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3/27/2012 11:31:59   
Ranloth
Banned


Because they actually exist outside of CHs? Sorry but look at the bigger picture, not a small one. Boosters are to provide you additional aid in battle, not restrict you. Heal is already lower than FM's and you use a turn on it, so why restrict it even more?
AQ Epic  Post #: 226
3/27/2012 11:36:48   
Stabilis
Member

I see a pretty big issue here, Field Medic is a default skill for ALL players. If in the event that boosters cancel out field medic, ALL players are compromised the ability to defend, any battle could last less 10 turns by default. The main players who win, the only people who can overcome the loss of healing, are players with Bloodlust while Rerouters do not have a similar means to stay alive if boosters cancel Field Medic... even with full energy.

The solution is OK for tank builds, brick walls... who both do not have efficient skills whereas boosters provide a better backup than Field Medic.

But if we pay 60-70 credits for 2 boosters, I do not think it should mean that one of our skills gets nullified.
AQ Epic  Post #: 227
3/27/2012 11:40:15   
gangster a
Member

^ what about if it was reversed?
AQ MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 228
3/27/2012 11:46:18   
Stabilis
Member

You can look at it this way gangster,

if I had a 33% critical hit rate on my sword in a battle with another player... and I hit him a total of 3 times and did not get a critical hit...

if I had a 33% critical hit rate on my sword in a battle with another player... and I hit him a total of 300 times and did not get a critical hit...

which of the 2 sounds more like an emergency? Please remember that because results are random, you could win a million dollars on your first lottery ticket... or you could win five dollars on your thousandth ticket.

In a small discretion, do not play the lottery! It is evil!
AQ Epic  Post #: 229
3/27/2012 11:48:56   
Remorse
Member

How about DONT fix what isn't brocken,

Healing and boosters are NOT unbalanced, (SO DONT TOUCH THEM)

What is unbalanced is powerbuilds and some skill tree comobonations.


DONT destroy what isnt brocken,

ED have already made this mistake far too may times.

*cough* enhancements *cough* Passive armour + energy regain combo *cough* aussult bot* cough* azreal bot * cough*

Im not about to let them do it agian.




< Message edited by Remorse -- 3/27/2012 11:49:45 >
Epic  Post #: 230
3/27/2012 11:49:12   
Stabilis
Member

quote:

Gangster A said:

^ what about if it was reversed?


If upon using Field Medic, boosters were cancelled?

It does slow down healing, by forcing players to boost when they want to heal...

let me think about that. I can see loopholes where it does not affect the game much.

EDIT: REMORSE!!! I DID NOT SAY BOOSTERS WERE BAD!

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 3/27/2012 16:15:40 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 231
3/27/2012 11:51:14   
Remorse
Member

^ How is using boosters and healing a bad thing???


It only becomes bad when it is used by some Skill tree combos such as passive armour+energy regian classes.

BUT that means its the SKILL TREE's fault ,

SO agian DONT fix what isn't brocken.

Shadow arts dosn't need a buff.

What it needs is a change.

The problem is SA can be Oped or it can be Uped ,

Thats the thing it is FAR to variable.

It needs to be changed to be giving a definate bonus but not so much as a potential major bonus.


Perhaps change shadow arts to a castable sheild which while active reduces 30-60%(depending on level) of all incoming damage and does not give bonus rage.
Lasts say 3 turns and has a 4 turn cool down. PLUS while active you get a bonus 5% connectivity THAT GOES THROUGH THE MINUMUM Block % :O while the sheild is active.

So while the sheild is active, if you had a high dex gap then you are likely to have 100% connectivity rate BUT only while the sheild i active which keeps things fair.

Merged double post. ~TG

< Message edited by The Game -- 3/27/2012 19:48:12 >
Epic  Post #: 232
3/27/2012 12:42:30   
8x
Member

quote:

^ actually it does beacuse i tested it with max shadow arts and only got 9 blocks out of 20 battles what does that tell you
You should count how many times the opponents hit you, not the battles.
Epic  Post #: 233
3/27/2012 13:24:14   
Dreiko Shadrack
Member

Hmmm, does anyone else feel like early game mages (say 1 to 20) are extremely underpowered? or are they just very badly played? Of late in my new characters I've made note that pretty much all mages in the early stages of the game are exceedingly squishy and die easily to all other classes regardless of build.
Not proposing any changes at this moment, but this feels like an issue from my recent experiences beating on mages and being beat on as a mage.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 234
3/27/2012 13:28:49   
Stabilis
Member

Hey guys, when I get home I will show you all my opinion of how skill trees should look...

unfortunately, when I'm at school on my phone I don't have easy access to easy drafting or modelling programs.

