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RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII

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5/18/2012 16:56:11   
Ranloth
Banned


 Even with medium Tech (enough to cover requirement of Plasma), at Lvl 1 it can take off in high 20s AND you always have it AND it's unblockable. Doesn't matter if you train it or not, but all classes have it at Tier 4, blockable and much harder to progress drain-wise.
It's funny, EMP is NOT a problem for BHs but it is for CHs. Guess why? Plasma Armor perhaps? Don't tell me anything about Energy control, only CHs have it that easy. TLMs you may mention? Atom is blockable and Tier 4 + requires a Maul as well.

Here's example from Wootz's post which is "c)" ;)
AQ Epic  Post #: 401
5/18/2012 16:59:38   
Calogero
Member

Problem with EMP is indeed Plasma Armor... due to it having the requirement of Tech, it easely trains EMP aswell...
That's at max Plasma armor about 28 EMP without any modifiers...

Also I think that, at lvl 1 - 10 EMP would be OP for those levels due to opponents having little energy at that moment anyway....

If I could suggest something is to make EMP Tier 4 and Energy Grenade Tier 1 on CH...

just my thoughts though

_____________________________

Having a Signature is too mainstream
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 402
5/18/2012 17:34:16   
Arevero
Member

If things turn out as Trans suggested for PA, perhaps EMP can switch tiers with DM, and also put static charge back on it's %.

But Frogbones, you must see that we are trying to stop EMP madness, PA is the problem, not EMP, EMP is a very strategic skill, it has been granted to Hunters to pay off for no bunk, bolt, cannon, etc.

We Hunters were feeble from the start, and now we are Uber-tank, why? Because of Plasma Armor, regardless of what complaitns we Chs get, PA is always behind it. It's like this root, pulling a good root, which is us, down, hindering any chance of fun or unique builds.

If you do take away EMP from CHs, it's just like my scenario, you are destroying the good one, not the bad one, because then more problems will rise, and eventually, CHs would be forced to go full STR, just to survive.

Might i mention BHs only build choice is STR? They need a change for once so they can move onto some other builds.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 403
5/18/2012 17:50:59   
steven11113
Member

Too much damage toward the other player but no helath back for u





Lower the massace down from 12% to 8%, 10% to 6% and 8% to 5% but give player back 30% health back

Since mercency still underpower , i think mercency should add chance to stun on every successful hit
Like this on top of Adrenaline

Lvl chance to stun, increase rage rate and defending rage rate, the rage rate drop a bit since i combine 2 into 1

1 4%
2 6%
3 7%
4 8%
5 9%
6 10%
7 11%
8 12%
9 13%
10 14%


Most mercency dont want to invest 6 or higher since there support requirement

This may seem powerful but when u dont get stun, it turn out to be a nerf
AQW Epic  Post #: 404
5/18/2012 23:46:53   
Hun Kingq
Member

Illuminator, Plasma Rain Improves with Dex now not tech and it was lowered from Dexterity (+1 damage at 28 Dexterity; +1 damage per 4 Dexterity after) to Dexterity (+1 damage at 24 Dexterity; +1 damage per 4 Dexterity after) because the in battle damage was not the same as the other multis. Before the update I had to have 180 dex (45-54) to get in the mid 40s for damage as the hunter could have a little less dex and the Merc classes could have half amount of support (From 99 to 100 support).

Illuminator, Surgical strike does a lot of damage and takes away rage but Super Charge does not do a lot of damage. A player wrote this "Massacre, cannot be improved" so pointing out it improves with strength so it can be improved maybe not the percentage but it improves none the less. With massacre they could easily end the battle with a player having 60 health but with surgical strike and Super Charge you have to get the opponents health down below 40 just to end the match with those two skills and sometimes I have seen that is not enough. So bring back the triple strike super charge. With massacre being made blockable does not take away the fact it will still leave you hurting but will give a player a chance to block.
Calculation from wiki
“101% Damage, multiply your Damage you would do normally by (1+1.01), so you'd do 201% damage”
now put 140% and tell me all ultimates get the same damage at level 10.

