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RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread

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4/2/2012 17:57:48   
Sipping Cider
Member

I am one of those caster mages and I do need to say it is OP. I win 100% of the time against lower levels and 100% of the time when I go first against my level players. When someone my level goes first, I only lose of nothing luck related happens to my apponent (they get blocked, deflected, or critted against). Not to mention battles last a few seconds, I do not even NPC anymore.

I would also like to point out that beta weapons are not the cause of these builds, as I use zero in mine. That does not mean beta weapons are not OP, especially for their level they need a major nerfing in my opinion, but they are in no way OP for level 34s.

And as for adrenaline, mercs are still at the bottom of the classes. Think about it: on average rage does about 20 more damage, which usually happens once a game. This new skill helps achieve this extra 20 damage faster. Reroute gives around 30 energy points that you would not have had before. I hope this shows how weak of a skill adrenaline is.


@Depressed Void

Your ideas would help ballance out stats amongst players, but I do not like requirements and conditions in an already complex game, plus it would turn off many new players.
Epic  Post #: 351
4/2/2012 17:58:38   
Wootz
Member

Still, it is drastic.

-22,5% to block is extereme.
Then the difference between the players has to be 55 points (if the forumala is still at (Dex1 - Dex2) / 2 )
And lets say that the player A who has less Dexterity has around 90 Dexterity, so, that means, that the other player would have 145 Dexterity.
And that means +45% chance to be critical hit, and lets see. In two turns, if player A gets to hit he will atleast score one Critical hit, and if that player is Support abusing Mercenary for example, he will already have an increased critical chance plus that 45% which would round up at more then 50% fo' sho'. So that means, that you can be killed in two turns, no matter how much Health points you got. BUT. To survive that, you need to have a lot of Health Points. And lets face it, a Support abusing Mercenary could easily do around 110 damage if he both makes a critical with the Auxiliary weapon and Artilierry Strike.

That was just one example, and it can easily be made for other stat abusings.
Then the battles wouldn't be won by first turn, or a huge luck.
Then they would be won by what point you are abusing.
It would force people into focus builds. Probably trying to reach around 90 stat points in the stats.
And some people don't like focus builds which are forced. Like me for example.
I, in every game, always abuse the stat which increases my block/dodge chance or speed in some cases along with a great offensive skills and DoT's which are my favorite thing ever.

Hope you understand now why I didn't support this at first,
Wootz
AQW Epic  Post #: 352
4/2/2012 18:23:28   
Stabilis
Member

I am changing the given values as we goggle the forums 'v'.
AQ Epic  Post #: 353
4/2/2012 18:25:29   
Wootz
Member

Okay, tell me when you update it.
AQW Epic  Post #: 354
4/2/2012 18:40:52   
GiantBendyStraw
Member

Am I the only one that sees how poorly this game is actually doing :/. Thought I could make a comeback to
this game but realize I don't want to. There will never be balance end of story I'm afraid, bye.
Post #: 355
4/2/2012 18:57:21   
Stabilis
Member

So far I have raised the threshold (minimal value before retribution kicks in), and lowered the overall percentages. The highest penalty is now 33% (1 in 3) for a couple stats when beyond 140 points.

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 4/2/2012 18:59:00 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 356
4/3/2012 1:33:46   
Goony
Constructive!


 @Depressed, I can see where you are going with this, but as Sunguardian said it just adds another set of factors to the game and I like that Epic Duel is/was reasonably simple to play.

If we could go back to early beta when there was no focus (simply raise the robots base damage and have the gains modified by support since that cannot be debuffed and would be fair for all classes) or agility (have rage work on the basis of health differential and that would reduce health spamming). The game attracted a lot of players back then and was fun to play due to the simplicity. I keep mentioning moving rage to health, but have never had a response to say why it can't/shouldn't/won't be done!

One thing that might need to be looked at since, most of the lower level weapons got buffed in weapon damage and it may also help at max level, is the percentage based damage attacks being based on weapon damage. To me this is flawed, it allows some classes to avoid investing in strength to do damage. If it was changed to being based on strength alone that might help some classes, obviously this won't effect str blood mages, but it could make an underused skill like field commander viable to use and intimidate have some effect.

I am wondering how this increase in weapon damage has effected outcomes for mages in the lower levels...

