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RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread

 
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4/8/2012 2:48:16   
drinde
Member

Actually, Assimilation can be quite reliable for stopping burst hits if you have enough of Dexterity to make it connect.
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 476
4/8/2012 3:50:33   
Arevero
Member

Remember what we are trying to do here, to NERF STR BMs, taking out Supercharge won't even HINDER that STR build. Our goal isn't taking out unnecessary things, in fact Supercharge will become a CRUCIAL ability once we take out zerk for assimilation=Dex build, don't forget you have REFLEX BOOST. And why on Earth would we take out an ability that doesn't even involve STR in it, purpose--nerf STR builds for BMs THROUGH assimilation allowing more variable builds.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 477
4/8/2012 5:58:39   
RageSoul
Member

I think the NPCs should have a separate code set of balance because whatever we do on the player side , it affects the NPC side , thus making boss NPCs like Slayer harder to beat than before . Plus , about the minimums .... idk why there still there considering the fact that it affects EVERYONE not just the non-abusers and players ( well i would still accept Crit minimum chance because of Tanks but not the Block and Deflect minimum chances ) .
AQW Epic  Post #: 478
4/8/2012 9:54:18   
HellsCupid
Member

Dear, dear Poison... Y U NO KILL
Epic  Post #: 479
4/8/2012 10:01:31   
drinde
Member

^

I know right? At least buff it... :3
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 480
4/8/2012 12:12:53   
Hun Kingq
Member

Joe10112, switching DA with SA will nerf the whole Blood Mage class not just strength builds because for one the tank builds, tech build, support builds, dex builds all rely on the extra damage from the side arm when the energy is gone.

Trans, They mentioned the new classes ultimate skills will be replaced with what no one knows because they are being very secretive about it. You know that just giving back Assimilation the energy regain is just 6 points at max if not blocked and at max, so would that be a fare energy regain compared to static charge and reroute, no. I constantly got 47 points of damage and to players that is huge but huge is 60 points or more and then everyone will complain about the damage output of Assimilation, then that will get nerfed, players will stop using that skill and would be another unused skill to add to the skill tree. The original strength abusing class is the merc classes and both now has field commander, that can boost strength, so not only they abuse strength but they could boost their strength even high making berzerker and double strike even more dangerous and what does the Blood Mage have to boost strength or technology, absolutely nothing but stats and enhancements with skill requirements and weapon requirements a Blood Mage could only go so high. First, want to nerf strength and now you want to nerf tech so it appears you want the Blood Mage to be an easy kill like it was for the first 6 to 8 months of Delta when the Fire ball was a weak skill even with high strength at max. Because as I previously mentioned for due to having no skills that boost tech or strength or a debuff that increases damage the Blood Mage have to have super high strength or super high tech for to see a good damage output due to players having high tech and high dex.

Everyone opinion counts but if you do not play a certain class everyday and tried every build and skill combo they how can you really say switch one skill for another will solve the problem well it won’t because for fireball to get in the upper 40s many things have to happen, low dex of the opponent, no physical armor of the opponent, max fireball, very high strength, I know these things because I tested fireball at every strength level.

At the same tech max plasma bolt has greater damage potential then Plasma Rain, which costs more energy, it should be the opposite making Plasma Rain more desirable to use. To see any real damage from Plasma Rain you tech has to be at least 140 (40-48) but sometimes that is not enough.

If you want to beat a strength abuser then use your shadow arts, increase your dex, wear physical armor since you have plasma armor, use emp, use malfunction, have energy wrist blades, a energy side arm, and a physical Aux. Increase your tech, use your multi.

Arevero, Reflex Boost sucks for the Blood Mage class, I tested it at max with max super charge and max overload, I got the same damage with it on as with it off. I tested to see if it would less the damage of my partner against a support abusing tact merc artillery strike, partners health was at 50 and the artillery strike got 57 damage on them and with me having high dex with physical armor they got 47 damage on me. That is why you don’t see Blood Mages even bother with reflex boost. I used max reflex boost against a tact merc doing double strike and they got the same damage as if it was not there. I used it in battle against the boss with allies and instead on the strikes being blocked and the damage to be lessened there was no blocks and the damage was twice as much. If you want to taper down on the strength abusers then they need to give the Blood Mage more desirable skills that gets more then 30 to 40 points of damage that increase with multiple stats say dex and tech.