“Classes with passive armors are supposed to take less damage than classes without them. The classes without passive armors have other benefits. BM and BH have passive health regen, none of the passive armor classes have passive health regen. TM have energy regen and higher gun damage. A blood mage SHOULD be getting hit harder than a mercenary, that is how it was designed. Blood mages have health regen to compensate. A blood mage (and every other class) is supposed to do reduced damage to a class with passive armor, that's what the armor is for.”

Key words, less damage, at 23% health regain means you get such a low amount that is unnoticeable so having health regain or energy regain is not a good enough excuse to improve the Delta Armor to +8 defense/resistance for the non-passive armor classes because now after the update the additional +5 defense/resistance is not good enough and when the level cap is raised it will be even worse.

The Delta Armor between the Passive armor classes and the non-passive armor classes creates a huge unfair advantage but many players that play a class with passive armors can’t see that and with Illuminator being a Level 34 merc, can that player see the unfair advantage. Moving the Delta Armor for non-passive armor classes to +8 defense and resistance will not make them unbeatable but a better advantage against the classes with passive/Delta armors.

Vast majority of time you don’t have a fighting chance in 2vs2 especially when two emps takes away over 60 points of energy out of 88 points not only once, twice but three or four times which you are left with low damage weapons. You are not suppose to win all the time but you also not suppose to loose all the time either. Make a battle mode where you could be partnered up with a NPC against two NPCs and you will see more players flock to that battle mode.

I never got 100% damage if I did I would be getting 80 damage every time with Plasma Rain every match but I was already getting 50% to 85% less damage but now to add 75% less of that damage in exchange of lower energy cost is not balance and was not worth the trade.

So now with this update balance is further over the hill than ever before.
Epic  Post #: 405
5/18/2012 23:59:00   
Rayman
Banned


 ^
Yes but if the classes without passives shiels get +8 def and res with delta knight then the classes without passives shield with armors like bunny borg Gonna get pwned. so thats too unfair. So what u saying wont happen.


< Message edited by Rayman -- 5/19/2012 0:00:35 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 406
5/19/2012 0:16:48   
Mr. Black OP
Member

@hun
Please tell me how much you struggle you against mercenaries.
Oh, wait nobody does. This is why delta won't get buffed for you alone.
The purpose of passive armors is to increase defenses. So what is the point when everyone else is getting extra defenses anyways?
Lets say you do around 10 damage with a lv 8 BL, you gain 3 health, in a 10 turn game its 30 health.
If you get extra defenses for not having a passive armor, I get more health for not having a passive health gain, and more gun damage for not having a passive damage increase.
Epic  Post #: 407
5/19/2012 1:03:52   
Zeoth
Member

Hun you truly have some very skewered logic. Like Mr. Black OPs said if I don't have a health regen I should get more health same with everything else. That is exactly what you are saying. I'd take effects over pure damage anyday. Effects most of te time are better in the moment. And pure damage helps later. But most massacre builds don't last long enough for that damage to take its toll. You are also a complete fool with the Delta armor idea +5 is fine seeing how Mercs have +6 for hybrid. A non passive split armor should not have more than a skill period.
Post #: 408
5/19/2012 1:43:03   
Hun Kingq
Member