Unless you want me to draw everything by finger.

I will not let you down!
AQ Epic  Post #: 235
3/27/2012 14:43:06   
rayniedays56
Member

Actually, whoever said that SA needs a buff is actually HALF correct. I used to have a 26-32 defense with Max SA and my Cyber blocked maybe 4 to 6 times in battle.

HOWEVER, I am now using an extreme dex with NO SA. I now, however, block nearly EVERY strike taken on me.


*in case you need to know, my defense is 35-42, so that should give a hint on my dex ;)*

I say that SA be increased by giving 15% more block in Battle, BUT it LOWERS that percentage ALSO if you have a huge DEX build, like me :)

Like say, it is at MAX 15% as long as the Defense is in the 20's range. However, as soon as the Defense hits 30-36 WITHOUT any armors, then it is drastically lowered. Meaning at 30-36 the SA is lowered 4% at max, at 31-37, it is lowered 7%, etc etc until at max it hits 5%, with some levels being the same they were. This WOULD help stop the extreme blocking, but it also will be negligable, because who needs SA when they have extreme dex?



EDIT*** Defense was wrong. Typo :) it said 32-42 when it was 35-42


< Message edited by rayniedays56 -- 3/27/2012 20:40:07 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 236
3/27/2012 15:15:55   
Stabilis
Member

Reserved!

-I will add a link to a reformatted skill trees design here-

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 3/27/2012 15:16:31 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 237
3/27/2012 15:43:17   
endtime
Member

I don't understand the logic of many players here. Most people say that they want luck to be less of a factor in the game, but then they turn around and say battles need to be shorter and boosters should be minimized. The funny thing is that the best way to decrease the impact of luck is to lengthen the battle because luck evens out in the long run (e.g. if you flip a coin 3 times, it isn't particularly hard to get all heads, but if you flip a coin a hundred times, it is very unlikely that you will get all heads, instead you should receive a rate approximately around the appropriate 50%). Therefore, to reflect the chances given by your stats better, battles should be longer and thus boosters should be promoted

< Message edited by endtime -- 3/27/2012 15:46:01 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 238
3/27/2012 15:56:35   
Nexus...
Member

^

This guy knows what he is talking about. Completely agree Endtime, well said.


Prophet
Epic  Post #: 239
3/27/2012 16:17:25   
Stabilis
Member

^ From Skyrim:

(your name is Prophet sooo)

"He is the harbringer of the endtimes!"
AQ Epic  Post #: 240
3/27/2012 16:34:07   
ScarletReaper
Member

Oh, that's what ya meant? I only see one problem with that. Juggernaut battles. Some people still need to heal after 2 boosters when twin bunkerbuster or plasmabolts are involved.


Also, put fieldmedic back like it was. Guess what will happen.....mercs and tacmercs could compete with cybers and bloodmages again! Would be more balanced than it is now.

Double posts merged. ~Practel

< Message edited by Mecha Mario -- 3/27/2012 17:07:14 >
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 241
3/27/2012 18:11:21   
Stabilis
Member

Here are my reordered skill trees.



Bounty Hunter Skill Tree

Mercenary Skill Tree

Tech Mage Skill Tree

Cyber Hunter Skill Tree

Tactical Mercenary Skill Tree

Blood Mage Skill Tree



Please note that I do not intend to change balance with the suggested skill trees, this is simply what I would recommend for having a clean PvP run from levels 1 through 34.
AQ Epic  Post #: 242
3/27/2012 18:42:34   
Cyberbeast10
Member

Why move passives to the starting levels? Under the techmage skill tree, the player will lose much of his beginner level power and have a practically useless Reroute. You also made a very repetitive order order of passives first; damage skill, buff/debuff (In merc), and stun in second tier; MP drain, shield/buff (In Merc), multi in third tier; and the up offensive moves up last.