About the discussion on blood mages having bezerker, I would say that maul would be the best choice to replace it. Maul doesn't add to rage, it can be blocked and while it is cheaper it doesn't return any energy and in the case of bloodlust would not return any health. Blood mages have a limited pool of energy, although like bounty hunters they can do reflex boost, the low cost would suit their builds and the chance to be blocked would cause them to invest some points into dexterity. If you look at mercenaries, who don't have any skill that improves with dexterity, the perils of having low dexterity are dramatic in relation to outcomes. Maul, atom, double strike, bezerker all fail when dexterity is low. If you cosider that a 12 point dexterity difference will drop your chance to block to the minimum 4% and also raise the opponents to 16% it doesn't take a much difference in dexterity to see a huge difference in battle outcomes. Most blood mages will use bezerker to chance a quick win knowing full well that if it misses they will be able to rage deadly aim shortly after.

In my opinion, there are way too many suggestions in this thread. The balance discussion would be better served if people could highlight balance issues and give some feedback on how to rectify them within the existing structure of the game rather than going off on new skill/factor tangents. That's not to say that these are not important, it's just that the balance thread has become a place to suggest game improvements rather than discuss balance...

< Message edited by Goony -- 4/3/2012 2:11:35 >
Epic  Post #: 357
4/3/2012 2:27:43   
Arevero
Member

@Depressed
I as a lvl 34 often make new accounts to play on. Know why? ED gets so much more complex as the your level cap increases, often, infact always, lvl 11-24 are the most enjoyable time in ED game play. Goony is very or so extremely right, i love ED, it's really strategical, but seriously, as LV34s i'm sure you all know what i'm talking about. Either you win in seconds or lose in seconds, either you win in a long time, or vice-versa. Hardly much strategy. Go back to Beta times if you have to, but PLEASE, we have had enough of STAT/%/LUCK/REQUIREMENT changes in ED history. Don't make us all wander again to get the hang of a new change in battle.

@Remorse
The thing is, BT has already said that NEW SKILL is plan z (last option). Now Nightmare uses HP drain, which to BMs is totally fun, like well they have 125 or more hp. What's 20 hp gona do, and 35EP drain can make many changes in battle. And don't forget, you are replacing zerk with it. So STR build again, they can have max fireball, and a few DA, then rest into Nightmare. So that's the problem zerk gone, new skill replaced, so zerk wouldn't need any BM skill pts anymore, hence put into nightmare. If you disagree, I'm fine with that hopefully we can discuss further then.

Now already i have heard 4 people quit, including GiantBendyStraw. It is such a waste to see players leave this game due to its 'balance problem' that has never really seemed to be solved. Yesterday i have heard one of my BEST ED friends, quit. Throughout my ED time all the way from lv24-lv34 we were buddies 4eva, and now due to him, being a lv30, trying to survive out there with others using FORMIDABLE builds. He gets dissed every battle. Not to mention he has to buy var to survive which he can't. ED seems dead unless you have var, and u must have it frequently due to constant class/weapon/build changes. He is a TLM, and he got beaten almost each battle. I mean please, make a change for once that satisfies everyone. I don't want to see people quit ED after all the trouble they've gone through to strive to be their best. I don't want to lose anymore friends either. I have lost already a bunch from inadequate balance changes. And i am NOT blaming ANYONE at all. Just let us all think together and make the best we can. Thank you for reading this.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 358
4/3/2012 2:48:17   
Remorse
Member

^
STR builds still havnt been properly addressed so maybe it is time for plan "Z".
Whever I make ideas for changes I try to adress more then one problem so please read this reasoning:

I can see your reasoning, But this skill is ment to be useful for blood mages. HOWEVER it would NOT benfit their ever popular power builds.

WHY? Because Powerbuilds Try not do 2 things an that is 1.Use NON attacks skills (asimilation would mean powerbuilds can have a drain and not waste a turn hence Benefits powerbuilds which need to be disadvanatged) 2. Sacrifise HP, For powerbuilds HP is actually greatly needed even if they have alot, To me if Blood mages Powerbuilds wanted to use this skill then basically it would be like them giving away their starting turn if they started.

We all know how much of an advanatge STR Blood mages get from starting so if they used nightmare they would essentialy be wasting it.


HOWEVER,
Nightmare would be a GREAT blood mage skill for a balanced build,
It will allow them defence agianst powerbuilds (greatly needed) AND it won't cost energy since they dont have a proper regian it means they wont have to invest so much into energy.

