RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread


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4/5/2012 22:50:51

Goony
Constructive!

I made a suggestion for a new factor called tension to reduce stat spamming. The suggestion can be found here

While it would promote more balanced builds it wouldn't stop them totally. I'm with Suguardian and Turkish, I'd like more strategic battles that are not decided by the person who gets 1st turn or rages 1st...

As for my suggestion that skills should be based on base statistics alone and that in turn devaluing varium, I'd say that it would reduce the advantage, not nulify it. Most games I play versus non variums usually involve me getting more luck factors due to the additional stats I have. If the stats that improved the skills were taken away then perhaps they would have some chance, but the advantages in damage and luck would still favor the paying players.

Another observation is that when battling lower levels the luck factors, in the main, advantage the higher level players due to the extra statistics. Would it be better to level scale luck or should higher levels always have that advantage?

Epic	Post #: 426

4/5/2012 23:06:25

AllenLingChen
Member

The whole reason why STR is so OP is because it influences your gun, and primary, 2 important things to have in a fight.
It would be great if gun dmg was controlled by support, but then that causes support mercs to be even better.
Maybe introduce a new stat to control gun dmg, and make it increase deflection instead of tech?

AQ	Post #: 427

4/6/2012 0:44:07

drinde
Member

quote:

High defense builds are more of a problem then strength builds, strength builds have almost no defense, I can hit over 30 damage on them with my auxiliary and I have almost no support while high defense builds can equal damage and take less. People seem to forget that quick kills=/=high percent.
Enhancements are the main problem. People can now have 40 more stats from just the enhancements themselves (not including the weapons own stats) so high defense and damage are common.

Oh man, I had to face this guy before realizing this. :O

What could anyone do to this tank?

High DMG -> Blocked
Poison -> Heal-Loop
EMP -> Static Charge
Rage -> Heal-Loop

Epic

Post #: 428

4/6/2012 3:22:47

Shadronica
Member

I still feel that opening skills only at certain levels gives new players plenty of time to explore and use the skills at a more even pace without upsetting balance too much.

I have just been down fishing and caught myself a very nice fish for Easter :) and had more time to think about what I would like to see in each tier.

Level 1-10 would be Field Medic and 1 passive and one defensive skill to be able to buff yourself.

Level 10-20 would be buffs and debuffs.

Level 20-30 should be multi hits and more advanced damage hits because most players want to experiment a little with 2v2 then.

Level 30-40 should be the highest damage as stated many times above. ;)

You guys do realise don't you, that we have only gone up 4 levels in over 2 years? In the meantime we have had all sorts of toys sold to us when we could have been buying higher level weapons while we level'd up if only the game had a plan to progress. The way things are going now we are stagnant because of the imbalance. We cannot get balance by just nerfing or buffing a class skill here and there. The skill tree needs to be fixed firstly.

This is one way that I can see for the game to move forward. Sure there are other ways and ideas but I really think that it is time to get things overhauled and move ahead.

No point in sitting there poohooing the idea just because it will push you out of your stat abusing, maxed out skills, "kill bill" tricky build comfort zone. Panting for your next tricky toy.

Let us all take some responsibility for the stagnation in the game. All I mostly see in this forum is very short sighted ideals for the game and it is reflected in the attitude of our Game Developers. So really it is up to all of us to think just a little further than what we are going to get released this or next week. Come on everyone try to test those few remaining brain cells and think of the future. What do we really want this game to be like in one year from now? Are you happy that by this time next year we may have progressed to level 35 with the same old stat heavy, even more maxed out skill trees?

I know I have posted this elsewhere but as I have had more thoughts about it I just had to add into it.

< Message edited by Shadronica -- 4/6/2012 3:23:27 >

AQW

Epic

Post #: 429

4/6/2012 3:33:21

drinde
Member

^

Your idea seems a bit hazy to me.

Do you mean that it works like the current settings, only on higher LV?

