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RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread

 
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4/27/2012 16:05:48   
Stabilis
Member

I'm thinking... sending Plasma Armour from Cyber Hunters to Tactical Mercenaries, and Mineral Armour from Tactical Mercenaries to Blood Mages to replace Deadly Aim.

quote:

OK, so here are the amalgamations (combinations):

  • Bounty Hunter

  • Tech Mage

  • Mercenary



  • Cyber Hunter = BH + TM

  • Blood Mage = BH + M

  • Tactical Mercenary = TM + M



    Problems:

    -One of Cyber Hunter's passive skills (Plasma Armour) is Mercenary orientated

    -There are 2 uses of Bounty Hunter + Tech Mage hybrids (Cyber Hunter and Blood Mage)

    -Blood Mage is not a descriptive name for a Bounty Hunter + Mercenary hybrid

    -Blood Mage is not only a mage but shares 50% mage skills including the Deadly Aim passive when they should be Mercenary skills

    -Tactical Mercenary uses some Bounty Hunter skills, but other than that... perfect!!!

    Suggestions:

    -Cyber Hunter swaps Plasma Armour and Shadow Arts [weak] for Deadly Aim and/or another passive that is sensitive to a Bounty Hunter + Tech Mage hybrid

    -Blood Mage becomes Armoured Hunter for example and replaces Tech Mage skills with Mercenary skills (including Fireball)

    -Cyber Hunter becomes Bounty Mage for example and gains access to spells

    -Tactical Mercenary is a decent role model!!!


  • Bloodlust + Armour has never been implemented before, so Bloodlust + Mineral Armour should be tested! However, if this passive combo DOES prove to be overpowered, Adrenaline is always an option.

    < Message edited by Depressed Void -- 4/27/2012 18:03:25 >
    AQ Epic  Post #: 451
    4/27/2012 16:52:31   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    quote:

    Blood Mage is not only a mage but shares 50% mage skills including the Deadly Aim passive when they should be Mercenary skills

    Should? Where does it say that? Fact it has some skills off Mercs doesn't mean it should. It has TM skills, including Fireball which is just Physical so we can say it's half-TM skill.
    quote:

    Blood Mage becomes Blood Mercenary for example and replaces Tech Mage skills with Mercenary skills (including Fireball)

    Excuse me, and TLM becomes what? 3 Mercenary classes and 1 Mage class? Lolwhut? They are supposed to be evolved, not TLM being rip off from TMs and "new" BMs being rip off BHs and Mercs.. >.>

    Also if BM is changed, what do you plan on doing with Intimidate? By any definition, it's a nerfer so you cannot have Armor, HP/EP regen and debuffer all at once. CHs might have it but SC isn't counted as passive EP regen as it can block and is quite weak but whatever floats your boat there.
    And Armor + BL, I see it already getting out of hand. Give it max Fireball, max Mineral, max BL, some Heal or something and Str abuse. E Armor + some Tech can suffice, Support is useless, Mineral and 42 Dex (requirement) takes care of Def, and rest into Str and HP to survive. My my, add onto it non-stat improving skills, favour Str builds even more, make game boring and I see even bigger part of game jumping back to BM or quit! Supported! :D

    Lastly, did you miss out the point where Devs said that eventually, there will be unique Ultimate moves for Evolved classes as well as new Multis for them? Then your theory of 'Blood Mercenary' and such is gone.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 452
    4/27/2012 17:31:42   
    Wootz
    Member

    I'm confused. Blood Mercenary? Whaa-
    AQW Epic  Post #: 453
    4/27/2012 18:00:38   
    Stabilis
    Member

    @Trans,

    quote:

    Should? Where does it say that? Fact it has some skills off Mercs doesn't mean it should. It has TM skills, including Fireball which is just Physical so we can say it's half-TM skill.


    Indirectly, yes, should. Blood Mage, as "original" as it may be, would have used skills like Surgical Strike instead of Super Charge if it were designed to be more Mercenary as opposed to Tech Mage which is neither Bounty Hunter nor Mercenary (which should have been the result). So upon the creativeness of whoever assembled the Blood Mage's skill tree, ended up adding multiple "spells", 4 spells in total to be exact... making it more Tech Mage than Mercenary than it should be. It obviously appealed to that person because today we have this Blood Mage figure that is nearly a mirrored Cyber Hunter, a Tech Mage/Bounty Hunter combination with more offence than defence. And so we lost any Bounty Hunter/Mercenary blends.

    quote:

    Excuse me, and TLM becomes what? 3 Mercenary classes and 1 Mage class? Lolwhut? They are supposed to be evolved, not TLM being rip off from TMs and "new" BMs being rip off BHs and Mercs.. >.>


    I should change my one message, from Blood Mercenary to something like Armoured Hunter because yes we would otherwise technically have "3 Mercenaries". However, we do have 4 MAGES. Tech Mage, Blood Mage, Cyber Hunter, and Tactical Mercenary. Spells can be proportional to Tech Mage skills such as Reroute or Malfunction so Cyber Hunter and Tactical Mercenary do count. And no, we would have 3 mage classes, Tech Mage, Cyber Hunter, and Tactical Mercenary. 3 hunter classes, Bounty Hunter, Cyber Hunter, and "Armoured Hunter"... 3 mercenary classes, Mercenary, Tactical Mercenary, Armoured Hunter. And that, my friend, is balance with creativity intact. "Supposed to be evolved"- yes, evolved. It can and should include successful traits of the classics and make the synergy work. Just like how Tactical Mercenaries have the older Hybrid Armour model and Reroute. Apparently it works so the balance team agrees and right now I do as well. Tactical Mercenaries are not a complete ripoff of Tech Mages to note, they do share the one passive and ultimate of Mercenaries and that is what counts. Even Field Commander. I'm lovin' it. So I would scratch the whole Blood Mage topic and work it towards a more Mercenary approach. Like I said, Cyber Hunters fulfill the role of the Bounty Hunter and Tech Mage hybrid. They would need their name changed to Bounty Mage or something of the sort.

    quote:

    Also if BM is changed, what do you plan on doing with Intimidate? By any definition, it's a nerfer so you cannot have Armor, HP/EP regen and debuffer all at once. CHs might have it but SC isn't counted as passive EP regen as it can block and is quite weak but whatever floats your boat there.
    And Armor + BL, I see it already getting out of hand. Give it max Fireball, max Mineral, max BL, some Heal or something and Str abuse. E Armor + some Tech can suffice, Support is useless, Mineral and 42 Dex (requirement) takes care of Def, and rest into Str and HP to survive. My my, add onto it non-stat improving skills, favour Str builds even more, make game boring and I see even bigger part of game jumping back to BM or quit! Supported! :D


    Cannot is not a term I use in physics (apparently creating a black hole is possible on earth)... we should definitely test Intimidate with Bloodlust and Mineral Armour or Adrenaline. There is no game breaking synergy there from what I can see. I do not see Intimidate making Bloodlust or Armour powerful ever. I see that you were quick to jump ahead and say Mineral Armour and Bloodlust together would be chaotic or overpowered. Let's look at it this way:

    Mineral Armour gives Defense, right? With bonus Defence, Dexterity would be less ideal... reducing Primary accuracy. Bloodlust accounts on damage dealt, Mineral Armour does not aid damage dealt, therefor no enhanced synergy. However, the class would be a working ranged weapon class with potentially Strength or Support. And ranged weapons have cooldowns, so how would that be abusive? The class would have a significant weakness to melee.

    "Give it max Fireball, max Mineral, max BL, some Heal or something and Str abuse. E Armor + some Tech can suffice, Support is useless, Mineral and 42 Dex (requirement) takes care of Def, and rest into Str and HP to survive. My my, add onto it non-stat improving skills, favour Str builds even more, make game boring and I see even bigger part of game jumping back to BM or quit! Supported! :D"- There is no Fireball in a Bounty Hunter/Mercenary hybrid to start with. Attack skills would include: Either Smokescreen or Intimidate, Cheap Shot, Multi-Shot, Stun Grenade, and Venom Strike (or Poison Grenade), Massacre or a new ultimate, Double Strike, Bunker Buster or Plasma Cannon, Maul, and Atom Smasher. A wide selection of skills to work with. That helps with synergy by tons. This class has limited energy so exploiting Strength and Health would leave skills at 1-2 charges at the max. Blood Mage passes away especially with the disappearance of Deadly Aim and Fireball so there would be no chance to exploit Strength like Blood Mages do right now. Exploit melee skills you say? Like I said, with the lack of Dexterity this class will not fully utilize the Primary weapon since Resistance will be forgotten.

    quote:

    Lastly, did you miss out the point where Devs said that eventually, there will be unique Ultimate moves for Evolved classes as well as new Multis for them? Then your theory of 'Blood Mercenary' and such is gone.


