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RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread

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4/4/2012 18:23:40   
Sipping Cider
Member

@andy123 and arevero

Yes, the purpose of my idea is to push builds to five focus, or just ballanced stats overall. I am not sure wheather I would like this myself or not, as there are pros and cons to it.

As I stated eariler it comes down to this:

  • Do we want different and creative builds to choose from but repeatable and predetermined battles? (This comes from stat abusing in a single category, such as strength or support for example)



  • Or do we want the same old and predetermined builds with different and strategetic battles? (this comes from spreading stats out amongst the categories)




< Message edited by theSunguardian -- 4/4/2012 18:25:37 >
Epic  Post #: 401
4/4/2012 19:23:46   
Wootz
Member

Sunguardian,

5 focus builds are always the same, in every class.
They might have a different layour and different points in it, but it all comes to the same thing.
Not all builds are repeatable and predetermined.
Anyone who has ever battled me since I was an Cyber Hunter, he or she always seen me use a build that nobody else even dared to try.
None build who was ever copied from myne are not the same as myne are. I even posted some on the forums here.
Back when Cyber Hunters didn't have Plasma Armor, everyone had a crap ton of Strenght, huge Health and moderate defenses.
I had moderate Strenght, same as always 67 (16-20), moderate-mid high Dexterity and low Technology. And I used a unique build no one has ever tried to use which was Max Static-Max Malfuncion-Max Massacre and you know what? I didn't even have half of my enhantments as now and I owned every single thing.
When we got Plasma Armor, everyone turned into Tanker-Massacre builds, and I was the only one who used Venom strike and killed them.
I use Venom strike in every possible build I can because it is a great skill, and when I don't use it, its always because I need more stats into Dexterity rather then Energy.
Heres a list of my builds that I used:
-Tech Abuse
-General strenght abuse with Cheap Shot and tankish abilities
-Maxed Massacre
-Venom Strike tank
-Venom Strike Tanker Massacre
-Venom Strike Tanker Multi
-Venom Strike Tanker Multi Massacre
-Venom Strike Dexterity abuse Multi

Out of all those builds which I used only two don't have Venom Strike (Tech abuse has one, theres a pic of it). And the bad thing about your argument up there is that every of those builds, except Tech Abuse, have a great win ratio and are able to do both long and quick battles and are evenly powerfull againts every other class.
-----------------
In short. No to forcing 5 focus.
AQW Epic  Post #: 402
4/4/2012 19:47:55   
Sipping Cider
Member

@Wootz

Sorry if what I was saying was rushed. Now that I look at it I used the minimum amount of words to explain a lot. Let me try to explain and you tell me if I am understanding what you are saying.


When I say more unique battles with focus builds vs more unique builds with stat abusing builds, this is a generalization. Stat abusers have more stat placement options than ballanced builds, thus is were I was coming from with the idea that stat abusers have more build options for different builds. Ability placement would still offer options for ballanced builds, but stat placement would be more simular between all builds.
As for more ballanced battles and different strategy in each: For ballanced stat builds during battle there are many more options to do. For example: strength build with a blood mage does not use plasma cannon since it would be better to just strike or shoot with gun. With a ballanced build, you could strike, shoot with gun, or use plasma cannon, since all have their pluses and minuses.
Epic  Post #: 403
4/5/2012 2:01:18   
Arevero
Member

The thing ED IS unique. Why force everyone to go 5-focus, in fact non vars would not even be close to achieving that. They will probably be no TECH/STR/DEX/SUP builds anymore if this stat diminishing was implemented. Now i heavily stress on the words UNIQUE and DIVERSE because that is what ED is about. Almost no limitations to builds or build creation. With stat diminishing being put in, the best build would be 5-focus. And what we are trying to achieve is BALANCED builds, not a 'best' one. And for one thing, stat abuse is probably what makes a TECH/STR/DEX/SUP build, so in general, these builds would be thrown into trash without any realization at all.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 404
4/5/2012 5:07:46   
drinde
Member

Like someone suggested long ago, how about this to stop Abuse.

Skill-Locking.

But with a few changes.

Skill Lock:

If you use Skill A, you cannot use Skill B for the remainder of the battle. Vice Versa Applies.