If you want to blame someone for the tech abusers and strength abusers among the blood mages blame the staff because it started to happen when they took away Assimilation then the Flood came when they took away technician. The mage classes is the most nerfed classes of all the class maybe not on purpose but it happens and here again players that are not of those classes are calling for a deliberate nerf due to they can’t come up with builds to beat them, you know their moves what they will do next, you can counter it. Nerfing a stat will affect all players of all classes. Nerfing a skill will affect all players of the whole class, punishing the ones that don’t go that route because of the ones that do. How do you know these are the ones that are class hoppers or alternates of the players with primary accounts of the Hunter classes or merc classes trying to get that one classes weakend so that their main accounts could have easy kills once again?

Epic  Post #: 481
4/8/2012 12:36:56   
Ranloth
Banned


Excellent post Hun, with exception of poor feedback.
I want to nerf Tech for BMs? Where did I say that? "Yeah we want it maybe, along with Plasma Bolt of TMs OR reducing number of Str and Tech abusers of respectable class (Str and Fireball, Tech and Bolt)." <- That's what I said, Tech is about Caster TMs who are one of the 'best' abusers out there. Please read carefully before you reply, you missunderstood my post and others might as well due to you..
Assimilation is to reduce number of Str builds, is it hard to get or you just don't want a change? Don't think about yourself, it's pathethic as you make no valid point but want to save your class from nerfs, which will be due for Str abusers anyway due to diminishing on stats at about 110+ range, this affects EVERYONE, not just BMs so don't say it's another nerf aimed at BMs only. At the moment, you can do Fireball + Berzerker + BL + DA build which focuses on one stat - Strength. Add high HP and minimum requirements and you can get up to 140 HP, 70 Energy, very high damage + DA, and HP back on attack with minimal use of Energy. Wait here's best part - Gun and Fireball are unblockable, so you can always wait for another Fireball if you think Berzerker will miss. EMP will destroy you? High Str still makes up for it, doesn't matter really.
BM has no Str or Tech booster? Your point? It has Dex booster instead, just like BHs. It enhances 2 of your skills, Stun and Ultimate. Maybe not much and Ultimate is hard to get if EMP'd but Assimilate would help it if you trained it + had about 70 Energy. You could easily survive one EMP and get Energy back with high Dex as it improves chance to hit + your SC.

Plasma Rain isn't as strong as Bolt? Glad you just noticed. Difference is - it hits 2 enemies not 1 so it makes sense to be weaker. If you use it on 1v1 then tough. Multi is a 2v2 skill or at least aimed at it.

This is Discussion and we're Suggesting as we're allowed in here. It's OUR suggestion so if you have nothing to ADD to it (constructive feedback) then don't post as you're trolling everyone who says about changing BMs slightly. What you're doing is trolling people who want better balance, at least trying to suggest something, and it's up to the Staff. If you have nothing to add (feedback) then stop trolling.
AQ Epic  Post #: 482
4/8/2012 12:43:51   
Stabilis
Member

Trans, just block him, you are not proposed to believe or listen to him. I have tried chatting with him before, making compromises and compensations, but never came to an agreement if it meant that part of his suggestions were annulled by popular demand.
AQ Epic  Post #: 483
4/8/2012 15:36:14   
Hun Kingq
Member

