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3/27/2012 22:09:41   
Elryn

Custodian (DF)
~War Ideas & Suggestions~


This is the place to post all your war related ideas and suggestions and discuss them.

As general rule, try not to suggest something that would alienate the part of the player base that does not war or wars little. This includes:

  • War rewards be locked out for those without the required wins.

    (N.B. This list may be updated so keep an eye on the first post.)

    quote:



    Er ya. I'm going to put an end to this trend of players suggesting on having wars instead of how to improve them. Any further posts that is NOT RELATED to the thread's topic will be deleted. We're all trying to focus on improving how Wars can be sped up - with certain rules and conditions to consider, and probably debatable based on how strong your argument is - and not how many more wars of different kinds we should have.

    If you do want a war, you can create a thread in the AQ Suggestions main forum itself. But as always, read the rules and "FSI, What Not To Post" first so you do not violate of them; which would lead to your thread getting locked.

    Thanks.

    -GASKAL-


    Suggest away.


    List of Implemented War Suggestions
    1) Choice of do-able waves
    2) Rewarding Titles to players based on war-kill-count
    3) War-only-armours
    4) Momentum: more kill-streak equals higher momentum buff, equals easier battles (and ability to save momentum-streak based on last-saved location)

    < Message edited by Rorshach -- 7/14/2016 11:18:12 >
    • AQ  Post #: 1
    3/27/2012 22:16:41   
    Mystical Warrior
    Helpful!


    		 Well I was kinda planning on putting my idea in my suggestion thread but this place will be better. Now then:

    Would it be possible to setup a system similar to shooting [put monster here] wherein instead of giving us the option of shooting monsters for additional damage the game will detect the kills we already have similar in DF then give the players a subsequent damage boost which caps out of course. With this no player will be alienated since they can still get the rewards even if they don't participate in the war. Even if they participate little they get some little bonus in terms of additional damage.

    Edit: I think the boost may be possible since I see the new trigger for the temp weapon in Flaming Undead war to be more complicated since its trigger works while in war.

    < Message edited by Mystical Warrior -- 3/27/2012 22:33:29 >
    AQ DF AQW  Post #: 2
    3/27/2012 22:42:46   
    battlesiege15
    Member

    		would it be feasible to have a tiny gold boost for... let's say about a 100 or so kills? not too big of a gold boost though. Maybe just the biggest treasure chest possible (depending on level)? This should be voluntary of course. Sort of like the Dragon Blade Quest where you can choose whether you want it or not. This may give a little more motivation for people (esp non-Guardians) to war on.

    Of course, this should be applied for wars with no guardian missions...

    or is this idea too absurd?
    AQ AQW  Post #: 3
    3/27/2012 22:45:07   
    Mystical Warrior
    Helpful!


    		 Gold boost can be mostly done if the staff alter the rewards of the monsters in the war itself. But requiring a certain number of kills before getting the boost would be quite impossible to code since there are thousands of players that participates in the war.

    < Message edited by Mystical Warrior -- 3/27/2012 22:46:26 >
    AQ DF AQW  Post #: 4
    3/27/2012 23:23:10   
    Avoleii Evanesca
    Member

    		I will quote what I said in the general discussion thread:
    quote:

    quote:

    I am not a late war participant. I just gave up on this war. So I'm more of a deserter that leaves and comes back to take the credit when everything is done.

    It's these kind of guys that makes warmongers' blood boil. I'm glad that we're destined to win this war, cause if IRL, one person can make a difference between victory and defeat.(I guess that better suits timed-wars then)
    quote:

    ...I'd just like to see a few more incentive granting devices offered during wars... ~Phrixus

    I'd like so as well, anything to help ease those who actually wants participate. That ranged bonus was a good step towards that, but seeing that not every build opts for ranged attacks, I wish that we could see ways to benefit the melee warriors and magic mages as well..
    quote:

    ...No matter how one looks at it, it is generally far more profitable and time efficient to just ignore the war(*true that), there is no penalty for non participation, you gain the same rewards as if you participated regardless and you can achieve better xp/gold ratio to time spent by ignoring the war. In a perfect world by looking at the logic of this everyone would cease participation in the war, by doing so the war meter wouldn't need to be modified to allow the war to last a week due to lack of participation and people with MWP and Guard Towers could send their armies/guards after capping gold/xp to overcap and gain more efficient and effective use of their estates, eventually the war would won by army/guard kills alone increasing the use of estates and everyone could get the rewards since they won't go rare and nothing special is given for participation. Perhaps if everyone did this the staff would see the logic in rewarding participation, even if for some reason they can't we would still gain by getting more effective use of our estates during the war. Even though I am busy with Full time study, a part time job and other recreational fitness activities I could still find time to put in a few waves, but lately I haven't been bothered to participate that much since to me it seems as if the staff refuse to reward us for our participation while rewarding others for their lack of participation with better xp/gold to time ratios by farming elsewhere while still getting the rewards.

    @ Elryn
    A simple reward such as an alternate shop with the same items but with a extra mastercraft bonus for war participants would be nice, I am sure they would even be glad to pay the extra cost an item incurs for being mastercraft. The extra mastercraft ability could be something simple such as extra bth, weapon or special damage etc. One can wish can't they... ~Ghengis

    I've been waiting for someone to say this in a long time.. perhaps access to another shop with the same items but mastercrafted, so those who actually did some battles, like say, at least 50-100(personal/guard/army kills) can opt to purchase the mastercrafted versions instead. What's with participating 5-10 minutes a day for the 2 weeks the war goes? I can vouch for those players who say that they are busy themselves but still find time to participate in the war. I even got 1000+ kills on each of my 4 characters despite my tight schedule. Imma thinking a little time-loyalty to the game shouldn't go unrewarded.
    quote:

    Remember that, for war ideas to be feasible, they must not be inherently alienating to those who do not participate in war or participate little. Ideas like placing a minimum required amount of wins to get the rewards are a no go... ~Elryn

    Yeah, I agree with those Elryn, it's unfair to those who are truly busy, but it's unfair too for those who exerted the real effort needed so that those who were busy could still get the chance to obtain the rewards. Like they suggested, perhaps an alternate MC version wouldn't hurt, I'm sure of that...

    Now, make no mistake, I'm not saying that we should deny access to the war rewards to those who never participated in the war, but I'm suggesting an incentive to those who exerted the valiant effort in helping make victory possible(given that in a theoretical situation where if everyone followed the logic of not participating, relying on others instead to do all the work, the meter would stay 0% forever). As been mentioned, perhaps a trophy misc for participation or an alternate MC version of the reward items would suffice?




    Post #: 5
    3/27/2012 23:25:17   
    Mystical Warrior
    Helpful!


    		 @Avoleii Something similar has already been suggested. I think the response of the staff was somewhere like making 2 separate rewards would be better used on other releases.
    AQ DF AQW  Post #: 6
    3/27/2012 23:34:16   
    Artus
    Member

    		Diferent set of monsters, like a 3 monsters in a row or even 4 without a heal.
    I also like the one rare random monster with extra gold (like in mq) or exp or even with no hp (like a random chest in a monster form) :P
    Game variants of existing minigames that count in the war meter.
    Weather status (like the snowglobe misc) could be sandstorms, rain, extreme wind but only in the battlefield, wich btw could be recycled in many ways (armors, spells, weps...).


    AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 7
    3/27/2012 23:41:51   
    Mystical Warrior
    Helpful!


    		 @Artus

    quote:

    Diferent set of monsters, like a 3 monsters in a row or even 4 without a heal.

    The closest we can get to this is guardian missions which is separate for the normal waves.

    quote:

    Game variants of existing minigames that count in the war meter.