Basically it elimnates the problems Balanced blood mage builds have to make them an AWSOME option to go rather then 95% of them going STR or TECH spamming.

WHAT ARE THE PROBLEM WITH BLOOD MAGES?
1. Powerbuilds are too strong.
2.balanced builds have holes.

Switching beserk for nightmare will mean their STR build has Less options, Or they may consider becoming more strategical and use nightmare BUT that would mean their powerbuilds Is not completely an unfair attack spamming counterless build hence sovling this problem.




< Message edited by Remorse -- 4/3/2012 2:58:33 >
Epic  Post #: 359
4/3/2012 3:02:28   
Rayman
Banned


 I Agree with remorse i dont know why that Dnt get inplemented and problem with Bms fixed.
AQW Epic  Post #: 360
4/3/2012 3:29:10   
Arevero
Member

@ Remorse

Good reasoning, it definitely makes them more creative, but what i am saying is i'm afraid they will continue str builds through this ZERO EP cost drain. Did i mention it also drains a lot hence TAKING ep from opponent to your OWN ep bar. This will/might allow STR builds to go further. Since zerk was blockable and EP costly, this Nightmare allows them to spam fireball or heal, and you guessed it:Heal Loop. Maybe you are right, or I am. But i am only looking ahead, in fact they can be like TLMs/CHs; wouldn't even need points into EP, just high hp and decent amount of dex/tech along with high hp. So what i think you cannot see here is that they will be able to use an attack, surprisingly throughout the entire match with bloodlust, hence leading to their way 'offensive is the best defensive' move, forcing their target to heal and boost due to BMs DA and Fireball, while they can also EP drain. BUT if that can be solved, I'd be happy to allow Nightmare enter BMs' skill tree.

But something else i have seen is that Nightmare gets you back 25% of EP, at max that would be about 8 or 9. This wouldn't be really useful since it takes 20hp meaning BMs using this skill would be a total waste. Why convert 20hp into 9 ep? Perhaps a more strategic skill could be implemented to make BMs able to use at least dex/tech builds.

I would like to continue this discussion and hopefully make an end that suits both of our needs and expectations. But 25% of 35 is alright but when you say for 20hp, that's kind of wasted.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 361
4/3/2012 4:10:06   
Shadronica
Member

Balance what balance? All I see now at level 33-34 is an endless parade of the three upgraded?? classes spamming the latest best builds with the latest best weapons. Am I supposed to be happy about leaching a win or two? Not very entertaining.

Let me ask a question here ... if I want to have a high win percentage tell me what class should I be?
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 362
4/3/2012 4:13:40   
RageSoul
Member

@Shad
Welcome to I.M Balance World , we serve both "oh-so-flawless" TM Caster Build or STR Blood Mage flavors .
AQW Epic  Post #: 363
4/3/2012 4:16:30   
Calogero
Member

I'd say to wait just a bit with Buffing/Nerfing BloodMages and Buffing Mercs...

Those 2 Classes have intimidate that is yet to be buffed...
Maybe after Intimidate's Buff Defensive builds could be effective for BM and Mercs

_____________________________

Having a Signature is too mainstream
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 364
4/3/2012 4:39:27   
Arcanis
Member

@Shad: Ninja
AQ MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 365
4/3/2012 5:48:52   
Remorse
Member

@Arevero,


They cannot heal loop with it...
They cant attack spam with it either....


Let me give you an example,
Do mages spam plasma bolt because of the energy gained through asimilation????
NO!
Neither will blood mages through nightmare.

Nightmare is basically EMP except Blood mages use HP rather then energy, the HP cost is high because it gives a little EP back, THAT IS ALL.


Plus as I said before, Most STR builds/power builds want use this skill, if they do then they shouldnt be classed as a powerbuild....


You could just however trade EMP for beserk.
Would be simpiler but persoanly I think it would be cool if BLOOD mages actualy had HP sacrifising Moves as their name sugests they would.
Epic  Post #: 366
4/3/2012 7:34:36   
Arevero
Member

@Remorse

Yet again, that lives BMs in the dust. They can't really do a high dex/tech build, nor a 5-focus build, and maybe a SUP build. But if Nightmare sacrifices HP for something LOWER than your sacrificed Stat, then why would people use it much. The point right now is to give BMs nerf THROUGH a skill that also gives them more variable builds to work with, and of course power build isn't an option. And true, BLOOD MAGE does fit with HP sacrifices, but that's not the point. SO the main thing i'm worried about is NERFING it too much or BUFFING it than nerfing it. Since they sacrifice HP, they can try caster mage, fireball and DA since it works with STR, and through Nightmare they can COMPLETELY take out as much as 2 static/a whole regain of reroute/2-3 assimilation strikes. And they can get high hp meaning 20 sacrificed is nothing of a matter and also taking a huge reduction to your enemies EP bar.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 367
4/3/2012 8:13:10   
Shadronica
Member

@ Arcanis. Two thumbs up mate. Good call!