Trans, Switch Berzerker with Assimilation will not solve the strength abusing problem, players will still have high strength and just use Assimilation in place of Berzerker then because of its damage potenetial you all would want to Nerf Assimilation. Reflex boost I used on max with max overload and max Super Charge the damage was the same with reflex boost off I tested it over 25 times and the results were the same, same damage with it on or off. I also tested Plasma rain I got the same damage with one player as I did with two in 2vs2. So we are to settle just for a dex boost for two skills which if a blood Mage wanted too use at max would have to have more than 70 points of energy especially if an emp is used which depending on tech ranges from 26 points of energy drain and the highest on me was 47, that was not even on max, so there goes two skills that can’t be used and with a high dex build that means low weapon damage, low weapon damage means low health return, 15% energy return is not enough to regain back enough energy to use either skill, 6 points of energy return from max assimilation majority of time is not enough to get back enough energy to heal. BH multi improves with dex while the Blood mage Plasma Rain improves with tech so taking away technician nerfed the Blood Mage by getting better damage at low tech with not one but two skills and that is why there a more turn to strength builds.

I am standing up for the players that play the Blood Mages and these unjustly suggestion that would affect all the players that play the Blood Mages and if standing my ground and fighting against these unjustifiable suggestions that affects all Blood Mages are considered trolling then I guess I will continue trolling to fight against these unjustified changes due to a few Players that can’t find the right counter build.

I went ahead and did a retrain with the health you provided with max fireball, max berzerker, max deadly aim this is what I came up with.

140 health
78 energy

Str 36 +56
Dex 37 +19
Tech 33 +30
Sup 42 +9

Primary 20-24 +34
Side Arm 20-24 +33
Aux 12-15 +38

Defense 18-22 +9 –2
Resistance 22-27 –2

Max fire ball 72 physical damage energy require 33
Max Berzerker 90% more damage 45 energy required

This build is weak they will be lucky to get in the upper 30s with the fireball one emp even at level one would take away more than enough energy to take away the use of fireball or berzerker in their next turn. Look at the defense and resistance vulnerable to energy and physical attacks so as we can see the problem really lies in how you set up your own builds to counter physical attacks.
Epic  Post #: 484
4/8/2012 15:51:12   
Ranloth
Banned


Taking my words literally and yet didn't read again? You missed BloodLust and I didn't specify what Lvl is DA, which is rarely maxed with Str build, more like Lvl 5-6 which has much lower Support requirement. And nor Str BMs have maxed Berzerker either, did I mention maxed skills? No, so don't assume I did.
Lower DA = small difference in damage and more stat points free, so you can improve defence a little or most likely Str - HP makes up for poor defences. May I ask, what items did you use to make this build?
Defences are poor and EMP can destroy it, m'kayy. Lower DA = more Str so that's higher damage of Fireball and Primary as well as Gun so even better as BL regenerates HP through damage which makes up for defences.

You're BM yet you try to make me look dumb by using your build and implying that it won't work? You take my words or rather put them in my mouth and assume things you want to hear rather than what we want to say. If I was to go by what you said - what BM has maxed Fireball, maxed Berzerker, maxed DA and 3 skill points leftover at Lvl 34? I've seen BMs with lower DA, lower Berzerker, higher BL and possibly higher Heal (Lvl 3 most of the time).

Lastly, stop it, seriously. We're suggesting, where does it say this WILL get implemented? We're allowed to suggest whatever we want and if it's wrong, maybe give feedback on it rather than disagree with every, single, suggestion, players make about BMs. Think about people fighting you, NOT yourself being weakened. In life you will not always win and nor will others always lose, I think the word there is balance.
AQ Epic  Post #: 485
4/8/2012 17:42:47   
Hun Kingq
Member

Trans, First don’t care if I misspelled something because I ain’t in school anymore. That build is a true fireball, berzerker, Deadly Aim Build and even if Deadly Aim is lowered to get low support requirement for that skill they still have weapon requirements and level 5 or 6 Deadly Aim you get diddly for side arm damage, I know that for a fact and it will only bring strength up to he next level so where is the strength abuse in that build. When a Blood Mage could get strength past 165 (33-40) with high health and energy then that would be a true strength abuser which only way that is possible is no requirements or improper requirement placement on weapons with 10 enhancement on every single piece of gear. I have seen high strength Blood Mages with no armor and took them out in two rounds.

