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RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread

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4/16/2012 13:08:27   
Ranloth
Banned


 Dex? Oh, so you prefer Dex CHs who have Multi, block and hit more (accuracy), get really high Defence, gets E Shield that's really high with Dex? That was my point to go for Tech. I know it's Resistance now but what do you suggest? Dex will make Tanks able to abuse it, Support and Matrix is OP, Strength makes no sense or whatsoever, hence Tech is the best choice.
If you want to make something better, technology-wise, surely you need more knowledge in that department? Meaning more Tech? ;) *point - Technology makes sense*
AQ Epic  Post #: 101
4/16/2012 13:10:43   
rayniedays56
Member

@ Trans.


Exactly, because PA has a requirement of 43 tech. PA improves resistance.
Miner Armor has a requirement of...43? dex. MA improves defense
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 102
4/16/2012 15:59:13   
Stabilis
Member

We could try an Energy Shield that improves with Technology, since the following Technology skills: EMP and Plasma Grenade

Are less than 3 skills (3 out of 12 skills being 25% of the skill tree, completely balanced), and they have no synergy whatsoever so there is no problem there.


The other possibility for keeping Energy Shield, is letting it improve by Support, and have Malfunction improve by Dexterity instead of Support. If we change Malfunction to improve by Dexterity then the powerful offence/defence synergy of Malfunction and the 2 power shields (DM/ES). Normally the energy costs and turns taken to use the 3 skills would not be a problem, but Cyber Hunters have Static Charge so energy is less of a conflict. Also, freely choosing between Defense Matrix and Energy Shield can completely cancel out a Smokescreen or Malfunction. The 2 shields have the same duration as the 2 nerf skills so dominating players using the nerf skills would be simple really. Changing Malfunction entails a couple of things:


  1. Tech Mages are affected.
  2. Tech Mages will only have 1 skill that improves by Support, which would be Defense Matrix.


So, at the same Malfunction would be improving by Dexterity, I would also change Technician to improve by Support. Now Tech Mages have 2 Support improving skills that can be used defensively. Technician for Support Tech Mages would grant them the ability to use ranged weapons more effectively (Sidearm and Auxiliary), and cast Plasma Bolt and Supercharge more effectively, and using Robots I suppose.

There is no longer a synergy of Auxiliary and Malfunction for Tech Mages and Cyber Hunters, so extreme Auxiliaries and Defense Matrix mixes are now balanced. Overload and Malfunction now both improve by Dexterity, and this can be an issue. I would recommend reducing the rate at which Overload improves in damage by. Stunning is totally unreliable, and in that uncertainty, a first turn Malfunction and a second turn Overload stun can result in a 2 or 3 turn kill. I would recommend comparing Overload and Stun Grenade, and find the right damage fit.

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot to add, Smokescreen and Malfunction would be polar opposites, giving Smokescreen as much of a chance as Malfunction does since right now Malfunction can be used to reduce Smokescreen, but not vice-versa.

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 4/16/2012 16:01:26 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 103
4/16/2012 16:09:03   
Ranloth
Banned


 I'm pretty sure you can have 2 separate skills - Venom of CHs had lower requirements to those of BHs, IIRC. Not sure if that's changed but it was the case before so possibility of TMs having current Malf and CHs having 'new' one would be possible.
Also why not Conduction? Improves by nothing and takes more Res off than Malf but doesn't affect stats? ;) xD But really, not my biased point of view, either can work - new Malf that'd be separate from TM skill-tree so old Malf has Support for TMs, or Conduction that improves by nothing. But wouldn't Dex Malf + Multi give too much of a synergy? Give in highish Tech for Energy Shield and you have defences covered, EMP could get out of hand but not much different from now so we may ignore it in this case only, and damage would come from skill alone which renders weapons a bit useless because Focus 5 build could be done which relies on Bot. With old SC or yours Void, they'd have choice of investing in Strength for higher EP regen or invest in Support if we go by your idea - so they have choice of higher damage on Primary + Gun and Energy regen OR better Matrix, Aux and luck-based skills which are neglible.

Technican and Support? Any more changes and TM will end up on the other end of the stick - they are balanced if we not count Beta abusers and shifting their improving stats just like they were on Friday may make them weaker. It's like touching BHs skill tree to shift few things around. Both classes are balanced, tweaking them further for better will make it worse. Murphy's Law.

I'm not disagreeing with your ideas but feel like detailed feedback is necessary.
AQ Epic  Post #: 104
4/16/2012 16:29:10   
Stabilis
Member

^

If Conduction or changing Malfunction were 2 options I would put Conduction over the change. :D
AQ Epic  Post #: 105
4/16/2012 19:22:47   
Arevero
Member

Either make SC 1cooldown like Joe said, or make it a passive E Lust like BL, except in the form of energy, either way we cannot have 3 or over cooldowns, ruins the point of a 0 EP regain ability since it matches the form of FM, we won't be able to heal as much, and our EP will be depleted really quickly, since as CH, we need to use a lot of skills to stay alive.