1. Caster Tech Mage.

2. Strength Blood Mage.

3. Non included but added for Arcanis' sake is Ninja.

Any more to add?

< Message edited by Shadronica -- 4/3/2012 8:17:57 >
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 368
4/3/2012 8:31:48   
Goony
Constructive!


 lol, enjoying this discussion so much I thought that a few other things needed to be pointed out ;)

@Arevero, I had been stuffing aroud on my alt as a Bloodmage, I was using 110hp, 101 dex, 62 support and 90 energy. I was using max reflex boost with max supercharge and 1 lightning bolt and 5 heal (just in case)... The reflex gave me 52 dex taking my total dex to 153, if supercharge had of stacked with bloodlust I would have won more battles and it was hard to beat the mages who have the standard copyright str or caster bolt/deadly aim builds but other than the mages it was great!

Also, 5 focus stupid builds work just as well for most classes, focus builds are hard to be effective with these days as the power builds often cripple them before they get a chance and that's why not many people use them.

When some builds can tear through 95hp with 35-41 def and 37-42 res in 4 turns without criticals then I think they may be a tad overpowered. I can also understand why people use those builds and why not they work great. But is it good for balance!

Oh and for the record, I'm using a 5 focus (gamma bot) mercenary build with 62 support and unless the mages go 1st with normally less support I can win, and it is way too often that mages go 1st with a 30+ lower support differential. pretty much a guaranteed loss. But I only have a chance by using intimidate twice and using a heal that returns 45 health (much the same build as I used to use for the NPC's) as well as using 1 health booster with the blood mages and 2 with the tech mages. If that's balanced then I'm a monkeys' uncle ;)

The best fights I have these days are vs bounty hunters, cyber hunters and tactical mercs, they have an advantage due to energy regain or bloodlust/smoke, but I like a challenge and if I win it's almost certainly due to luck factors or going 1st. The fights vs mages are just tedious as the only way to win is to heal, heal and heal again as they all have the same build and that accounts for most of the battles I enter in 1v1...

I find it almot funny that they give mercenaries a new passive to help outcomes and at the same time they also adjust rage so that tank classes are not as effective... Logic plus logic equals the illogical. Do you know what I mean?

Edit: Shad ninja'd me, how about the bunnies, there should be a rabbit class. Run, rabbit run...

< Message edited by Goony -- 4/3/2012 8:34:38 >
Epic  Post #: 369
4/3/2012 8:52:16   
DestruRaGe
Member

Omg do something with those bloodmages they got too much power

_____________________________
Epic  Post #: 370
4/3/2012 9:13:53   
Wootz
Member

I think that the maximum of anything you said should be 11% or less, Depressed Void.
Thats just my opinion.
AQW Epic  Post #: 371
4/3/2012 10:06:42   
Shadronica
Member

@ Goony. Ahh the wascally white wabbit class. Those bunnies are so ebil!! O_o
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 372
4/3/2012 10:28:46   
drinde
Member

^

We must bake pie.

On balance:

Having high STR decreasing Connect Chance would be good for balance, as people would have to choose between high damage and risk or moderate damage and security. This should apply to all Melee Skills*.

*Say if you get a -10% Connect Chance, Massacre would have a 90% Connect Chance. (Unblockable Melee -> Reduced Connect Chance)
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 373
4/3/2012 10:32:28   
Remorse
Member

^ Disagree,

Luck should NOT be considered as a means of making balance better.

It wont fix STR builds if they block alot , it just means that they get lucky if they dont get blocked.


There is too much luck involment as it is,

Proper changes need to be made to STR, not just making it unatractive to use because of Luck. Because Luck is already the limitng factor to these builds.
Epic  Post #: 374
4/3/2012 10:35:33   
drinde
Member

^

How about making Strike DMG get diminished after each use, like I suggested before?
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 375
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