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RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread

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4/9/2012 4:07:32   
Arevero
Member

@Trans

May i summarise:

So what you are saying is

STATIC-full %
SA-revamped to connect
PA-Technician

If that is what you are posting then i suppose we can agree on that idea.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 526
4/9/2012 4:12:31   
Ranloth
Banned


 Yes, agreed. My suggestion on page #1 revolves around old skill tree of CHs, I don't suggest things with current skill tree. :P
And it's a small buff to BHs at least, more could be needed but that's to see after CHs are gonna get balanced and BMs slightly tweaked, as well as TMs with Caster build (Max Multi, Plasma, Reroute and Heal + 140 HP, 100 EP and Tech spam *with Betas*). Then we could talk which classes need buffing. :D

And SA would keep what it has + chance to connect too. SA is luck-based skill now and still would be.
AQ Epic  Post #: 527
4/9/2012 4:24:46   
Arevero
Member

Cool, now 2 more questions...

1. Will connect stack up with connect weapons?

2. How much % will the SA connect be?

I think those should be answered to make a start on this idea.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 528
4/9/2012 4:27:58   
Ranloth
Banned


 1. Connect weapons only add bonus on Strike, so no other skill is affected by it. But getting up to 12% connect IIRC is a bit too much even if luck based so no, it would not stack with Connect weapons for this very reason. BUT there's one option - whichever is bigger is applied. So if Connect weapon has 7% to Connect then using that. If non-Varium version of them weapons has 2% Connect and SA is at Lvl 10 giving 5% then SA is used instead.

2. I'd say 1% per 2 Levels is good enough, so at Lvl 10 it's 5% more chance to connect.

< Message edited by Trans -- 4/9/2012 4:29:27 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 529
4/9/2012 4:34:07   
Arevero
Member

Then how would you increase per 2 lvs? So saying that, only every 2 lvls makes a difference, i think we need to work on that. Since SA gives 10% block chance, then connect could do the same...

Put it this way, connect replaces STUN chance, making connect 10%, this way it will not discourage low-leveled players into putting points into SA, and the thing is that hardly any class other than Bounty can put SA on max. This way, BH will receive the buff they need, hence Cybers will get balance due that it's unlikely CH will get SA on max like BH.

So, do we have an agreement?
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 530
4/9/2012 4:38:33   
Ranloth
Banned


 Hmm, many players say Stun resistance is useless as you cannot notice it really so that's a good thinking. 10% and replaces Stun would be good, and same suggestion as above in my point #1, whichever is higher is applied. :D
AQ Epic  Post #: 531
4/9/2012 4:44:06   
Arevero
Member

I do not think that any stacking should be applied, 10%connect is really high, so no stacks would be added, that way this skill stands a chance when being told to the mods. So 10%BLOCK and 10%CONNECT, perfect buff for CH and BH after CH's nerf and BH feebleness. Now all is left is to hear other player's word or if its agreed, post it to the BT and Moderators to be implemented!
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 532
4/9/2012 7:06:10   
drinde
Member

Um.... I'm not so sure that Cybers need a buff...
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 533
4/9/2012 8:05:07   
rayniedays56
Member

Give CH a buff and a nerf.

GET RID OF PA!!!!



lol


Bring SC back to 55% and replace PA with TECHNICIAN...please...they are nerfing an original skill with an alien armor...
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 534
4/9/2012 8:12:19   
drinde
Member

^
If so, raise up Plasma Nade's DMG. They were kinda weak before. :3
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 535
4/9/2012 8:15:06   
rayniedays56
Member

Plasma Grenade? Sure, give it a slight buff :)


I have so many ideas for CH that it is making my mind burst! :P


First? Get rid of PA, add Technician and Move SA to BM and give DA to CH
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 536
4/9/2012 8:40:50   
Arevero
Member

Like right now, I need an agreement on SA-DA, or SA-revamped of what Trans and I discussed. DA should be a mage-only skill since it provides equivalent damage other than skills mages possess. Now i am saying for a Tech and a Bloods type. But then again, Cybers can make use of that Skill a lot. But also then again, SA revamped is a great skill since it provides 10% block chance and 10% connect chance.

Overall, it's up to the mods to decide.

@Drinde

We are only buffing CH since we are taking alway PA so that is why CHs need a buff as well as a nerf.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 537
4/9/2012 8:59:12   
JariTheMighty
Member

^We are? Please.

< Message edited by JariTheMighty -- 4/9/2012 9:00:30 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 538
4/9/2012 9:59:51   
drinde
Member

+10% Connect?

That would seem to help a certain build which is used excessively by a certain class focusing on a certain stat starting with S. And it's not Support.
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 539
4/9/2012 10:10:39   
Ranloth
Banned


 Strength. Hence why I wanted to keep it 5% Connect (+1% per 2 levels) and keep Stun resistance as it is. It won't be abused as much, Str builds WILL get nerfed due to stat diminishing so it won't be as bad so it isn't too big amount.
And it won't stack with Connect weapons - will pick whichever is higher. If Connect weapon has 7% while SA has 5% then it uses Connect weapon. If Connect has 2% and SA has 5% then it uses SA instead.