Mr. Black OP, I must be one class, no wait the Blood mage has more players than me, it will benefit all those players that get that armor. The Blood mage is the only non-passive armor class, wait we have the Bounty hunter and the tech mage and it will benefit both those classes. Wait if they improve it on my Delta Armor can it be it will improve other Blood Mages Delta Armor unless my Armor is unique that it is separate from the other Blood Mages Delta Armors, so tell me is that the case? Is the Delta armor I have so separate from the Delta Armors of the Bounty Hunters, Tech mages, or other Blood Mages since everyone is so determined that it is only about improving only my Delta Armor. So tell me if on regular strike each one is 30 damage on me is 3 health enough so let’s break it down, from 90 health, just to be even, Play strikes me, 30 damage, I attack the player, get 10 damage, 3 health back, so 63 health left, player attacks, 30 damage, I attack 10 damage 3 health back, 36 health left, player attacks, 30 damage, leaving you with 6 points of health than add 3 for your attack, 9 left than they attack, 30 points your dead. Where is the 10 rounds at? You can’t show the total health you get over a certain amount of rounds trying to show how beneficial it is you have to take each round individual how much damage and how much return and if you get blocked than there is no energy return so if you get blocked 4 rounds with only power coming from the weapons due to no energy health return does not make a difference. Between the Bounty Hunter and the Blood Mage which is more likely not to get blocked? With Massacre they deal huge amount of damage and get a huge chunk of health back where the Super charge was already made clear the health return does not stack with Blood Lust so when Super charge is used you only get health return from that and that is not that much either.

Rayman, If those players that uses bunny borg or any other armor does not want to get the Delta Armor that is up to them but not to improve the Delta Armor based on that is not a good enough reason to improve the Delta Armor. When Delta goes so does the Armor. So why don’t you have the Delta Armor?

The non-passive armor classes has to choose between defense/resistance and power where the passive armor classes could have both defense/resistance and power as more of you are starting to see with the Cyber Hunter class.

Zeoth, If you or any other player want more health than retrain and put more health, so then put the Delta armor at +8 defense/resistance and put the hybrid at +9 defense/resistance problem solved but then the Blood Mage and Bounty hunter will get even less damage making only 1 point for health return for each attack which basically would make the merc class unbeatable while getting high damage with their skills and weapons and everyone else gets low damage on the mercs. Whether you like it or not the split point armors will get more points then the hybrid skills to adjust with the level caps. When Level 35 soon comes that will mean increase power, in skills and weapons and tell me will only +5 defense/resistance be good enough? No, it won’t. The Delta Armor has really not been that effective as protecting the player as it should for the non passive armor classes but you and the others can’t see that. The delta Armor is two level 25 armors combined so take a level 25 armor into battle against two 34 with passive armors and tell me if that is enough protection. Before calling someone a fool or as you put it a complete fool look in the mirror and ask yourself, “Am I a complete fool for not seeing what is to come in Epic Duel?”

Which would rather see a nerf to the passive Armors or a slight point increase to the Delta Armor for the non-passive classes? Either one has to happen so choose. If you choose no point increase then there will be a nerf.

Balance is a bigger issue now than ever before and it will get worse if they continue on this path.


< Message edited by Hun Kingq -- 5/19/2012 1:53:54 >
Epic  Post #: 409
5/19/2012 1:54:01   
i like bounty hunter
Member

Hun Kingq

Chill Dude

You Dont Have To Write All That Stuff

You Dont Have To Get Angry

Just Be Calm And Dont Write So Many Things About Balance

Just Write A SHORT Note If You Want But Dont Write All That

I Know You Want Balance But Just Think Of This

You Are The Develepor Of Epic Duel,You Want All These Balance Changes And You Made Them
And Then You Realize You Dont Know How To Make It
And Then You Dont Get Paid And Your Screwed.

So Just Go With The Flow And Chill,Relax
Its Not The End Of The World

But I Do Agree With What You Say
quote:

Balance is a bigger issue now than ever before and it will get worse if they continue on this path.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 410
5/19/2012 2:17:25   
khalidon5000
Member

Ahh, Hun Kingq just wondering,
What do you think of Trans's idea for revamp to passive armors?
It's the second post on page 14.
Epic  Post #: 411
5/19/2012 3:02:49   
Zeoth
Member

Okay Hun we can play by your absolutely diluted logic.
If YOU want more defenses then put more stats into dex and technology, quit complaining and take your so called balance issues somewhere else where someone actually cares.
Post #: 412
5/19/2012 3:11:43   
Arevero
Member

Hun Kingq, SC isn't meant to be an all-powerful kill skill, it's meant as a heal, rage takeaway, while doing some dmg. You can't have special abilities, and huge dmg at the same time, if you want SC being more higher in dmg, then take out the abilities, one way or the other.