As in:

Now: Bezerk = LV5+
Then: Bezerl = LV30+

Epic

Post #: 430

4/6/2012 3:46:02

Frost Snake
Member

personaly i think all the classes and weapons are balanced and enhancement's arent op or anything you cant just get them right away you need alot of creds or varium to get 10 enhancement's on weapons and people with str builds usualy have low hp which makes it balanced.

so quit complaining that some builds are op and take the time to look at the downside's to those builds. that is all

AQW

Epic

Post #: 431

4/6/2012 6:26:26

Arevero
Member

For now just go with what Joe said abotu CH builds, and no SS for Mass is WRONG. UTTERLY DISAGREE WHATSOEVER. Mass is what makes us Hunters and how would you do Mass would sword/club or vice-versa with SS and wrist blades. And also TECHNICIAN would be good enough, no need for E shield. And STATIC for a lust or full percentage? BT choice.
Also Mass could be increased to about 55% so we wouldn't be that weak-ish. That would also give Bounty a bit of a buff.

@drinde

Now THAT is heavy tank. You could barely do 11 damage with your weapon unless you have a STR build which would be suicide against a heal-loop build like that.

Post #: 432

4/6/2012 14:40:01

supermasivo
Member

Nothing new but ... having of 10 battles 8 str blood mages pwning with 3-4 strikes MAX not having any fear to block couse 2 unblockable and really strong skills...like sidearm and fireball--- BLOOD MAGE STR build NEEDS to get fixed SOON! u have to nerf something there or u have to pur more requierements there like CHs... u are not even close of creating ballance.

Epic	Post #: 433

4/6/2012 15:17:21

Mr. Black OP
Member

I just made a strength build, with 34 base strength, I get 22-27+34 damage for primary and gun.
Instead of nerfing classes or builds we should nerf enhancements and weapon stats.

< Message edited by zman 2 -- 4/6/2012 15:20:02 >

Epic	Post #: 434

4/6/2012 17:09:43

Arevero
Member

Can someone tell me why BMs seem to have a higher 'LUCK' than anyone else. Or am i the only one experiencing it. I am not complaining because luck does come out in the long run. But i get crits almost everytime with fireball and i get deflected and blocked and just look at their base DEX/TECH. Not to mention it happens often. Now sure they can block and deflect but it happens most to me against BMs, and most of the time it's my static being blocked.
So this weeks release SHOULD be based on:

CH new skill tree build with max % or a lust, DA, TECHNICIAN

BM new skill tree with SA, nerfed, assimilation

BH buff on SA

Post #: 435

4/6/2012 17:11:44

Stabilis
Member

No Technician. So many reasons why to not have it.

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 4/6/2012 17:12:40 >

Epic

Post #: 436

4/6/2012 17:20:25

Ranloth
Banned

Has anyone ever looked at WhiteTiger's suggestion located here: http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=20163014?
He's on right track, we're destroying the luck which makes things OPed now and could solve a LOT of problems. If Stun gets altered, that means Grenades can match offensive skill's damage more + have effect but still relying on luck, rather than now being luck and poor damage.

Epic

Post #: 437

4/6/2012 18:12:41

Arevero
Member

@Void

Any reason why NOT to have tech? For a start CHs can live with it, and 2nd E shield isn't necessary since we have DM, and thirdly we need a boost skill which has to be technician so we can actually defend ourselves/allies in 2v2.

Post #: 438

4/6/2012 20:31:59

Stabilis
Member

quote:

E shield isn't necessary since we have DM

Energy Shield boosts Resistance for 3 turns including the turn it is activated, Defense Matrix has the same mechanics, except improves Defense.

There is no synergy there. At ALL.

quote:

We need a boost skill which has to be technician so we can actually defend ourselves/allies in 2v2.

Energy Shield won't defend you? Technician only lasts 1 turn longer, but Technician synergizes with Robots, Sidearms, Auxiliaries, and skills. There enough options to exploit Technician. Energy Shield cannot be tanked with, as it also costs energy, but reduces energy damage more often than Technician to 3 damage.