    No, I did not forget that "eventually" there will be no more "ultimate skills", for "evolved" classes as well as "multis" for "them". If my theory is gone, then I must be crazy but people are giving it attention like I give anyone's theory my open-minded attention.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 454
    4/27/2012 18:16:58   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    I only moved the fact about "Blood Mercenary", I don't need an explanation that we got 4 Mages. It's just how you said it earlier, that it should have Mercenary skills. >.>

    Well no game breaking synergy with Intimidate + Armor + BL? So why did TLMs lose Smoke whilst having Armor and Reroute? Lowering Str ~= raising your own defences = Dex/Malf debuffing (you either take less damage with Intimidate or deal more with Malf/Smoke). Same thing.
    Reducing Primary accuracy.. Show me a BM that uses high Dex with high Str so he won't miss. And not Dex build that uses Multi + Overload or anything. Game is built on luck, there's no need for accuracy things as they are simply luck and whether Bludgeon misses or not, they can make up for the damage next turn.

    DA swapped for Mineral. +10 damage is most from DA & Mineral gives +11 Def. 1 damage = 1 defence, so it's like a very small buff actually. I don't see a difference here other than giving them way to Tank and just getting less damage from a Gun.
    quote:

    There is no Fireball in a Bounty Hunter/Mercenary hybrid to start with. Attack skills would include: Either Smokescreen or Intimidate, Cheap Shot, Multi-Shot, Stun Grenade, and Venom Strike (or Poison Grenade), Massacre or a new ultimate, Double Strike, Bunker Buster or Plasma Cannon, Maul, and Atom Smasher.

    What are you on about? We're discussing Blood Mages, where did you get BHs or Mercs from?
    quote:

    This class has limited energy so exploiting Strength and Health would leave skills at 1-2 charges at the max. Blood Mage passes away especially with the disappearance of Deadly Aim and Fireball so there would be no chance to exploit Strength like Blood Mages do right now.

    Yes, it's limited yet they still use 2 skills and win. Your point? So taking Fireball and DA out.. Blood Mage is focused on Str, what do you want to put there instead? It's a Str focused Class, you cannot just tweak it to your liking because you "think" it's right.
    quote:

    Like I said, with the lack of Dexterity this class will not fully utilize the Primary weapon since Resistance will be forgotten.

    They utilize it already, what's your point?! <_< Game is built on luck, where do you see accuracy making a big difference if they will have 42 + whatever bonuses they get from weapons due to Mineral? They already have about the same amount so I see no change in accuracy.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 455
    4/27/2012 18:39:58   
    Arevero
    Member

    First of all, ED attempted to add luck so it will balance out the fair 5 lvl range difference, without luck, some lower lvls would lose or win. It depends mostly on luck when it comes to winning a person with a higher lvl above you.

    Secondly, I have discussed over and over again about Balance Team's unreasonableness, often comes down to buff-->nerf-->buff-->HUGE NERF in the end, i record the several changes they made, and none were really successful, but Trans, may i remind you, we wanted a passive, a buff, BUT DID WE SAY A TANK-ISH PASSIVE ARMOR BUFF? No i think, they could have given us DA, afterall we are Hunters, feeble as we may be, we are savage when it comes to a face to face match.
    But Trans, i will support you IF they say PA cannot be removed, because that's just deadline, try go argue with BT/Mods, and see the outcome, convincing much? Either we need a REALLY GOOD REASON, or nothing.

    Thirdly, I STRONGLY, want to know, who are the Balance Team, from where their abilities earned them to become the 'Balance Team', if it is a team of players(long-term...) then i'd stand down and watch if they can make any successful balance changes, if it is NOT a player team, then how do they know what we are experiencing, I can bet people who are Commanders or Warlords or Heroes out there have better knowledge of what Balance is. Just want to know the truth.

    Lastly i always thought that Cyber, Blood, and Tact were meant to be evolved classes as Trans said, BUT the Balance Team said they were only to add more variety into the game, so no Good/evolved/better class there.

    @Trans and Depressed, what exactly are you both discussing? O.o
    AQ DF MQ  Post #: 456
    4/27/2012 18:45:28   
    Stabilis
    Member

    @Trans,

    One moment please while I search the Design Notes about Tactical Mercenary's recent balance changes.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 457
    4/27/2012 18:54:44   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    Well Arevero, then all we can do is simply.. wait!
    And what we're discussing? Apparently new class, Blood Mercenary. :O
    AQ Epic  Post #: 458
    4/27/2012 19:02:17   
    Arevero
    Member

    Blood mercenary..WHAAAATTtttt???

    Then there better be another 2 new classes to make up 9 classes :D
    AQ DF MQ  Post #: 459
    4/27/2012 19:05:20   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    Nope. It's apparently renamed Blood Mage as it has Merc skills instead and Void's suggestion is to make them more Merc-like. I have no idea either. >.>
    AQ Epic  Post #: 460
    4/27/2012 19:06:56   
    Arevero
    Member

    Confused...