    This may not be feasible given that AQ's game engine is different from the other AE games.

    quote:

    I also like the one rare random monster with extra gold (like in mq) or exp or even with no hp (like a random chest in a monster form) :P

    I think this has been done in the Wyvern Riders war where in a wave you fight 3 normal monster and 1 strong monster. Although each win still only counts as 1 win for the war.

    quote:

    Weather status (like the snowglobe misc) could be sandstorms, rain, extreme wind but only in the battlefield, wich btw could be recycled in many ways (armors, spells, weps...).

    May not be feasible. The closest we can get to this is if the monster sets up a passive ability that simulates those weathers.
    AQ DF AQW  Post #: 8
    3/27/2012 23:53:38   
    Avoleii Evanesca
    Member

    quote:

    @Avoleii Something similar has already been suggested. I think the response of the staff was somewhere like making 2 separate rewards would be better used on other releases.

    That settles it then.. I'm totally ignoring the next war. I don't see any reason to waste many hours of my time knowing that we'll all have the same rewards in the end. At least now I know, I'll save myself more time for more useful purposes in the future. My only regret is that I cannot take back the time spent already in the last couple of wars I've participated in, particularly the most recent one...





    Post #: 9
    3/27/2012 23:56:18   
    Mystical Warrior
    Helpful!


    		 @Avoleii The problem in the separate rewards idea is that it alienates part of the player database. Which is what the staff does not want to happen.

    < Message edited by Mystical Warrior -- 3/28/2012 0:43:24 >
    AQ DF AQW  Post #: 10
    3/28/2012 4:15:51   
    Dragoon23
    Legendary AK!!!


    		 I completely disagree with the war rewards being kills related. People shouldn't be penalized just because they can't spend hours at a game like warmongers could. For people who can rack up a high kill count, congrats, but other people simply do not have the proper equipment/stats/time to match you and shouldn't be punished for it. Real life will always take priority over a game.

    War suggestions:
    Increased gold/exp rewards and less tanks.
    Post #: 11
    3/28/2012 4:34:47   
    Mystical Warrior
    Helpful!


    		 @Dragoon23 Which is why the separate reward thing is not a good idea. As for the increased gold and exp, the most possible thing that happens is that when they release the war the monster rewards will already have the boost and be removed when the war is over.
    AQ DF AQW  Post #: 12
    3/28/2012 4:38:56   
    Dragoon23
    Legendary AK!!!


    		 I wonder if it would be possible to have a war only gold/exp boost like what we see during Frostval with its blanket gold boost or do each monster have to be adjusted manually.
    Post #: 13
    3/28/2012 4:41:41   
    Mystical Warrior
    Helpful!


    		 I think it's more on the manually adjusting side
    AQ DF AQW  Post #: 14
    3/28/2012 7:02:48   
    Ghengis
    Member

    		As per private discussion with BlackAces, I mentioned that the war rewards don't have to be 2 fold they can be the same item but retain a warmonger bonus like guardianship bonus or a mastercraft bonus. To achieve this all one needs to do is participate in the war and rack up a small amount of kills (this is to cater towards the casual player as well as any participation no mater how small helps) so that when they purchase the war reward they can get this added bonus. Those who don't participate in the war will still receive access to the item and the item will not be any weaker than a standard item of its level. For example lets say the warmonger bonus equated to an added 2 power levels to the item, so player A who did not participate in the war buys a level 130 item for an x amount of gold getting a level 130 item with a power level of 130 while player B who participated in the war buys the same level 130 item which due to participation gained a warmonger bonus paying x gold + war kills for the item gaining a level 130 item with a power level of 132.

    With this both those who participate in the war and those that don't, both get access to the same item except the warmonger gains a small boost to power, paying for it with participation aka war kills. Now I have heard how the staff don't wish to alienate the players by making them not feel that they have to participate in wars, the above solutions fixes it for they still get the same item minus the small boost that they were unable to pay for. Besides I find it funny how the staff claim that they don't want to alienate those who don't want to participate but feel happy enough to alienate the warmongers whom show there dedication towards AQ time and time again. I also find it funny how it's acceptable to lose out on war rewards because of peoples lack of participation in losable wars but when you follow that same logic and apply it to the current situation (losing out on rewards due to lack of participation) it becomes some kind of taboo subject. If you compare my idea to a limited time shop where items are temporarily discounted in price but once the time limit is up the price is increased to full, the comparison to my idea is that by participating in the war during its limited time you can get the item with a warmonger bonus (this would be like buying the item at a cheaper price since you don't have to pay for the bonus) once the war is over and you didn't participate (meaning you don't gain the bonus) the item is a normal item of it's level in your hands.

