moderators said back then when they modified the Creative Boards. They opened up the Galleries so it no longer needs to be approved so more and more people can join in on the Arts conversations; then that backfired for some reason. Because some artists back then worked hard to open up an approved gallery, they feel the challenge was taken away, so that was a lost of inspiration to continue making arts.
    quote:

    stickied event thread

    Let's go back to the topic of activity, when there's already less activity going on, even having an event isn't going to jumpstart activities at all. So I still think it's meaningless as an attempt to jumpstart activity. But yes, having stickied event threads, staff-approved of course, is always good, so it immediately catches anyone's attention if they haven't noticed it already.
    But let's speak more on the reality of things here. I noticed that there's a lack of Constructive Criticism mainly in this forum, others lacked it as well but not as much compared to this forum. I don't think reconstructing the Creative Arts Forum Board is going to help, at the most maybe a little; but at the very least, it won't make a difference. Most, if not all, Artists make arts because of their passion for it. But passion alone won't push me far; when that happens, I will turn to rely on inspiration/motivations. The main source, in my opinion, are Constructive Criticisms. Without any criticisms at all, I won't improve. I appreciate all the "I love your piece!" "Awesome!" "Keep up the great work!" comments, but really it doesn't help me. Then I start thinking, "Eh, what the heck? Why do I still even post up my artwork if all people are going to do is look at it and put up all those same comments, or they just look and walk away?" It's like people have stopped wanting to help others improve or something, just an assumption.
    So in my opinion, unless Criticisms start coming back, I don't think activity is going to start in any form. I don't speak for anyone but myself. And to be quite honest, I'm a Tagger/Signature maker/GFXer and not an Artistic Drawer or Flasher. So if I look at it this way, I don't fit at all into this forum because signatures aren't catchy in this forum because it's more about the Flashes and drawings that people make and hoped to be put in-games.
    To be completely honest, only reason why I'm still sticking around is to make GFX for people in the Artistic Request sub-forum. I still find joy in making them even if there's no criticisms thrown at me. I've tried putting some up in my gallery, very little criticisms. Completely lost interest in the Showcase/Artistic Responses.
    So to sum up my whole post, Criticism is the main problem why there's a lack of activity. Find a way to fix it and activity just might start up again. Then again, criticism is up to the individual. But you can't really shove anything down someone's throat and expect them to be satisfied with it. In other words, you can't force/coerce criticism to come back.
    Post #: 6
    3/13/2012 12:04:52   
    Eukara Vox
    Legendary AdventureGuide!
    quote:

    So if I look at it this way, I don't fit at all into this forum because signatures aren't catchy in this forum because it's more about the Flashes and drawings that people make and hoped to be put in-games.


    I think this is a big part of what's going on. When I was active in CA... believe it or not, it wasn't about what you could get in game, or what you could copy and make better... it was about having fun, showing off your talent in all mediums and sharing. I was a comic poster, mostly fanfic types, but I made comics. I wasn't good at original art, making sigs, but I loved making comics. And there were many of us that did this. Original art, handdrawn or other, was big too. With the advent of the "slight possibility" that art could be put in game, it seems everyone went from let's just have fun, to competing to see who could get in game. When this started to become popular, this is when I dropped from the CA. I knew I didn't have the talent to do art good enough for that and most people who commented began to only comment on game potential. Even those who would get great C&C towards signatures and such were getting less.

    quote:

    I don't think this forum is the only forum that Creative activities have been declining.

    L&L is going through the same thing. Two years ago, things changed. I won't go into detail because recounting what that era was like is rather painful. But, L&L went through a lull and it was the first board that decided to forgo the whole "Approved" thing. What this did was open it up and yes, it still isn't the hopping place it was 2 years ago, but we have faithful steady fanfic writers. I would love to see more "regular" fiction posted, but I will take what I get.

    We even tried events. But, events do not always equal greater attention and activity. My events were even announced forum wide. Across the board, on many websites that are game related, the creative boards are declining. It's a bit upsetting for someone who loves creative works, no matter if it is visual or written.



    Please understand that the head mods of the forums aren't just sitting, twiddling their thumbs and laughing at your apparent "futility" in getting things done. We are trying just as hard as you to get everyone active and going. We sit and talk about our forums, what is working,w hat isn't, what can be done, what should and what isn't even feasible. Superjars and I are good friends and we talk about the state of L&L and CA all the time. You aren't ignored and you aren't being neglected. Just trying to figure out stuff is our primary objective. The fact we even have sections like CA is a massive privilege. I know you've probably heard that, but know how true it is.