    Limit three smilies per post. ~TG

    < Message edited by The Game -- 4/27/2012 23:59:09 >
    AQ DF MQ  Post #: 461
    4/27/2012 19:10:05   
    Stabilis
    Member

    Armoured Hunter.

    And Cyber Hunter would then be a Bounty Mage.

    Then we have class-type balance.



    Still searching these darn notes.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 462
    4/27/2012 19:13:05   
    Arevero
    Member

    Ok...

    So far i have ABSOLUTELY what's going on and if it's necessary, so i'll just wait and see what you and Trans get up to...
    AQ DF MQ  Post #: 463
    4/27/2012 19:15:29   
    Zeoth
    Member

    I'm so confused which is why I have basically refrained from posting until now. Depressed normally your long posts are easy to understand. But you have me completely lost here.
    Post #: 464
    4/27/2012 23:58:04   
    ScarletReaper
    Member

    Is it just me, or did switching berzerker for bludgeon on bm not make much difference at all? If you are gonna nerf their strength build, do it right. My suggestion, make fireball improve with dex. Problem solved.
    DF AQW Epic  Post #: 465
    4/27/2012 23:58:39   
    drinde
    Member

    @Scarlet

    Why not Support?
    DF MQ Epic  Post #: 466
    4/28/2012 0:13:58   
    ScarletReaper
    Member

    because that would make the skill pretty useless. At least with dex you could use overload, fireball combo.
    DF AQW Epic  Post #: 467
    4/28/2012 0:17:00   
    Stabilis
    Member

    @Drinde,


    Support would definitely lower the power when you consider all of Blood Mage's skills.

    Although, exploiting Support is easy when there are offensive skills that improve by it. Add Bloodlust and we have Fireball and Auxiliary that can alternate high damage with increased Support luck (critical hits!). Dexterity on Blood Mage's Fireball will pose as the opposite of Plasma Bolt, that improves by Technology.

    In general though, both bolts have incredibly high damage for their costs. I think that they could do well off with a power nerf.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 468
    4/28/2012 0:22:32   
    drinde
    Member

    Yes. I did wonder why the Developers removed the STR Requirement for that skill, makes for Tanking abuse.

    Rage Revamp Idea:

    Now, Rage is based on the defense that you base your attack on. Most people would attack one's weaker side, causing them to gain little rage.

    I say that it increases WITHOUT having to rely on the damage inflicted and how much was resisted, instead, rage accumulates regardless of whether an attack hits.

    I also say that there should be a Recoil to high DMGers. If one is hit by more than 40 DMG in a single turn, he/she should get 25% DMG inflicted to the assailant. This would reduce the burst DMGer's power.
    DF MQ Epic  Post #: 469
    4/28/2012 0:25:42   
    PivotalDisorder
    Member

    do not like the recoil idea, unless it is an actual skill. No need to nerf power builds completely into oblivion :)

    I still like the idea of parry, a block that only reduces the damage rather than stopping it entirely. like a deflect but for melee hits.
    of course you could also do critical parries, like critical deflects :)
    Post #: 470
    4/28/2012 2:49:56   
    Arevero
    Member

    I think we have enough luck-related things, please we do not want every dmg to another player be weakened, that will kinda ruin the match with blocks/deflects/crits/parry all over it. xD

    Now about Void's recoil idea, not that bad, but most BMs deal above 40, but can i ask, is it melee related or range related or skill related or all 3. And perhaps reduce the % to 20.
    AQ DF MQ  Post #: 471
    4/28/2012 2:59:22   
    rayniedays56
    Member

    And my retort...rawr....


    :) So so so so so nice of an idea guys,


    I will edit this when I am done...LOL
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 472
    4/28/2012 3:00:47   
    Joe10112
    Member

    Personally nerfing each bolt by like 10 damage wouldn't be too bad...
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 473
    4/28/2012 3:03:19   
    Arevero
    Member

    -10dmg seems good enough, but keep in mind the lowered lvls, they can barely do 20dmg with plasma bolt, with -10, they can only do 10 or less.
    AQ DF MQ  Post #: 474
    4/28/2012 4:14:16   
    Laufey
    Member
     

    to complete the work lacks only a good weapon physics with these statistics:

    dex +11
    tech +4
    supp +11

    Even people like me who is a TLM high support will be happy.

    Sorry for google translate

    Nazgul
    Post #: 475
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