This might help in high levels, but it will make the begginer levels monotone seeing as everyone has the same skills in more or less the same order.
AQW Epic  Post #: 243
3/27/2012 18:57:13   
  Battle Elf
has ten 1v1 wins


@DepressedVoid It doesn't make sense to have Deadly Aim a starting skills since most mages don't get sidearms till level +10.
AQW Epic  Post #: 244
3/27/2012 19:13:36   
Stabilis
Member

How I would manage skills (skill behaviour):


  1. No Limits

    • You know how you have to achieve skill 1 when you really want skill 2? I am suggesting to remove that, I can imagine that staff decided upon this type of limitation to stop skill abusers from absolute damage, but in the end, it really wastes skill points; coming from the perspective of someone who uses balanced build types and multiple skills.

  2. Level 1 Passive Skills

    • You may be thinking, why is this person suggesting a skill tree that is best for high levelled players while low levelled players have very few attacks to start with? Well, I have decided, passive skills are the most fundamental skills in all of EpicDuel, we may as well see just how well the skills perform when both may be maxed by level 19. I also suggest having low levelled players use high levelled passives because there are more options to experiment with stats to have players used to all kinds of build types. Strength, Dexterity, Technology, Support, and Focus, because passive skills are not picky that way, while attack skills and defence skills usually prefer a linear build type such as caster mages or power strikers.

  3. No Limits (Part II)

    • The next part of no limits is being able to retrain/level and be able to skip tiered skills and allocate points to any skill that is available by level (if you are a level 30 and you have not assigned any skill points while retraining, you may directly add points to Surgical Strike... the first tier MUST have at least 1 point each however). This kind of replaces no limits part I as a whole, but the reasoning is being able to have more freedom, promoting creative thinking. You can remove each of your skills

  4. Level 5 Stuns

    • You may be doubting my choice of placing stuns for low levelled players, but these will come in handy to battle track the power of stuns in battle and adjust them, as they lack attention. Stuns may help in ending low-levelled battles more quickly. I have also placed most of the weaker strikes in the second tier. This is to prepare for more advanced attacks as levels progress. Think of it like a chronological order.

  5. Level 10 AoE skills and EMP

    • You may be wondering why I placed very useful skills higher up at the third tier, level 10. I know that multi hit skills are very powerful and fairly imbalanced in low level 2v2. To prepare low levelled players for AoE, I have done 2 things, introduced an EMP at the same instance to provide players with a way to cancel most multi strikes more occurring. I have also placed AoEs at a higher level to prevent players from instant killing enemies in 2v2 from levels 5 through 15. There are now enough skills in an abundance to defend from such skills.

  6. Level 20 Destruction Skills

    • You may be confused as to why I had just named Ultimate attacks, poison, and very strong skills under the label of destruction skills. I have placed such skills at the top to prevent tactless skill exploits for low levelled players to instantly kill their enemies. That is the only reason, this is quite similar to the current skill sets.

  7. Orderly Skill Trees

    • You may also be wondering why I have been so linear in setting the skill trees. This is because, as although each class nearly has the same setup of skills to choose from, not all classes are balanced. By rendering similar skills with different effects by similar character levels, it is that much easier to manage class imbalances by looking at a working example. It is not necessary, however, to not be original. Create new skills, but please keep the minimum size of the skill trees at least 3 * 4 for diversity... but more importantly counters.


quote:

It doesn't make sense to have Deadly Aim a starting skills since most mages don't get sidearms till level +10.


Somewhat true, however, Deadly Aim is not as nice of a skill as it should be, it is the only passive skill requiring a specific weapon (Sidearm) to begin working. At the same time, Defense Matrix is not always a great skill either. At level 1 through 5, a Bounty Hunter may smoke a Tech Mage... and the Tech Mage will use Defense Matrix. Now even though the damage taken for the mage is now 3 instead of 12 for example, 3 health of a total of 45ish health is 15%. With the minimal damage meter, the hunter is still able to successively strike 15% of the mage's total health per turn, while the mage has lost a turn and 10ish energy in defending against a reasonably weak attack at low levels. You will notice balance SHIFT totally different ways from level 15 to 30, from when Mercenaries can fall from first place to almost dead last.