And you forgot, BHs have no bolt, cannon, bunk EITHER. That's why BH have some advantages and BMs DON'T.

Whats more was when BM STR builds where on the loose, did you complain about it or were you a STR BM too?

Every class has their OP point, and needs a nerf, so in which case we Chs want PA gone, why didn't you do the same abotu your BM class, and instead said BM is weak.

BHs needs mass right now, good luck with another build other than STR on BH, because currently, it's VERY UNLIKELY.

Like i said, BHs need a change, the STR builds have been going on since early Delta, and it hasn't stopped since.

< Message edited by Arevero -- 5/19/2012 3:24:58 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 413
5/19/2012 4:02:59   
ansh0
Member

These skills need to be fixed, they are so broken it's not even funny.

Bunker buster

Stupid tier 2 skills hits like a truck with moderate tech then you add the crit chance. OP

Plasma Bolt

God, tier 1 skills have never been as powerful as this.

It can easily reach 75 base dmg. It has NO requirement and an EP cost of just 29 at MAX


They are easily the most OP skills in the game.
Epic  Post #: 414
5/19/2012 4:05:31   
Ranloth
Banned


 @Hun
You were told. If Multis do NOT deal same damage at let's say 111 Dex, Support and Tech, this is a bug so take screenshot AND report it. It was said on last page or 2 pages ago, by Illuminator himself. So rather than argue how unbalanced Multis are, report it if it's clearly a bug. Then you have one thing off your head.

Also I want +15 Res and Def from my Armors if his idea of Delta Armors goes through. Heck I'm a TM so I deserve more defences than those with passive Armors. Like hell no! Why should non-passive Armor classes get a buff to Armor? I don't see classes other than Mages arguing that they want higher Gun damage because they lack DA. We have skills to substitute for them, your suggestion is already a NO by a Staff Member:
quote:

quote:

The Delta Armor between the Passive armor classes and the non-passive armor classes



Classes with passive armors are supposed to take less damage than classes without them. The classes without passive armors have other benefits. BM and BH have passive health regen, none of the passive armor classes have passive health regen. TM have energy regen and higher gun damage. A blood mage SHOULD be getting hit harder than a mercenary, that is how it was designed. Blood mages have health regen to compensate. A blood mage (and every other class) is supposed to do reduced damage to a class with passive armor, that's what the armor is for.

Source: http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=20324578

The first quote is from YOUR post and this idea is already a no. Staff member explained it why, and if it's a no then finish it. Staff always has the last say, this rule is going on for years now throughout the Forum so seriously drop it as you're spamming the thread.

Guys seriously don't reply to him. This will cause him to post even more of his 'knowledge' on Forum and keep trolling every suggestion regarding BMs so we're wasting time and spamming the thread rather than focus on important issues. He failed to grasp basic logic of the game and does everything for his case - to buff BMs - so it's really not worth arguing with someone who's stuck up and has one-sided views that must be in his favour only; screw other classes, BMs are supposed to be strongest. If we'll stop giving the kid attention, he'll do something else. (RL logic) ;)
AQ Epic  Post #: 415
5/19/2012 6:29:38   
RageSoul
Member

@Trans
quote:

No Support requirement to Fireball? Then no Str requirement to Plasma either. Why should one be penalised whilst Str BMs are much stronger and are much harder to counter due to less Energy needed? Str is most useless stat in TM's skill tree. Sure it can be useful but one skill raises weapon's damage and one takes Energy, that's use of Str. BMs have Support for defensive skills so wouldn't hurt you to have some Support rather than spam Str, and get average defences.