Giving DA to CHs would be an overkill really, they did well without it before PA so why should it be changed? SA could help them if they want to, and SA change is always a bit of a buff to CH, not too big, and BHs who do need a small one. Then BMs can keep their DA and as I said with Str builds.
If Berzerker gets taken out for Assimilate, we've dealt with Str BMs well - they are useable still but cannot do their 3-hit combo anymore, and if they go for abusive Str then diminishing will get them; lower damage than now and as poor defences.

Stat diminishing will hopefully lower Caster TMs but not fully, so I'd say they will give warm-up for certain skills so you cannot abuse them - like Remorse said; if you go 1st, you cannot use Plasma Bolt BUT if you go 2nd then you can. Lowers 1st turn advantage and same would go for BM. Strategy, no? Also shouldn't multis have 2 turn warm-up? They are strong and 2 enemies as well as placed on Tier 3 which used to rank skills by power so it wouldn't kill Support builds as you'd still be able to use it. I'm not saying it's wrong now at all, just a small thought on which I may be completely wrong.
AQ Epic  Post #: 540
4/9/2012 10:17:39   
HellsCupid
Member

Lookeey Here, there is but one simple answer to all your problems. Creativity.

It seems as if most people nowadays are running around with copied builds and sorts; Strength Spam, +5 Focus, Tank/Support, etc. However, there is something called a Counter. I have spent quite some time rolling the so-called "lower" classes and such, and to be honest, there

wasn't much of a problem. All it required was a little creativity and some time to think. Skills are all set-out perfectly, in my opinion, each class has it's Uber ability, each class has its buffs and de-buffs. Moreover, each class has its advantages and disadvantages. Well yes, I agree with

some of you, skills should be switched out and replaced... but all I see that is, is as a source for more argument. There can never be a perfect battle scenario, plus, you've got to include that filthy "LUCK" into these discussions; blocks, crits, etc.

“That is a good book which is opened with expectation, and closed with delight and profit.”
Epic  Post #: 541
4/9/2012 10:17:41   
drinde
Member

What about my previous idea of locking skills?

Used Malf = No Massacre/SuperCharge
Used Smoke = No Massacre
Used Bezerker = No Fireball
Used P. Bolt = No P. Rain

IN THE ENTIRE REMAINDER OF THE FIGHT.

Ah, I do so love destroying synergy.

Players would be forced to choose which skill they really want to use.

quote:

Also this is suggestion, if you have something to add then please go for feedback rather than "No because it's a nerf!".. :P


I've done that before? ^^;

< Message edited by drinde -- 4/9/2012 10:35:43 >

_____________________________
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 542
4/9/2012 10:30:46   
Ranloth
Banned


 While it might be good idea, drinde, it would really be harmful in Tank fights. As you cannot use some of the skills which could help you defeat them..
It's great way to make players think so I applaud the idea for trying but that synergy sometimes is efficient yet not as harmful. Any nerfing skill should be cast, so no damage dealt, just like buffers are done. This removes the 1st turn advantage as you don't fall behind in the damage, and Str build will get more if the hit lands than you would so it's really best choice.

Instead, you could put limits on a skill which could be harmful as I mentioned above but make them reasonable. Ultimate Skills would be once per battle - it's possible for CHs to do it more than twice easily although a bit harder for TLMs and TMs. Tier 1 skills would have no limit as they aren't harmful at all, well they may be strong but if you change something then it affects whole player base, all levels. EMP falls into 2nd tier as BHs have it on 2nd place, and I don't get why CHs have it in Tier 1 so limit on that skill would be ONE use per battle. It's deadly skill if used wisely and CHs abuse it. EMP is a strategical skill so casting it over and over should not be allowed. Tier 2 skills which are usually Stun and Shields, or other buffers, they would get no limit as well. Shields are to help you so why not, and if players overuse Shields then enemy gets quicker rage, and Stuns are strategical + lower damage so you get the point. Tier 3 is Multi, Passive or nerfer so Multi would get a limit of maybe twice per battle as opposed to Ultimate having once only so you cannot abuse that. Nerfers are like buffers, you could use them over and over but casted, not hitting the enemy for damage.
Passives would obviously have no limit but it could be good idea.

It's restricting, yes, but only Tier 3 and 4 consisting of stronger skills. Hopefully diminsishing on stats WILL affect skills as well so having no limit on Fireball or Plasma Bolt wouldn't be a problem. Also this is suggestion, if you have something to add then please go for feedback rather than "No because it's a nerf!".. :P
AQ Epic  Post #: 543
4/9/2012 11:46:45   
Joe10112
Member

quote:

@Trans

May i summarise:

So what you are saying is

STATIC-full %
SA-revamped to connect
PA-Technician

If that is what you are posting then i suppose we can agree on that idea.