Energy Shield is the optimum skill because you will not have to use it as frequently, giving you the freedom of utilizing the other weapons in your arsenal.

Also, because Technician has defensively weaker effects, you would be relying on it too often. When Heartattack is used on Energy Shield, you would have about 5 to 7 RESISTANCE left. With Heartattack used on Technician, you would have about 5 to 7 TECHNOLOGY left. 5 to 7 Technology is worth 2 Resistance points at the greatest.

Epic

Post #: 439

4/6/2012 21:50:34

Arevero
Member

^
My point is it will make CH probably OP all over again, considering we can be on the offensive side or defensive side with our shields or debuffs. Besides, Technician is MEANT to synergize with abilities, and how would TECH then tank us up, E shield would be the tank ability considering that it gets you more RESISTANCE points. And like i said, DM and ES is OP, we wouldn't have to worry about our DEF/RES, only our str and hp, leading to TANK/HYPO-STR+HP builds. Now if that's not OP what is?

What we are trying to do is nerfing CHs through some buffs as well. Not BUFF IT UP AGAIN. Technician was a great skill back in CH days, AND CAN BE AGAIN. E shield should stay as a BH only skill. Many classes have their own unique skill, BH BARELY HAS ANY, IN FACT NONE AT ALL, and if CHs get E SHIELD, MALF/CASTER WOULD NOT EVEN PENETRATE THEM AT ALL. I only just realised how 'un-diversed' BH skills were. And the DIFFERENCE between the heartattack ability being used wouldn't MATTER. EITHER WAY TECH USES 9 EP, E shield uses 11, so the 5-7RES or 5-7TECH DOES PAY OFF DUE TO THE DIFFERENCE IN ENERGY AMOUNTS.

Post #: 440

4/6/2012 23:22:19

ambien
Member

if u all seen the cheap bms build all they use is the str. stat they have no build at all. about time maybe the staff wakes up and does something to stop bms cheap builds.

all they do is copy bms build 1/2 the ppl playing bms dnt

know how to play them they just copy builds an think they are good players well guess NOT.

always the SyFy

Post #: 441

4/6/2012 23:33:53

Stabilis
Member

Arevero, as a 5 month experienced Cyber Hunter, allow me to enlighten you about Technician and Cyber Hunters. Cyber Hunters possessed Technician from birth. On the 12th of January, Technician was removed and Plasma Armour to replace it.

AHEM...

quote:

http://epicduel.artix.com/gamedesignnotes/date/2012/01

TLM - Replace Technician with Blood Shield

Reduces ability to be more tanky + increase damage output + heal

CH - Replace Technician with Plasma Armor (passively gives energy resistance)

Gives them a reliable passive with better defensive options

BM - Replace Technician with Energy Shield

Gives BM higher energy resistance

Slightly reduce passive Armor skills’ defense/resistance

Evens out scaling per skill level, make it slightly less powerful

So the staff had come to the conclusion that:

Cyber Hunters needed a passive, a reliable passive (I still say that Shadow Arts could be replaced by a reliable passive even now).

Technician was not providing enough protection.

Technician was too advantageous for TlM due to tanking and robot-mancing which gave them crazy ratios with massive robot damage and absorbing little damage, perfect for tank healing.

They even gave Blood Mages Energy Shield because it worked much better defensively opposed to the defensively weak Technician.

Armours needed to balanced as well.

I agree with you on one part, Cyber Hunters should not have an armour passive as do Tactical Mercenaries and Mercenaries due to Static Charge, which is the fastest source of energy restoration available. But Technician is way too weak for Cyber Hunters. When I played Cyber Hunters as a novice, enemies would still hit way above 10 damage because Technician would only increase my Technology by an average of 35, which is equal to about 9 Resistance points, while Energy Shield gives at least 20 Resistance as Support usually lies at 40 points or greater. Technician eats your skill points if you want more protection, because 1 point of Technology does not = 1 point of Resistance. If Technician was good for Cyber Hunters, then for what? Stat exploiting the ability for luck, because deflections now go by Technology, and overpowered attacks, because Technology boosts Robots and various skills (eg, an overpowered EMP or perhaps an incredibly lucky Plasma Grenade with good damage).