    It is my hope the staff can see the logic in my argument and find some way to reward war participation otherwise to us players it just seems that the staff are being biased towards warmongers happy to alienate the warmongers while catering towards the non participants. If the staff still feel so strongly about this alienation business then why not re-release all the rares and frostval items including the limited time items that people could not participate in getting due to "legitimate reasons", why not just make seasonal rares accessible all the time cause who knows players may not be able to access items during the times they are available due to "legitimate reasons"... The same reason why the staff tend not to re-release frostval items, rares, seasonal rares and limited time items that are meant to go rare, should be part of the foundation that gives the staff reason to reward participation and war efforts.

    Well that's just my 10 cents worth, I am sorry if I didn't put forth what I was trying to say clearly and as elegantly as I wanted to, but I am sure I have gotten the general points of my argument across.
    Post #: 15
    3/28/2012 7:10:11   
    Mystical Warrior
    Helpful!


    		 @Genghis I already suggested something similar before. Wherein an armor powers up depending on kills. So I guess your idea is similar to mine albeit that yours only requires minimum kills. As for the discussion that took place about detecting whether the character participated in the war can be seen in this link
    AQ DF AQW  Post #: 16
    3/28/2012 7:25:17   
    Ghengis
    Member

    		Indeed it is similar :) The only major differences being that there is no need to update it to change per war, since the item would only require to read the requirements for the bonus from the war it was bought in, the items bonus will also be useable outside of wars, and the bonus is separate from guardian bonus and mastercraft bonus and is paid for by participation in the war it originated in only and cannot be activated by participating in a different war.
    Post #: 17
    3/28/2012 7:31:52   
    Dragoon23
    Legendary AK!!!


    		 @Ghengis: What exactly is "small amount of kills"? I found the average individual kills from TRB1965's kill count was ~356 kills which sounds way too much to be 'small' imo. And if we take all the 1000+ kills people out (about 17), that still leaves up with an average of about ~130 which again sounds a bit big for 'small'.

    Referring to loseable wars and warmongers:
    This is different from a loseable war: A loseable war means that everyone is penalized equally. With war rewards depending on war kills, a majority is penalized while a minority enjoys benefits.
    Warmongers are a minority and I believe the staff have said that they aim to satisfy the majority rather than the minority.



    < Message edited by Dragoon23 -- 3/28/2012 7:33:31 >
    Post #: 18
    3/28/2012 7:35:15   
    Mystical Warrior
    Helpful!


    		 @Dragoon23 What Genghis is saying that even if you don't participate in the war you will still get the same reward as the ones that participated although the ones that did participate will get a power boost similar to how ballyhoo bonuses work
    AQ DF AQW  Post #: 19
    3/28/2012 7:41:07   
    Dragoon23
    Legendary AK!!!


    		 "To achieve this all one needs to do is participate in the war and rack up a small amount of kills" -Ghengis

    ^ this part is what interests/concerns me. exactly what is a small amount of kills.

    And you don't get the same reward: You get a weaker one than the warmonger one, which is what Avoleii was suggesting also if I'm interpreting both correctly.

    < Message edited by Dragoon23 -- 3/28/2012 7:42:43 >
    Post #: 20
    3/28/2012 7:45:42   
    Mystical Warrior
    Helpful!