I used the Bionic Battle staff, the egg zooka, and the stun Blaster, with the Tesla P Armor

If players that is not of the class wants to make a suggestion it is fine and dandy but don’t just say swap out this skill for that skill without suggesting improvements to meet the description of that class. The Blood Mage is suppose to be a very aggressive fighter how is a skill showing one jab showing aggression.

If someone would have suggested switching Berzerker with Assimilation with these changes
Name: Smashsimilation
Energy use: none
Skill type: Tripple jab skill
Improves with none
Energy regain: yes
Damage: percent of weapon damage
Just jumping to level 10
Level 10 25% weapon damage 50% energy regain, 50% weapon damage 50% energy regain, 100% weapon damage 50% energy regain.

All what everyone suggest was just swapping out skills not coming up with a true viable alternative that meets the description of an aggressive fighter or something that will not affect the whole class in a negative way.

What about the strength abusers among the merc and hunter classes
Cheap Shot: Strike enemy ignoring a % of all defenses; 25% chance for critical strike.
Double Strike: Empowers you to swing a second time for additional damage. Cool Down: 1

Then you got Massacre an unblockable skill that improves with strength how do think the player playing the Blood Mage feels when he sees strike after strike for a long period of time and nothing they can do about because you can’t have enough dex in the world the block that move but if a Blood Mage uses berzerker at rage even a merc it gets blocked over 90% of the time. In a 2vs2 a mer told me he has rage and will use berzerker I told he will get blocked he used it any way and guess what he got blocked I told him I told it will get blocked.
Epic  Post #: 486
4/8/2012 18:04:40   
Stabilis
Member

I unblocked Hun Kingq to see the conversation between he and my friend Trans.

quote:

Trans, First don’t care if I misspelled something because I ain’t in school anymore.


I read Trans' posts thoroughly, nowhere did I see him contradict your language skills.

Sigh, his tactics to implant false memories are still unfeasible.

Blocking again.
AQ Epic  Post #: 487
4/8/2012 18:21:04   
Arevero
Member

Look, first of all, Hunter's do not have ANY instant kill skills like Bunk/bolt/berzerk, so don't veer off topic. Secondly, can we please stop literal arguments, of course BMs are aggressive but that does not solve anything does it? Besides, BMs have Fireball/Plasma/Rain/Supercharge, all aggressive moves, but right now you are not using all the moves PROPERLY. To BM SC is like a dead skill, well then make it alive. If you don't like assimilations 'aggressiveness', then how about we make a 'Class fitting skills' thread?
Assimilation is a VERY strategic skill considering it drains and deals damage. In fact it can drain over 30ep if maxed out and used. not to mention you get some of that EP to your own EP bar.

THIRDLY, read thoroughly, if you are out of school, then take Night-shift classes, if you do not observe the entire POST, then you can't make an accurate judgement of the other person's message.

Now about BMs STR build, it has totally rampaged ED for more than 2 months, not to mention its effectiveness and kill-rate. Right now SOMETHING RELATING TO THAT BUILD HAS TO GO. That's it, end of story, something has to go. Now is the matter of WHAT should go. You must also take in account low-leveled players and high-leveled players. Zerk can be maxed out at low-levels at lvl 15 or 16. It provides SO MUCH damage, it has a one shot kill chance. Did i forget to mention BL as well? BL is one of the best passive, in fact i think it is BEST, and to merge that with 3-4 high damage-dealing abilities, it leads to DEFINITE OPness. Regardless of the damage, you can heal yourself EVERY ROUND OF THE MATCH. SO zerk MUST BE REMOVED.
Plasma cannon provides variable tech builds-STAY
Fireball starting ability and does lower damage than ZERK-STAY(remember i'm comparing things here)
Super Charge, final attack, don't even THING about it-STAY
Berzerk is a high dealing amount of damage through 3 relentless attacks, not to mention it highly benefits lower-leveled BMs-GO

You may disagree to my opinion, but like TRANS said, THIS IS A PLACE FOR DISCUSSION AND SUGGESTIONS, EVERYONE HAS THEIR OPINIONS.