Energy Shield does not fail in these cases as to where Technician does. Stat boosting, compared to Defense/Resistance boosting is an incredibly uncertain jump for balance because of the countless factors and effects.

Epic

Post #: 442

4/7/2012 0:01:12

Arevero
Member

I thank you for your care over Cybers, but remember that we get DA along with FULL SC % or maybe a lust, and along with E shield we could just be a bit OPed. We could go against a STR BM now and win easily, just DM/ES throughout the match and we could destroy COMPLETELY anything in our way-leading to an almost tanked out build. And don't forget lower-leveled Cybers can take HEAVY advantage of 2 shields for DEF/RES. And also take in mind we could then get huge damage output, and small damage input which people will start all over again the 'CYBER OP NEEDS A NERF' discussion.

Since we received PA, a lot of vids/posts came up on the web and Cybers were blamed heavily. Well when we were a weak, useless group nobody even paid us any attention. Only those loyal Cyber fans discussed for a buff. Then again a Buff always ends in a Nerf, even heavier than the buff, then the whole cycle of buff/nerf would start again. So i'm not saying TECH is better/worse than E shield, i am saying the consequences which we Cybers do not want to face again abotu a whole lot of complaints rising up. E shield is VERY effective in defensive actions, and then we would be able to control everything, DEF/RES/STR/EP etc. IF you think ES won't make us tank-OP, then sure, implement it, just that so we wouldn't get a whole lot of complaints again.

@ambien

BMs are obviously deserving a buff after a 5 week non stop STR rampage. But that's not the matter, the matter is FOR STAFF TO TAKE ACTION.

Post #: 443

4/7/2012 0:11:05

drinde
Member

@Arevero

Actually the BMs DO deserve a buff. And a nerf. And a shiny top hat.

Their synergy with strength needs to be demolished, and their inability to use the other stats to their advantage cured.

So.

BEZERKER INTO ASSIMILATION! :D

_____________________________

Epic

Post #: 444

4/7/2012 0:47:09

JohnMenzies
Member

@Drinde
Agreed. Like seriously, give us assimilation. No need to explain.

Epic	Post #: 445

4/7/2012 2:49:47

Frost Snake
Member

@Drinde bm's are far from needing a buff they easily beat players in 2 turns if you were to buff bm then there wouldnt be any point playng really you would get beaten everytime you vs a bm without fail and taht wouldnt be fun for the players.

if you should buff anything it should be tm they are a very weak class i changed to one for a week and i got 0 wins. their the only class in need of a buff in my opinion.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 446

4/7/2012 3:32:31

RageSoul
Member

quote:

if you should buff anything it should be tm they are a very weak class i changed to one for a week and i got 0 wins. their the only class in need of a buff in my opinion.

Wait... what ? The "TM is weak part" , i disagree . I mean , really , when did i heard them having a single nerf after Field Medic got changed ? The class had been buffed multiple times ( along with CH ) so , nah , it's ( sorta ) fine

AQW

Epic

Post #: 447

4/7/2012 4:06:47

Frost Snake
Member

well their not really fine they have no strengths they need to be buffed more than bm and they should atleast give tm smoke back to make them an ok class. in my opinion that is :s

AQW

Epic

Post #: 448

4/7/2012 5:23:59

Arevero
Member

WHEN i said BMs need a buff, i meant that STR nerfed, and another skill BUFFED so they use more creative builds, and yes, assimilation>berzerk is exactly the point. Since we discussed it MULTIPLE times, staff has not implemented it which is a problem and will cause SO MANY UNNECESSARY LOSSES FOR PLAYERS!!!

Post #: 449

4/7/2012 6:05:31

drinde
Member

Also, would it really hurt that much to put a 1 turn warm up and add 1 turn of cooldown to Plasma Bolt? That skill being spammed almost makes me long for STR BMs....

Epic

Post #: 450

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