Skills Affected

Plasma Bolt <-> Plasma Rain
Smoke <-> Massacre
Malfunction <-> Massacre/SuperCharge
Bezerker <-> FireBall
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 405
4/5/2012 5:18:15   
AllenLingChen
Member

^ If u lock skills, then the whole point is ruined. The diversity of the builds become further locked.
Besides, what needs to happen is the stat that affects the skill. If fireball was affected by support, and plasma rain affected by strength, then things would change.
The whole point is that nowadays the meta is focused on strength, tech, and dex to some point. If they started affecting less, the balance would've been better, which is why I'm against changing deflection from supp to tech, even though it got changed.
AQ  Post #: 406
4/5/2012 5:20:25   
drinde
Member

^

The Skill Locking only applies to skills that synergize too well IMO.
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 407
4/5/2012 5:27:53   
AllenLingChen
Member

^ If u do skill lock, u basically break a combo. That deserts like 99% of the meta's builds into something else, namely focus. Because 1 stat no longer helps, everyone would just focus around cuz they only get 1 skill of choice.
AQ  Post #: 408
4/5/2012 5:29:39   
drinde
Member

^

O RLY NAO!

STR Abuse Possiblity:

Bezerker + Strike + Deadly Aim

SmokeScreen/Malfunction + Cheapshot + Strike

Tech Abuse Possibilty:

Plasma Bolt - Gun - Assimilate - Plasma Bolt
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 409
4/5/2012 5:36:25   
AllenLingChen
Member

If Smoke No Longer Came With Mass=> Smoke Only Increases DMG, hit chance, and block. Easily Destroyed By Bot. Besides, where are ppl gonna dump their extra points?
Tech Mage=> No malf=> Supercharge easier due to less mana usage. No Rain/Bolt Combo=>Agree on this one, to save lower lvl caden's "wrath"
Blood Mage=> No Fireball/ Bezerk=> This combo is OP, but remember, under most circumstances, Bezerk gets blocked easily. Besides, If that is out, what does BM have left?
AQ  Post #: 410
4/5/2012 6:14:50   
drinde
Member

Can the 2v2 System please be adressed? I haven't seen a 2v2 Balance Update in like.... well, never, actually.
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 411
4/5/2012 17:04:24   
JohnMenzies
Member

Several Blood Mages and I have succeeded with using Tech Builds.(Plasma Cannon, Blood Lust, and Plasma Rain)
Epic  Post #: 412
4/5/2012 17:32:35   
Zeoth
Member

More than several I run into them as often as caster TMs.
Post #: 413
4/5/2012 18:36:58   
Wootz
Member

Sunguardian,

Still, all classes have a few stat abusive builds.
Bounty Hunters Strenght, Technology and Support.
Mercanries Support and Strenght.
Tactical Mercenaries Strenght and 5 focus ;)
Blood Mages Strengt and Technology
Cyber Hunters Strenght, Dexterity and Tankish Strenghter.
Tech Mages Technology and Support.

Forcing 5 focus is just the same thing, but making those builds weaker in power. As people would invest enhantments into one only stat which would be abusing again and have a Moderate-High defenses. Basicly like Cyber Hunters, having really high defenses while maintaining atleast 16-20 Primary damage which is a lot.
Also, it would be a really bad thing for the F2P players as their weapons wouldn't give the stat modifications to cover the focusing on all stats rather then one or two and they wouldn't have enhantments, 'cause really. Who has seen an F2P player with enhantments?

So, if you are understanding what I meant to say with this then okay.
If not, heres something else: Basicily, its a weaker version of stat abuse in which P2P players would preveil dramaticly above the average player (F2P).
AQW Epic  Post #: 414
4/5/2012 18:46:46   
Sipping Cider
Member

Wootz

Ok I see what you are saying. Five focus is just another build that would limit everyones choice on builds. And that it woud make things harder on f2p players. I understand that, and I am trying to say that would be a problem if my idea were to be inplemented.