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 3/27/2012 19:47:46 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 245
3/27/2012 20:00:03   
Cyberbeast10
Member

quote:

No Limits


You know how you have to achieve skill 1 when you really want skill 2? I am suggesting to remove that, I can imagine that staff decided upon this type of limitation to stop skill abusers from absolute damage, but in the end, it really wastes skill points; coming from the perspective of someone who uses balanced build types and multiple skills.


But actually, wouldn't this limit other builds? Some builds aren't so limited as other in the current Skill trees; so I doubt this will change skill limitations; it will just alter the builds it affects.

quote:

Level 1 Passive Skills


You may be thinking, why is this person suggesting a skill tree that is best for high levelled players while low levelled players have very few attacks to start with? Well, I have decided, passive skills are the most fundamental skills in all of EpicDuel, we may as well see just how well the skills perform when both may be maxed by level 19. I also suggest having low levelled players use high levelled passives because there are more options to experiment with stats to have players used to all kinds of build types. Strength, Dexterity, Technology, Support, and Focus, because passive skills are not picky that way, while attack skills and defence skills usually prefer a linear build type such as caster mages or power strikers.


I suppose; but the change will have some impact on low leveled Tech mages who can't make effective use of Reroute or Deadly aim. I will agree it would allow for some experimentation on the mid-levels, but it must be noted this will affect the low leveled part of Epicduel; which while small, is important for the growth of the mid and high level community.

quote:

o Limits (Part II)


The next part of no limits is being able to retrain/level and be able to skip tiered skills and allocate points to any skill that is available by level (if you are a level 30 and you have not assigned any skill points while retraining, you may directly add points to Surgical Strike... the first tier MUST have at least 1 point each however). This kind of replaces no limits part I as a whole, but the reasoning is being able to have more freedom, promoting creative thinking. You can remove each of your skills


This part seems unfinished(It is unfinished?), but I will comment on in anyways. So let me get this straight, you can skip past skill requirements so long as you have 1 point on every tier 1 skill? In other words, taking current ED skills trees: "You can add points and use directly Surgical Strike if you have 1 point in each tier 1 skill, without needing to progress the appropriate skill line". This is a major move that while may give more freedom; it might boost old builds to dangerous levels.

quote:

Level 5 Stuns


You may be doubting my choice of placing stuns for low levelled players, but these will come in handy to battle track the power of stuns in battle and adjust them, as they lack attention. Stuns may help in ending low-levelled battles more quickly. I have also placed most of the weaker strikes in the second tier. This is to prepare for more advanced attacks as levels progress. Think of it like a chronological order.


You make a reasonable point.

quote:

Level 10 AoE skills and EMP


You may be wondering why I placed very useful skills higher up at the third tier, level 10. I know that multi hit skills are very powerful and fairly imbalanced in low level 2v2. To prepare low levelled players for AoE, I have done 2 things, introduced an EMP at the same instance to provide players with a way to cancel most multi strikes more occurring. I have also placed AoEs at a higher level to prevent players from instant killing enemies in 2v2 from levels 5 through 15. There are now enough skills in an abundance to defend from such skills.


You have made yet another reasonable point; and I'll say this skill tier is probably the best one.

quote:

Level 20 Destruction Skills


You may be confused as to why I had just named Ultimate attacks, poison, and very strong skills under the label of destruction skills. I have placed such skills at the top to prevent tactless skill exploits for low levelled players to instantly kill their enemies. That is the only reason, this is quite similar to the current skill sets.


Once again, I agree with your reasoning. But I noticed that under this skill tree, you'll be changing ED to a boring low level; explosive high levels sort of game; which might turn off new players in the start.

quote:


Orderly Skill Trees


You may also be wondering why I have been so linear in setting the skill trees. This is because, as although each class nearly has the same setup of skills to choose from, not all classes are balanced. By rendering similar skills with different effects by similar character levels, it is that much easier to manage class imbalances by looking at a working example. It is not necessary, however, to not be original. Create new skills, but please keep the minimum size of the skill trees at least 3 * 4 for diversity... but more importantly counters.