That's the point of Stat Requirements , they're meant to be obstacles to prevent further OPness , and besides , i never suggested adding SUPP requirements for Fireball , just change how FB works or something and that's it . Also , please bear in mind that some classes got nearly-pointless nerfs that aren't really needed y'know . So i have an idea : make Fireball improve with both STR and SUPP

FORMULA : Total STR + Total SUPP / 2 , then keep the same progression , and there , you'll get the damage .
AQW Epic  Post #: 416
5/19/2012 6:32:36   
Ranloth
Banned


 Yeah, I do get what you mean Aegis and do share the view on abusing the skill but my point was - if you touch PB, then you must change FB as well to keep it equal.
There's easier way of simply adding different stat progression, not 1 dmg/4 stats but 1 dmg/5 stats. Per 100 stats, it's 5 damage less. Since players tend to have more, it'll be 6-8 damage less than it is now which could be better; since Str requirement would be in 30s, you'd lose probably on 15-20 stat points which is 5 damage on current progression. Rather than limit builds by adding requirements, slower progression could do the same job! :)
AQ Epic  Post #: 417
5/19/2012 7:05:10   
RageSoul
Member

@Trans
Well , you're kinda right ... i do find TM weak , but that could work .
AQW Epic  Post #: 418
5/19/2012 7:52:06   
liy010
Member

quote:

God, tier 1 skills have never been as powerful as this.

It can easily reach 75 base dmg. It has NO requirement and an EP cost of just 29 at MAX


Not to mention this one person who had base 80 DMG at level 1...She has a MAX Technician so her Resistance was 50-60 and it only took 11 EP to deal 80 DMG...I had to EMP Every chance I got "-.-

Also, another point I want to mention is that EMP is a bit OP with it's unmissable EP drain in the 20s with LOW TECH but keep in mind that you are using EP and a turn...10 EP might not seem like much but before I switched to my more "Creative" build, I had to choose between Healing myself or Preventing the opponent from Healing (I was using a Tank Heal Loop) and if I did EMP, my opponent gets a Strike at me. Now with so many STR builds, EP drain might not even prove worth it.

Lastly, I say too many STR builds!
In the last 10 2vs2 Battles I fought today, I've seen...
STR CH: 3
STR TLM: 2
STR MERC: 1
STR BH: 1 (I fought him like 3 times thought...)
STR BM: 0 (Wow...)
STR TM: 1

All of these are basic 20-24 or 23-27 DMG build that are mindless attacking. Heck, there was even a TLM with 27-32 DMG that used a Level 10 FC...The TM surprised me most though. He was Max Bludgeon and Max DA with 23-27 DMG and really low defences. To tell the truth, I don't even think half these Classes are fit for STR builds and yet people use them anyway. STR too dominant?

My final point is on BHs. Unlike BMs (Which are also known for STR builds) Like Arevero mentioned, BHs have no Bolt/Bunker/Cannon or how I call it, Mini-Nuke skills. This means they have to take their opponent down slowly and strategically and with no form of Energy regain, it's pretty hard to use any other builds than STR. Their main passive is BL which only heals you enough if you do good DMG which in turn, cause STR builds. When they are out of EP, they can only resort to Primary and Sidearm and maybe a Bot if they are using 5 Focus STR builds. It's early in the morning so I don't have that much ideas right now but I do know that BHs need to be given more options for builds than only STR.

So that's all for today. If you have any complaints or disagreements please PM me or post 1-2 Days later because I'm going to the US today so I won't be online for a couple of days.
Thanks :)

< Message edited by liy010 -- 5/19/2012 8:01:53 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 419
5/19/2012 15:14:35   
Ranloth
Banned