Lol that's kinda what I said, unless Trans said that a long itme ago :P. SA revamped to connect, give to BM, switch with DA from BM, give to CH, switch passive for passive, and then SA helps Berzerker Connect.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 544
4/9/2012 11:51:24   
rayniedays56
Member

Sounds good sounds good :) I love all the ideas we are dishing out here.


Now...about the Mercenaries...


I just have to say that I think the "Buff" really wasn't...good...


Me? I say give 'em back the full glory of Hybrid armor, maybe make the new Buff a little better?


Posting suggestions because I still see them struggling :/

AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 545
4/9/2012 11:54:36   
Ranloth
Banned


 Connect applies to Strike only, not all skills. Weapons do that, just Strike so SC of CHs goes under that and BHs utilize Strike a lot with SA build.

Sorry but I'm against DA to CHs and SA to BMs. I was for at some point but old CHs could compete well, why should they get bigger boost? Stat diminishing + Berzerker to Assimilate will take care of Str BMs and DA is fine. I can beat them with Support and Dex TM build with just Assimilate so no DA will make them too weak, while Assimilate will do the job for Stt builds and add more build possibilities.
Buff SA and we're improving 2 classes at once by a bit and making skill a bit more useful. DA is too much, even without Plasma.
AQ Epic  Post #: 546
4/9/2012 18:15:55   
Arevero
Member

@rayniedays56

We cannot give Mercenaries their full Hybrid armor glory because it provided low-leveled mercs with too much power in the first place. I remember on a test Bounty level 10 against lv8 merc when Hybrid was strong, i got defeated easily. Not to mention i had aux and gun, and the merc only had a sword. So another buff would preferably be added.

I think the 10% connect with 10% block chance is a perfect idea, therefore DA and SA do not need to be switched right now. Unless of course every player votes against that...

Right now, some Mercs i face are TECH Bunk and SS builds. In fact they work quite well, with High EP and decent HP, it does provide abundant damage. Although i would like if Mercs had more varied build choices in-game.

@drinde

I do not like the locking skills idea mainly because it just dishes out the whole point of a build, why STR build if u can't massacre? It often saves me during battle against BMs, so skill-locking should not be implemented in my opinion. It will heavily decrease variety in the game, while also turning off new players.

@Hellscupid

Great, 'creativity' has come at last, i love making builds out from the start, the main thing with us nerfing BMs in the first place was due to their 'spreading disease' of that STR build, going through almost EVERY BM in PvP, so then again, the other BMs who have creative builds are ones i'm grateful to.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 547
4/9/2012 18:23:15   
Ranloth
Banned


 Although, Arevero, I'd still disagree with 10% conect being a bit too much. 5% sounds much better + keeping stun resistance. We want to buff up the skill but make it not too strong as it's a passive + relies on luck + this would give quite a few bonuses that are a bit expensive; balance wise. Add just 1% chance to connect per 2 Levels and it's good buff to it, then we can think of a way to buff Mercs if needed and CHs would be done with if they get old skill tree back.
Why I think SA -> DA and DA -> SA (CH and BM) is wrong is bringing CHs back up to their current glory but without Plasma Armor and destroying BMs who if were to get Assimilation, would suffer a lot from it. Buff SA, keep DA and it's perfectly fine.
Remember that CHs can do perfect Dex build with Multi and SA even after Plasma is gone. Dex + SA = higher chance to block and you're adding higher chance to hit of 10% more which is quite a lot. BHs can do the same but with HP return instead of HP so you see my point here? I want to improve the skill, not make it slight overkill. :)

As I said, Stat Diminishing will take care of Str abusers. Caster TMs will be dealt with as well when stat diminishing happens + Dev's idea which is unknown as they will try to literally destroy the abuse of the build, not the build itself. So abuse would come with penality probably, which is good way to solve problems.
AQ Epic  Post #: 548
4/9/2012 18:26:06   
Stabilis
Member

Luck in skills is a no go for me. Level 1 luck skills can be lucky, and level 10 luck skills can be unlucky. Frequencies are unreliable this way. If you put your life on chance, opposed to placing your life on constants, you will see that constants are more reassuring, this is a strategy game, and strategy is thought through fully, not assumed.
AQ Epic  Post #: 549
4/9/2012 18:33:04   
Ranloth
Banned


 Problem is, luck must play a role. Luck = probability. It must exist in everything - even in simple tasks, game or real-life.
If Stun has 30% chance to stun and 70% not to then it's probability. You cannot take it out as you must destroy the skill, which is a no. What's the chance to get a drop? A probability. What's a chance to get a critical hit, deflect, block? A probability. You cannot make it fixed numbers as it will not work. What's the chance in winning in the lottery tonight? A probability. You cannot take it out, it'll always be there even in most strategical games, RNG does play a role when there's a number which has not got a fixed range (1-3 for example).

Lvl 1 can be lucky whilst Lvl 10 can be unlucky. Probability. SA was made to be a luck skill, let it stay that way. By training the skill, you're reducing the probabilities thus making the chances higher. But it's still a probability so simply luck. You cannot eliminate it.
AQ Epic  Post #: 550
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