Thank you.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 488
4/8/2012 18:23:29   
Wootz
Member

HEheh, I unblocked Hun a few months ago. But I just skip the posts. I never read what he said.

Anyway,
I just read the OP And UP Classes thread in the forums, and since it belongs in here. I'll just add what I think of the OP and UP classes.

Over-Powered firstly, since everyone loves being so strong.
I'd say, that any class in which you can basicly just spend points into a certain stat or two without much thinking into it is an Over-Powered class.
And the current ones, in my opinion are(Along with skill abusive classes):
-Tech Mages: Super Charge abuse, Glass Cannon(Technology abuse) Just to add, I think that Support abuse would still be a strong abuse.
-Blood Mages: Strenght abuse (5 focus is pretty powerfull, aswell. But its far less harder to kill), Support is also great
-Cyber Hunters: Strenght-Dexterity abuse, Dexterity abuse, Strenght abuse, Massacre abuse and extreme tank builds
-Tactical Mercenaries: 5 focus, still not as powerfull as a Venom strike eats it alive, but all around it is pretty solid right?
-Mercenaries: Nothing I can think of...
-Bounty Hunter: I think that if someone would try 5 focus/Support abuse it would have a devestating impact. Comicalbiker is an Bounty Hunter today. And he is doing awesome. /BroFist

Now, the Under-Powered ones, YAAAAY:
-Tech Mage: Strenght abuse, simple, lots of Dexterity and its gone
-Blood Mages: Nothing I can think of
-Cyber Hunters: Support builds
-Tactical Mercenaries: I'd say Strenght ones, but I haven't battled one of them recently
-Mercenaries: Pretty much lots of it. I think if a build would have a Field Medic of 5-9 and Bunker Buster or Strenght like skills it would be a good try.
-Bounty Hunters: Strenght builds are quite weaker nowadays, well I wouldn't say weaker, I'd say that they're more of over-powered by the other power builds

And, now.
How should we fix this?
Maybe new skills, maybe better stat diminishing, maybe more stats or more stat points. Penalties, requirments and forcing shouldn't be any of the ways.
Skill balancing would be a great thing. Like they did on the Static Charge.
What do you think?
AQW Epic  Post #: 489
4/8/2012 18:25:06   
Joe10112
Member

Hun Kingq, are you just trying to tell us all that BMs are actually UP? If you believe so, I don't know what we can say. Max Fireball on my defense (about 30 defense on average) does 40 damage.
Zerker (max) on me does 10-10-30 on average.
I have 107 HP total. Gun = minimum 30 damage, Rage Gun = 50.
3 turns kills me. I don't know of ANY other class that can do that, except for STR High-Massacre Builds.

You're lobbying to "fix up" BM, while I'm lobbying to re-do CH up a little.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 490
4/8/2012 18:26:53   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


@wootz Strength Mage UPd? I guess I better go back and give out wins to the countless masses I demolished in the past few weeks or so. Yes, blocking is a problem but that's a problem with all Str builds. You can't forget DA+Malf=big damage on guns and low chance of deflection.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 491
4/8/2012 18:34:36   
Arevero
Member

@Joe

Cyber does need a fix, except right now BM is more important due to the losses people are gaining due to the STR abuse that could have been avoided if BT FIXED it in the latest release.