And about SA, sure CH has a passive, an 'unreliable chance' one. We need a better passive, if we lose PA, pple will start complaining again about a good passive. Either revamp SA, or give us DA, either way each class needs a usable and reliable passive.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 106
4/16/2012 21:08:51   
ScarletReaper
Member

I think replacing malf with conduction would be great.

_____________________________
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 107
4/16/2012 22:01:31   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 @trans That was brought up before(Venom with lower req on CHs than BH) and Ashari confirmed that because of the tier where it was placed on the two classes, one received a lower req because the formulae for the req was based partially on tiering. I believe she and possibly Rabble himself confirmed that changes to one skill will always affect any class with it.

The problem with Conduction is that I feel that a static and unchanging(Curse subtracts support from enemy) defense remover can be OPd or UPd easily if not done right. Compared to Malf it would be much more powerful because Assault would leave someone with less resistance lost than if they just lost tech. It would be a nice buff to most CH builds since they wouldn't bother with support aside from any reqs on skills or weapons to get good resistance removal. Think Dex CH with even more dex because they get more out of their resistance nerf now for less stat points. Static and unchanging skills almost always seem to be a homerun or a strikeout. There is usually no middle ground to it. It either works out for balance decently or it just plain can't be done.

@arevero Most CHs I fight against usually have low energy because they attempt to get all the energy they need from SC. A common belief that many players have is that a build relying on a blockable skill to win isn't usually a good build. I know many people hold that belief with stun builds as well.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 108
4/16/2012 22:07:38   
Joe10112
Member

WHat's this "Conduction" skill? Anyone can give me a quick rundown? I didn't see it mentioned/suggested before.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 109
4/16/2012 22:13:39   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 @joe Check under CH section of the post.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 110
4/16/2012 23:54:00   
Arevero
Member

Deleted.


< Message edited by Arevero -- 4/17/2012 3:10:08 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 111
4/17/2012 1:14:41   
Frost Snake
Member

^ item failed to sell? :p ive sold over 200 items and that hasent happend to me once :3
AQW Epic  Post #: 112
4/17/2012 2:38:39   
Arevero
Member

Deleted post, things fixed, thanks mods.

< Message edited by Arevero -- 4/17/2012 3:09:39 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 113
4/17/2012 2:48:46   
Ranloth
Banned


 I only gave Conduction as an example and based it on Malf. In the end, it's stronger than Malf as it doesn't affect stats so small boost was in due and cutting down maybe EP cost a little.
I will look into it more and edit it, probably cutting EP cost by 2-3 points and giving it a boost of 1-2 Res. This is why I need to check Conduction again and perhaps make it like BloodShield is - 3 different starting values depending on the level range. Which would solve the UP or OP problem as ND has mentioned.
AQ Epic  Post #: 114
4/17/2012 3:15:56   
Arevero
Member

SO allow me to recap our CH fix


FM CS EMP

ES SC DM

ML CO PS

PG MA DA/SA(revamped)/Cyber Arts

So is that what we have discussed so far, any disagreements or i forgot anything?
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 115
4/17/2012 4:11:22   
Ranloth
Banned


 Yep. It's all in my post on 1st page. :P
You mention SA is unreliable passive for CHs, why give it to BMs then? Revamp SA and it's fine, for both CHs and BHs as you can keep EP costs at minimum with it.
I'll update my post with numbers later, Conduction in particular but I'm at school so cannot edit it properly.
AQ Epic  Post #: 116
4/17/2012 5:15:11   
drinde
Member

Um. Reducing RES by 14 seems a tad OP to me.

How about making it % based? Up to 60% at MAX, maybe.
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 117
4/17/2012 5:20:49   
Ranloth
Banned


 14 is OP? Good Malf takes at least 40 Tech, that's -10 Res and affects your deflection rate, enemy's and your skills. That's my reasoning to make it higher than Malf due to just affecting Res.
AQ Epic  Post #: 118
4/17/2012 5:24:31   
Arevero
Member

I hope we aren't trying to nerf a skill here...(conduction and malf thingy)

And keep in mind, conduction MUST be matchable to malf(maybe better, or else no point changing skills), at lv3, 4, 5 or 6, you can't expect CHs to max it out for efficiency, just saying in case you have forgot.


And btw, is BM nerf confirmed this week?
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 119
4/17/2012 6:14:27   
Wootz
Member

quote:

Then with this all said, I introduce to you the Looping Tank Poison Annoying CH Build. (A mouthful).