    		 @Dragoon23 I interpreted that part as long as the war exist in your record. So it can be 0 char kills but has army/guard wins. You do get the same reward, and the the one you got ain't weaker in terms of standards since it will be on standard. The armor will work the same way as how Solaris does with its guardian boost perks, with that example can you say that the one adventurers get is weaker? I'd say no since it still has the same attack power as the one with guardian perk although for the guardian ones you unlock skills. So having kills will work the same
    AQ DF AQW  Post #: 21
    3/28/2012 8:01:41   
    Ghengis
    Member

    quote:

    A loseable war means that everyone is penalized equally.


    That is incorrect, in a losable war those who put the time and effort in, are penalized by the fact that for all there effort they didn't get what the rewards they were working towards, while those whom didn't participate and put in any effort or time towards the war gain an equivalent reward to the effort they put in nothing. No matter how you look at it those who participated are at the negative end of the scale with wasted time and effort while those who didn't participate end up even with a balanced scale.

    As for a small amount of kills, I don't understand how you went from small to over 100 kills... I was thinking more along the lines of killing enough monsters to equate to 2-3 days worth of short lunch breaks so about 15-30 minutes worth of game play over the entire war ( this is just what I would place it at, it can be subject to change at the discretion of what the staff feel fair to what would count as casual game play). Considering a war lasts about a week, 2-3 days worth of 5-10 minute lunch breaks just to put effort into the war adds up if it gets all active players to participate and may bring some people out of retirement just to play during the wars just in case if in the future they decide to play AQ in a greater capacity then they are currently, they would have the items with the warmonger bonus ready and waiting for them for their next item upgrade cycle.

    quote:

    quote:

    The next problem becomes what determines how much is required to pay for a boost in terms of kills.

    Think of it in terms of the limited time shop how some items are temporarily discounted yet go to full price once time has passed. The limited time for the discount in price can equate to the participation in the war, except instead of a price cut we gain a boost in power. Once the war is over it equates to the limited time discount being over. Basically with the limited time shop you get a discount in price so you pay cheaper for more power but once the discount is over you pay the normal amount for the power of the item, with my idea you pay a normal amount during the limited time when you participate but get a slightly stronger item, once the war is over the items price stays the same but the bonus power is not present due to lack of participation so you end up paying what the item is worth. If we model the warmonger bonus around the same idea as the limited time shop then it should work out considering wars are not all that common.


    < Message edited by Ghengis -- 3/28/2012 8:22:38 >
    Post #: 22
    4/1/2012 23:05:48   
    Ghengis
    Member

    		As Mystical Warrior said:

    quote:

    I interpreted that part as long as the war exist in your record. So it can be 0 char kills but has army/guard wins. You do get the same reward, and the the one you got ain't weaker in terms of standards since it will be on standard. The armor will work the same way as how Solaris does with its guardian boost perks, with that example can you say that the one adventurers get is weaker? I'd say no since it still has the same attack power as the one with guardian perk although for the guardian ones you unlock skills. So having kills will work the same


    So in essence non warmongers pay x gold for item power level 130 a warmonger would pay the same amount for the same level item except the participation unlocks the bonus, hence why participation (which I equated to being similar to the limited time) would pay for/unlock the warmonger bonus (the warmonger bonus would equate to the discount from the limited time shop but instead of it being in cheaper gold cost in regards to power of the item the bonus would be a small boost to power, in essence to simplify this further, in the limited time shop once the limited time is over the gold cost increases to the items normal power level, but in regards to warmonger items the extra power boost is removed so that the price of the item matches the items normal power level so non warmongers would be left paying the correct amount for the item).

    And if you factor in the precedence for the limited time shop, the bonus's for items in regards to them being special like Ballyhoo, guardian account etc, the Solaris Plate mechanics how the item is considered balanced for both adventurers and guardians yet they both pay the same cost, if you factor all this in, then the idea of rewarding war participation doesn't seem all that far fetches or not doable... Just as with the Solaris plate the rewards will remain the same cost to warmongers and non participants alike except that participation would be rewarded with a bonus that is unlocked on the item paid for participation while non participants would have an item that is of equal power level to the cost in gold they paid.

    Meh I hope I am explaining myself and the concept properly... I am not sure I am getting it across correctly.

    Posted edited.