@Wootz

Str mage isn't UP unless they are up against heavy DEX builds. STR mage have Bludgeon, DA, and their weps. They can bludgeon at dramatically high-rate due to its low EP and damage output, DA is all passive, rage gun and BAM, 30-40 damage. Then they have primary, strike every round, then again, bludgeon. So it's not UP or OP, just between those 2
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 492
4/8/2012 18:35:36   
Wootz
Member

I just read Joes post. And since I think Hun is talking about Blood Mages being Under-Powered here is my thoughts:
-basic Strenght spamming, meaning abuse build a.k.a. power build
-take me for example. Now I have a friend DarkAngel.. and he uses a power build. And here. My defense is 34-41, and that is a lot. He uses Delta Staff, Charfades gun, Tesla E and Frost Cannon. He has 21-26 +34/32 Primary damage. And low 22-27 Defense, meaning theres atleast 50 Dexterity difference. Now, he uses a Fireball at me, and he does an average between 33-40 damage and if he criticals it does around 53 damage. And that is quite a lot. Becuse I have 93-109 HP depending on the build. (I always have the same Defense on those builds, except the Max Massacre one), then he uses the Gun and he does 30-40 damage on me, no problem. Because Deadly Aim adds +8 to his damage. And I'm already down at half of my Health. Now, if he Berserks, I'm as good as dead. As it will do a lot of damage, 'cause he has it Maxed. And he can kill me without problems. Or just wait until another Fireball which is usually raged. So, he can kill me quite easily, and he has Bloodlust and regenerates his health. And what I can do to him?
Lets say I use my Venom-Massacre build, 103 Health. I get the first turn. I do the Venom strike, he uses Fireball and boom. I'm already at 70 Health, while he is at 95 'cause he regenerated some. Then I use Static Charge, poison applies, and he's down at 60 aprox Health, he uses the Gun, and boom, I got 30-40 Health and he's back at 75. I just strike, he strikes, and I block him. He's at 40 Health and I got 30-40. I use Massacre, he's left with around 10 Health more-less and he uses either Rage Fireball or rage Berserker. And kaboom I'm dead. Power build. Brute strenght is just abuse.
-If you can just spend all your points into Strenght and Health, win like 90%, its a power build


Do you now think its Under-Powered?
-------------------
EDIT: I haven't seen many Strenght TMs lately, so excuse me for having an opinion without much proof.

< Message edited by Wootz -- 4/8/2012 18:36:41 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 493
4/8/2012 18:38:51   
liy010
Member

Mmm...I was in Xraal's place today and I noticed he was selling EMP Grenades (In the picture of his shop) so I wonder...What would happen if the Staff made EMP grenades as a Booster? Like you could buy one and carry it and throw it when you want.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 494
4/8/2012 18:41:30   
Joe10112
Member

@^: Wait, he was selling EMP grenades? Is that just a visual glitch?...

I say no to consumable EMP grenades/Stun Grenades. We have them as skills for a reason.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 495
4/8/2012 18:46:11   
Stabilis
Member

@liy,

I like. I do like this because EMP skills are generally inexpensive for energy, so purchasing EMP boosters at a reduced EMP value is perfectly sensible. This could also strategically combat skill exploit builds such as the Dexterity Cyber Hunter, Technology Tech Mage, or Strength Blood Mage/ Bounty Hunter.
AQ Epic  Post #: 496
4/8/2012 18:50:43   
Frost Snake
Member

i just was in a battle with a bm that had max sc and he still is really good D:
AQW Epic  Post #: 497
4/8/2012 18:56:20   
Arevero
Member

Woah woah hold on a second, EMP as a booster, you're kidding me right. Totally ruins Hunters making our skill dead and useless. If everyone had EMP, they would just spam it throughout each battle, so...no, highly disagree on that. It's like buying a skill and using it without any EP waste, totally unnecessary, did i mention EMP is meant to be a skill not an item?
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 498
4/8/2012 18:59:18   
Ranloth
Banned


I'd agree with Arevero. Wouldn't affect my TM or TLM as much but other chars would fail with their strategy every battle if they had boosters, unlike now with EMPs mainly unless TM has high Assimilation.
AQ Epic  Post #: 499
4/8/2012 19:20:09   
Stabilis
Member

What about a really weak EMP booster, such as 10 energy? Pay 30 credits for a booster that removes 10 energy, we could also restrict carrying capacities for these... such as 1 EMP booster per battle.

Dear God, a new page! You know what that means!!

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 4/8/2012 19:21:11 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 500
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