I'm 50/50 on this. While you make a good point that this will help with imbalances, but this will have the side effect of making most classes seem like copies of each other; Seeing as they'll end up fightning relatively the same (Particularly; low levels [Yep I brought up low levels again]

As you can see, your suggested skill trees have quite a bit of problem in the beginning of the game. Giving new players passives that are for the most part useless to them until the higher levels.
AQW Epic  Post #: 246
3/27/2012 20:25:04   
Stabilis
Member

^

Yes, while I must get back to you on important notes, I will say that starting off will be a little bit rough, especially without any weapons or armour, or good skills to attack or defend with. My aim is to design the skill trees in such a way as to have key skills (such as AoE/Stuns/Multiples/Ultimates) line up, progressively having a player get stronger and stronger. SO although slow, the low levels will be a key place to train your character and personal knowledge of the game mechanics before slamming face first into the strongest of skills.
AQ Epic  Post #: 247
3/27/2012 21:13:23   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


@void My only problem with that is that it will take way too long to test out and may end up unbalanced in the end. There is a reason some skills are placed higher up the tier system than others and some lower than others. I don't know all of what the tiers affect but I am certain it affects the requirements on skills. Assuming it affects more then that means a couple skills will end up buffed and some will get nerfed but this is just assumption. Also, I don't support the placing skills wherever you want without placing them in the previous skills. It's basically unneeded really. If you don't want a skill then there's only so many points you can invest elsewhere before you're forced to invest in it or another unwanted skill because you aren't the level for new skills. Plus, it will allow for much easier skill abuse. Imagine a BM with Max BL, DA, and Fireball. With your tree it takes them only 30 levels to get all that and a lvl 1 Zerker. But how often does one get Max DA? Seldomly ever. Take two points out of that and you have a lvl 3-4 Zerker. So basically you have a lvl 34 tree at lvl 30.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 248
3/28/2012 3:08:54   
Arevero
Member

@void

The new skill-tree change isn't necessary really, our skill trees are quite fine currently. I mean passives in the first few rounds for lvl 1s is really boring to be precise. I remember telling my friends the best levels where you'll get the most fun out of. About lv11-20s. Because they are very strategic in another way we lvl 34s see it as. Instead of having numerous skill/stat points, we had limited, what made it fun and exciting. The players were also balanced then, instead of having everything enhanced, and antoher person 5 levels above yours could be easily beaten, unlike a lv29 vs lvl34.

The point is that lvls 1-5 in my opinion are really enjoyable as a long-term player. It's the only few lvls without a passive really, and as you lvl up more, passives come in. Sure passives are great and strategic. But a few levels of non-passive are fun once in a while. I sometimes vs a few of my ED friends with non-passive builds and it's quite fun. All i'm saying is that ED producers have preserved variety. They made skill trees in a way that each lvl cap you reach you experience a whole new type of play-style. Now regardless of passives ED is fun, and few lvls of non-passives wouldn't hurt, hence making it more diverse. True that for low lvls you can max out strong abilities such as bunk/bolts/zerks.
But on the long run, people with those builds receive bad records.

Perhaps ED producers could add battle suggestions in the news section on our ED toolbar(1v1/2v2 buttons) and encourage them to use abilities diversely, not spam each single attack to the full. I am not doubting heavily on your suggestion, it's just that these are a few attributes ED will lose if your suggestion was implemented.

NOW...back on topic.
FM buffed by support again(except a limit), may work depending on mages/mercs. Since support has been nerfed numerous times, a small buff to SUP FM shouldn't hurt, but it must have a cap of at least 70 heal points. And Bounty Hunters NEED A BUFF. I think i have made that clear now, regardless of SA buff/BL buff/SMOKE buff just buff something so they survive in the meantime. We further discuss after that. And boosters: please don't ruin them(unless you're noob-ish...) they make the game so much fun and can change the course of a battle almost instantly. And for those who claim boosting/healing is 'noob', well just accept it. I have fought about 10 players today who kept saying noob, noob, noob just because a boost or heal. Seriously i don't see a problem for healing, it's a skill to use, without heal matches would end in 4 or 5 rounds. Finally, replace Bms zerk/something that abuses str... for assimilation!
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 249
3/28/2012 6:28:38   
RageSoul
Member

@void
The new skill trees in some classes might make them UP at first . But let's hope that the testers try your idea out ( along with some ideas )
AQW Epic  Post #: 250
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