 Since TMs should get a skill-tree revamp, I tried to come up with a better set-up for it to provide better synergy! :D

http://i48.tinypic.com/28879cl.png

Firstly, Dex build can be done as it was before but you must have Bludgeon now. Seems fine as it can be useful since high Dex gives you lower chance for enemy to block your attack so that's nice synergy here. Technican + Reroute together give good synergy along with Matrix because you will always have defensive skills at least even if at Lvl 1 - this again goes good for Dex builds with Technican so we have nice setup for Dex TMs already! Since most builds have Malf with little exceptions, I placed it in same spot as CHs have it now. From there on, you have access to DA, SC and Assimilate. I will explain 4 types of builds in few sentences and their synergy:
Strength - you will need Reroute so you get defensive skills as well if you need to which isn't bad and you may need them. You also get Malf as well as DA and Assimilate which gives you nice synergy and doesn't give you unneded skills like Multi or Stun. Of course Lvl 1 Stun may be useful for some so access is also easy and not forced (current skill tree requires Multi AND Stun).
Dex - Multi and Overload have easy access, you also have defensive skills due to Reroute placement and if you wish, you can get Malf and Bludgeon on the way to give you small buff. And access to DA or Assimilate is also easier if you wish to have them even at Lvl 1 or 2 for personal reasons.
Tech - synergy here is slightly broken down. Now they will need Technican to get to Reroute and with medium Dex, they won't get much out of it. On the way, like on old skill tree, they will get Bludgeon and Malf if they want to which they couldn't before and then access to SC. You may say it's better but since they already can barely max 2 skills + Reroute and Heal, then Malf will be Lvl 1 or 2 if they keep it the same.
Support - They are slightly defensive already so will take advantage of Matrix + Technican, and Reroute is like a must anyway. :P They will also get Bludgeon to get Malf just like before to get Reroute but that's no biggie and they get access to DA and Assimilate as well! Similar to Str build really, and they don't get useless skills on the way. :)

Opinions welcome from everyone! Would like to know what people have to say. :D
AQ Epic  Post #: 420
5/19/2012 15:31:33   
DeathGuard
Member

@Trans: I just love how you arranged the skill tree, this will give more variants at the moment of making builds. I think we won't be wasting too much skill points trying to reach other skills that we want to use.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 421
5/19/2012 18:11:16   
Arevero
Member

I respect Trans because he doesn't go all day trying to find balance through benefiting himself, it's a real delight having him as a friend, but apparently Hun is vice-versa, ignored for now.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

About your TM skill tree revamp Trans, from what i have noticed from the past, a TM needs EVERY skill to produce a good build, you can't have SC without Overload and Multi, which is basically 2 points wasted unless you do want that xD

So what you are suggesting is a great idea, this way, you won't have to waste too many skill points, while having a stable outcome, Congratz



Liy010, again it is BH being left in dust, people think they are all OP and stuff, but they don't know how that's the only option, to be honest, BL may seem like a strategic/awesome passive, BUT it has a requirement, 'a passive STR requirement', without doing enough damage, BL is useless, hence i think staff should re-wire them a bit, STR builds can still flow in them, but they need something like tech/5F/dex/SUP builds for a start.

Afterall, Bounties aren't dirty fighters, they hunt, strategically, but so far all I've seen out of them is head-on matches.


And lastly, I'd also prefer slower dmg progression rather than new requirements, you can't be too harsh on tier 1 skills considering lower-lvls.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 422
5/19/2012 18:29:07   
liy010
Member

My Hunter Idea.

Hybrid Lust (Replaces Blood Lust)
At Max (On ipod so it's hard to do all the levels): 5% HP and 5% EP gained back on every strike. Like SC, it ignores all defense.
Level Progression is at level 1: 1% HP 0% EP, level 2 1% HP 1% EP ect.
Maybe buff static to 30% to make it on par with this.
This gives BH EP regain so more strategies :)
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 423
5/19/2012 18:34:45   
Mr. Black OP
Member

^
At max with moderate damage that's 3 damage and energy.

_____________________________
Epic  Post #: 424
5/19/2012 18:44:47   
Joe10112
Member

TM skill tree needs to be re-arranged. Currently all the plasma bolt/rain/overload are sitting in a line together.

BMs STR is still a problem, though I see less and less STR, which is good.

CH need a fix. Plasma Armor, Static Charge, EMP are main concerns.

AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 425
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