    ~Aces



    < Message edited by BlackAces -- 4/1/2012 23:09:10 >
    Post #: 23
    4/4/2012 0:54:53   
    Artus
    Member

    		@Mystical Warrior

    There are already some minigames in AQ (one pacman like with twigg, the one that look like doom, one where you throw twigg...) therefore with some minor changes they could be implemented in wars and when I suggested weather like the snow already in game, one that hurts both sides I guess that may be done with current engine and If those kind of ideas canīt be done, then the name of this tread should change to what can AQ engine do in wars? :P
    AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 24
    4/4/2012 4:02:31   
      Rorshach

    The Question
    (AdventureQuest)


    		 Facts:
    (1) Those who participate.
    (2) Those who partially participate.
    (3) Those who do not participate.

    Since the first post already clarified that we can't go on about reward-more or rewarding-less, we'll just have to bury the hatchet and hold our contempt.
    Yes, I'm one of those who only participate when I have spare.

    Onto suggestion.

    Considering how the other AE games fare in their wars, we could possibly gauge on how AQ can improve it's wars to be more appealing to the masses. I'm going to asumme that those who aren't as interested in the war as warmongers themselves are not as 'on', is because of how rather boring the wars are fought.

    DF and MQ for example are walk-arounds, along with AQW.

    DF and AQW both have their wars fought with a few slew of enemies before them to defeat. For DF, it takes about ~3 turns to kill off one enemy. And usually there are about ~7 enemies per wave.
    AQW on the other hand is MMO, so you have a lot of people playing together to defeat the enemy. This of course, will take additional time since it's more interactive and monsters would generally take up about ~10 seconds to be slain.
    ### Both DF and AQW war system; especially AQW, is more appealing since there is somewhat more interaction. Secondly, DF actually counts the number of waves you've completed. ###

    MQ on the other hand is similar to AQ, but with a mix of DF. It's warring system is like that of AQ (but with actualy numbers on how the war is progressing), but the battles are like that of DF, where the monsters are easily defeated in ~3 turns.
    ### What makes MQ a little more appealing than AQ is that don't require so many turns to defeat the enemies, hence causing the wars to move at a faster pace. This may (or may not), inspire players to participate more. ###

    Some suggestions and thoughts, using the ideas from the other games to inspire how wars can be fought "better".

    1] - Adding a player wave-count counter. This allows the players to actually keep track of how many waves they have completed. As such, may inspire players to participate more, instead of having to guess or access their character-page just to see. Of course with TRB's recent wave counter for people who register themselves in it, I'm not sure if this would be useful in the end. But this would be useful for those under Facts (3), as it might show them that they could do more for this war than just sit and wait for rewards.

    2] - It is understood that AQ's monsters cannot be defeated in just a few turns. They can, but not every build or player is able to do so. Mages probably are able to destroy an enemy in 1 or 2 hits. But that doesn't mean Warriors can't, since AQ has it that not all our battles are scaled to our level, but is scaled through a range of levels. So a level 140 can face a level 85 monster, allowing them possibly to 1-hit-KO (not counting PWD special). So we can't suggest for monsters to be made easier, since that's not how AQ works.

    3] - We could add a rare-reward. What do I mean? If I remembered correctly in DF, in the past war before, there were some rewards that players could find, but these weren't end-war-rewards. They were pretty much just extra rewards for those who participate a lot in the war. Now, this suggestion may seem to be towards rewarding based on how much one participates. But no. Rather, these rare-rewards could be found like how one finds the parts of BoA. But with higher chances. So the war could be like salvaging through the enemies, and hence these rare-rewards are rewarded based on chance.

    So the more you battle, the higher the chances of finding them. (I can't put this suggestions across nicely in words, hopefully someone gets the general idea). But I do emphathize that in doing so, it would require more work for the staff to come up with a new item for such a reward. But then again, it doesn't have to be a reward, but could be a treasure chest.

    < Message edited by GASKAL -- 4/4/2012 4:03:24 >
    AQ DF MQ  Post #: 25
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