Add an Massacre loop onto that and you got my build. :P

"Conduction" seems quite fair. As I take more then that much with one of my builds. And it would be nice to have something unique that wouldn't influence the stats. :P
AQW Epic  Post #: 120
4/17/2012 6:23:26   
drinde
Member

STR Killing for CHs.

Massacre -> Surgical Strike. :P

< Message edited by drinde -- 4/17/2012 6:24:48 >
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 121
4/17/2012 8:15:35   
ScarletReaper
Member

^Really? You want 3/6 classes to have that? Massacre needs to stay. that way mercs have surgical strike, hunters have massacre, and mages have supercharge. Makes sense that way. Would be stupid if it was switched.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 122
4/17/2012 9:58:17   
Ranloth
Banned


 Changed the values for my skill, Conduction, to a bit higher at different level ranges but only +1 more per different level range. New numbers are as follow:
quote:

Level 1: Reduce Target's Resistance by 1 / 2 / 3 Points
Level 2: Reduce Target's Resistance by 3 / 4 / 5 Points
Level 3: Reduce Target's Resistance by 5 / 6 / 7 Points
Level 4: Reduce Target's Resistance by 7 / 8 / 9 Points
Level 5: Reduce Target's Resistance by 9 / 10 / 11 Points
Level 6: Reduce Target's Resistance by 10 / 11 / 12 Points
Level 7: Reduce Target's Resistance by 11 / 12 / 13 Points
Level 8: Reduce Target's Resistance by 12 / 13 / 14 Points
Level 9: Reduce Target's Resistance by 13 / 14 / 15 Points
Level 10: Reduce Target's Resistance by 14 / 15 / 16 Points

It does NOT improve with any skill, these are fixed numbers. You will argue it's weaker than Malf as it doesn't affect stats but -16 Res is equivalent to about -60 Tech on Malf which requires very high (abusive) Support build and also maxed to even get there. That's with neglecting all other stats for Malf to be as high which affects your deflection rate (higher) and enemy's falling down as well as debuffing some of their skills. Since abusive Malf is harder to get and affects all the stats, these numbers for Conduction are a bit better than Malf with the same Energy cost but don't affect any other stat but Resistance which is good enough. These numbers should be equal to the same Level of Malf with moderate Support at lower range (depends on your Level and skill's) and gets better than Malf (Res-wise) when it hits just Lvl 4 and starts to dominate over it.
The requirement would also be Technology which is most suitable stat for 2 reasons - it enhances Stun Grenade and Energy Shield which aren't pure offensive skills and cannot give you damage advantage in fight.

That's my reasoning. With my suggestion of the new skill tree for CHs, or rather old with few changes, Tech would improve just Stun Grenade and Energy Shield. So yes, they'd need to train Tech. Why not Str, Dex or Support? Str is essential for them for their SC so they get more Energy back and you are likely to see CH train Str unless it's Beta abuse in some way. Dex is a no because they get Multi already that improves with it so synergy would be too big but they are likely to still train Tech so this can still have synergy but not as big as if it was just Dex requirement. Support requirement is last and would be a bit pointless as none of their skill improves by Support but Matrix. SA has 42 Support requirement but that's the only skill and putting another one on Support would be a bit pointless if they aren't getting any bonus from it but a Shield - that may not be useful for their build - and to meet SA requirement. It may seem like Support would be better choice but I'd rather put it on Tech due to skills it improves being defensive or luck-based (Stun has weaker damage to compensate for the stun effect).
AQ Epic  Post #: 123
4/17/2012 10:46:31   
gangster a
Member

for blood mages and tech mages make the cooldown longer for both the bolts it will help balance the classes and the OP build wont be as strong.
AQ MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 124
4/17/2012 11:02:07   
Ranloth
Banned


 Yes, and give a nerf at lower levels thus making TMs weaker than Merc and BHs. Change might be good for high level but that ain't the case at all levels - it's all balanced until it gets to 30s range really.
Besides Caster ain't OP if you look at players witn normal weapons, not Beta weapons which allow you to abuse it without limits. 2 skills should change requirements and that's it for TMs to kill the abuse, simple as -> Str for Super Charge and Support for Reroute instead of current Dex for SC and Tech for Reroute. Why change? Casters fully neglect Support and Strength for Caster build as it's not needed due to Tech being requirement for Reroute and Dex for SC, so they get defensive bonuses as well as power in one.

Reroute is available at Lvl 5 and it'll take you at least until Lvl 15 to get good use out of it + damaging skills & SC is available at Lvl 10 but using it wisely and better than Bolt comes near Lvl 20 with good strategy. By that time you should have enough to cover requirements of skills that are in 30s (that's Lvl 4-5+ of the skill).
AQ Epic  Post #: 125
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