    And those who complain about time frames, you have to remember that we are all at the mercy of each other's schedules and each other's abilities, Admin, Mod and AK alike. Please just have patience.
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 7
    3/13/2012 16:17:28   
    PyroPuppy
    Adorable!


    		 I have to agree with Eukara on the first part commenting on Winged_Destiny post, and add some more notes.
    When I joined the community of the CA, there were a lot of taggers, and signature makers. In fact, I started out as one of those. As Eukara mentions, the CA forum's methods of art have nothing to do with AE's games. You are a member of the Creative Art section in order to show your creativity in forms of art, no matter what the form is.
    On top of this, I'll have to disagree a bit with the conclusion of your post.
    If we compare a forum with low amount of comments, all of them are CnC to a forum which has a lot of short, and maybe a bit immature comments, I believe the second one will remain active while the first will slowly fade away.
    As an artist, I prefer a constructive criticism over any other kind of comment, yet I would prefer a short "your art is really great" over nothing at all. I won't improve, but I will know people are looking at my art and are liking it, which will inspire me to keep with the making of art. It is important to encourage constructive criticism, but if there are no active members, there is no point in encouraging it.
    Assuming the forum is slowly fading away and don't have a lot of members, making that small amount of members to comment in a CnC format will help, but it won't bring new members. On top of that, making the small amount of members comment like a double amount of members simply will take the fun out of the gallery.
    Edit: I also want to provide a link to Jecht Dracopyre's post, which describes in detail why CnC is not a crucial part of the board's activity: http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=19609311
    If as an artist you still wish to get a nice CnC easily, Zyrain suggested having a CnC thread similar to the Chopping Block. I believe it will provide the criticism in the quality you search for, and won't require high activity in the board.

    As for events, I would have to mention that simply having them can't do any harm. I agree that "events do not always equal greater attention and activity", but making them will keep the current members of the gallery active and will provide a generally fun method to share art between as. For an example, live drawings. If the gallery will gather 2-3 artists every month to make live drawing, the only thing it can do is raise the activity and to be fun, which is exactly what I want to get from those events.

    Last, I wanted to thank you for taking your time and really comment. I know the amount of time the admins have isn't much, and not a single minute is being wasted, but it is a bit frustrating for us to see our favorite section slowly fading away.

    < Message edited by PyroPuppy -- 3/13/2012 17:06:43 >
    AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 8
    3/15/2012 1:43:55   
    random fun 12
    Member

    		To those of you saying that no-one takes interest, I have to disagree. Many people look at this thread, and look at the art in here. But since they don't have Flash and can't draw very well, they look at the few GFX/tag makers like Winged_Destiny. They often want to learn how to make them, and while some have come to me to ask how to make them, the others usually just turn away because they don't think anyone can help them. Even the two that I have taught in tag and sig-making have lost interest and found other forums more interesting because they were built solely for the use of tags and GFXing. If we could start a new thread for beginners, and sticky it then we'd end up with something like the STO [Student and Teacher Organization] which Zodiak had started before but had left as unfinished, back then I remember that the forum was far more active than nowadays, and that some students from that thread are still here today like Womba and xxShadowHunterxx (used to be known as Kristeen). If we want to attract some new blood for our CA section, then we need to be able to teach them, not just say, "Here's the CA Section, use Gimp or PhotoShop to make a sig, have fun now, bye!"
    DF AQW  Post #: 9
    3/15/2012 12:34:02   
    Therril Oreb
    Legendary AdventureGuide!


    		 if you wish to learn people how to use GIMP, PS, Flash, make a tutorial about it. Guides and Tutorials this forum section is made to teach people. So for that matter there are no problems to teach someone. The person just has to look for a guide he can use.
    AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 10
    3/15/2012 13:35:29   
    random fun 12
    Member

    		Therril Oreb: Perhaps, but that area is cluttered, and some don't know what GIMP is let alone how to make a decent sig because they look at tutorials that are too advanced or too complex. All I'm saying is that with the STO thread being revived, people can be taken through it step by step, instead of struggling through it.
    DF AQW  Post #: 11
    3/15/2012 13:37:06   
    Winged_Destiny
    Member

    		But tutorials aren't exactly teaching. From my experience, tutorials do little teaching. All a tutorial does is it helps show how the person came up with their final outcome. Let's take for example, "Apply the wave filter" or "Smudge your signature" -- in those two examples it teaches nothing. It merely tells the reader that there's such a feature and it's what the maker used to get its outcome. And so having a Mentor walking you through the basics to get you started is probably a better start than working off of tutorials.