A pro, however, would be more interesting battles. For me, at least, I notice that battles with a five focus build are more challenging and require more strategy. For example, technology mages just bolt, rain, heal, bolt, and rage rain every game. Sometimes they may use a bot or boost, but battles take very little thinking. All the creativity was in the making of the build. Same with strength mages. They sidearm, fireball, berzerk, and rage sidearm. Sometimes they may try to use fireball twice or boost, but for the most part how they play is pretty much the same each battle. Five focus builds, they are more wild. In a battle you can try taking out the enemies energy, put on a buff, strike a debuff, heal, bot, strike, aux, sidearm, save energy for ultimate, or do a caster skill. All these options can be available for a five focus build, meaing each battle requires more strategy.
Epic  Post #: 415
4/5/2012 18:58:53   
Wootz
Member

You got a point there, though,
but still, some people, including me, only want to devote to one or two stats and few skills.
In my case the Dexterity; speed and dodging stuff in other games; and the awesome Venom Strike and the awesome Massacre are the only things that I really give a darn in a Hunter.

I mean, I don't want everyone to be using an all around builds, I do like to use them myself from time to time, but not always. And, even with the 5 focus force, Glass Cannon Tech Mages could still pack a nasty punch and only level the skills needed for that abuse. Same with every class. So, I mean. There might not be problem with the stats. There might be a problem with the skills.
AQW Epic  Post #: 416
4/5/2012 21:09:46   
drinde
Member

Should there be a cap for each stat?

I see people with 39 Base DEF/RES, and guys with 27 Base STR DMG all the time....
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 417
4/5/2012 21:17:56   
Joe10112
Member

I have an idea to re-make CH a little:

1) Remove Plasma Armor, replace with Technician again. As much as I like Plasma Armor, it should not be there in my opinion, Technician should be there.
2) Either restore Static Charge back to it's former glory percentages, or change it so that Static Charge becomes a passive energy-regain version of Blood Lust. And for those people who are saying "OH NOES MORE PASSIVES?", remember, Technician replaces Plasma Armor, a passive.
3) Swap Deadly Aim from Blood Mages with Shadow Arts from us CH, and re-make Shadow Arts to be:
a) Either make Shadow Arts also increase connect chance (more hit chance = better for zerker)
b) Change Shadow Arts so that it gives a passive percentage boost to DEX and SUP. (DEX boost = increase in block/connect chance, SUP increase = Stun Resistance Increase)

What do you think about those ideas?
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 418
4/5/2012 21:19:11   
drinde
Member

^

And finally, replace Massacre with Surgical Strike. :D
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 419
4/5/2012 21:20:00   
Joe10112
Member

@^: Must be joking.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 420
4/5/2012 21:26:21   
Stabilis
Member

Energy Shield makes a much better substitute for defending with in my opinion, as opposed to Technician's crude Resistance boost after converting from Technology.
AQ Epic  Post #: 421
4/5/2012 21:31:38   
Joe10112
Member

@^: Then CH have DM AND E. Shield? I'd like that, but it's unfair.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 422
4/5/2012 21:33:53   
drinde
Member

^

Def Matrix and E Shield?

Curses, ninja'ed.

/smokebombvanish

< Message edited by drinde -- 4/5/2012 21:34:43 >

_____________________________
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 423
4/5/2012 21:36:23   
Mr. Black OP
Member

^
High defense builds are more of a problem then strength builds, strength builds have almost no defense, I can hit over 30 damage on them with my auxiliary and I have almost no support while high defense builds can equal damage and take less. People seem to forget that quick kills=/=high percent.
Enhancements are the main problem. People can now have 40 more stats from just the enhancements themselves (not including the weapons own stats) so high defense and damage are common.
What they should do is:
1) Remove agility, people will begin placing more points in health thus lowering the amount of stat spamming.
2) Half the amount of stats on each weapon, with weapons having less stats people will stop stat spamming.
3) Make the energy cost of 1 class's move cost the same energy as the equivalent of another class's move (fireball and plasma bolt, ultimates, etc).
4) Have focus increase damage of all weapons, this will discourage stat spamming.
5) Have skill diminishing be applied to luck as well, so 54 dexterity vs 0 will have 27% chance to block, while 57 dexterity vs 0 will have 28% (instead of the current 28.5% in this case).
Epic  Post #: 424
4/5/2012 21:41:46   
drinde
Member

^

Good ideas.

Now, I believe if we just reduced 5-7 damage from all primary weapons, STR Spamming would stop.

And maybe put 7/8 as the minumum damage dealt, instead of 3, which doesn't do much at helping a battle.
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 425
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