    And that's what the STO was for. I remember back when I didn't know how to make a good sig, I would always attempt to apply as a student, in the end, I never applied.

    Thing is that "Art" is all about Creativity; and we all have Creativity in us. The hard part is to draw that Creativity out into a piece of artwork. I don't know about this forum, but in other forums I've been in, Creativity is always being supported no matter what form it is. When someone wants to give up, we encourage them -- no false hopes. I feel that's slowly disappearing in this forum.
    And so to reply to Random's post about "Interest", Support does have a role in gaining/keeping interest in a type of art. But what's most important is their "resolve". When the going gets rough, are they just going to drop because it's too hard? Any type of art eventually gets harder and harder. And I have seen too many people drop because of reasons like "I can't draw equal proportions with realistic anatomy." or "I can't do animations in Flash and coding is just too much work for my brain." or "Signatures are too complicated."

    From what I can see though, is that Artists who were active in the past has moved on with their life and gained something more beneficial to them. When that happens, they have less and less time to be on forum, making art to show-off.

    But what I really want to see, are the CA Reform Staff's thoughts on all of this. They've told us a lot of suggestions are being considered, but it was in general terms. Never have I seen any staff consult with their forum members and come to a compromise; I know it creates complications but sharing ideas doesn't always turn out to be a bad thing.
    Post #: 12
    3/15/2012 13:59:57   
      Zyrain
    The Arcane


    		 Maybe poor quality tutorials aren't helpful, but I've always been able to follow tutorials and feel proud of my piece afterwards. I can assure you that nearly all the tutorials are of high quality and only a handful may be a little poor, as I went through each guide to make an index.

    The STO was just as useful, but guides are sufficient enough. Though it's not like a new STO can't be created if you feel it was more beneficial to the learning artists. When I started in CA, I used both and found that the tutorials and guides were much more useful.

    On your last point, about the CA staff's thoughts, much of the discussion about CA suggestions initially takes place in #Gallery on IRC with CA members and staff, and is in fact, where this suggestion thread originates from.
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 13
    3/16/2012 12:36:58   
    random fun 12
    Member

    quote:

    Any type of art eventually gets harder and harder. And I have seen too many people drop because of reasons like "I can't draw equal proportions with realistic anatomy." or "I can't do animations in Flash and coding is just too much work for my brain." or "Signatures are too complicated."


    The two people that I've taught both thought this at first. One said and I qoute, "hey random, I was wonder if you could help me learn sig-making. I looked at the guides but all they do is tell me what to do, not where it is. So if you could just clarify some things for me that'd be great. Thanks in advance if you decide to accept." Since I started showing him how to smudge, blur, dodge, etc. he understood the tutorials very well. This meant that they actually became useful. What we need is a personal teacher someone who can carefully guide them and clarify things. If you're going to point out the Sig-maker's dictionary thread, I'm going to refute that by saying that it isn't useful. When a new sig-maker uses it they try to cram everything in their head at once and they eventually forget some things. If a teacher was showing them the ropes then the could show them some examples and so on to help them get used to that technique; then for all the next sigs, the teacher would ask the student to use some of the previous techniques learned before to apply them to practice. Through this they can be taught sig-making in an orderly, easier and less chaotic way.
    DF AQW  Post #: 14
    3/16/2012 12:41:42   
    Therril Oreb
    Legendary AdventureGuide!


    		 Another solution for teaching someone personnaly is via chats.
    There are a lot of websites that have chat rooms (both private and public ones) where you can talk.

    If you put up a post in the guides and tutorials stating that if someone PM's you asking for help, you can set up a date and time and meet in a chatroom and talk things out.
    You can add people to the list whom can also teach (or teach in more specific things) and you get a whole network
    AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 15
    3/16/2012 12:50:48   
    random fun 12
    Member

    		Here's a suggestion: We can start a new STO thread in the cafe, but we don't sticky it. Therefore, if it turns out great, we can sticky and continue it. If it turns out bad then you can delete it after the required time of inactivity.
    DF AQW  Post #: 16
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