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RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX

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7/2/2012 2:55:31   
Drianx
Member

No, enhancements do not ruin the balance, and neither do weapons or armors. The issue with enhancements is that they are too expensive and are milking additional varium from players everytime a better weapon is released.

I have been playing Blood Mage for about 1000 duels recently, and I never went above 90% win ratio (NPCs included), although I have very good equipment and max enhancements. I can hardly win against varium str BHs, str CHs, tech-abusing TMs, and I never win if I go second unless I'm very very lucky.

Under these circumstances I can honestly say Blood Mage is not overpowered. Who does not believe this, just change class to BM and try it yourselves.


I agree with people saying Massacre is a bit too strong. In my opinion Massacre should improve with Technology, just like Surgical Strike and Super Charge do.

< Message edited by Drianx -- 7/2/2012 2:56:10 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 426
7/2/2012 3:36:40   
ansh0
Member

^

155 hp

75 ep

??+69 str
??+35 dex
??+30 tech
??+?? support

Now tell me enhancements dont ruin the game.
Epic  Post #: 427
7/2/2012 4:01:23   
Drianx
Member

dude, you posted a build, not a reason.

just get max enhancements yourself and you will have a similar build. You cannot afford it? Well, THAT is the real issue, not the existence of enhancements.
AQW Epic  Post #: 428
7/2/2012 4:01:23   
Remorse
Member

@ Drianx



Yes blood mages ARE oped because when they START they can only be beatin by luck!


they are oped because they can hardly be considered counterable infact like u said the only way to beat them is to be a STR or Power abuser yourself.

You have a 90% ratio because 10% of the time luck kills you whther it be starting second agianst another powerbuild or being blocked alot.

HOW ABOUT you go another class that ISNT a spammingof power and attacking build say for example a focus build or perhaps a tank build and try BEATING a STR blood mage without luck!


How would you know if enhaments arnt a problem were you even playing before that time???

I have even tested games without enhaments now and found it allot MORE balanced!

All powerbuilds are UNBALANCED because they RUIN STRATEGY and variety in this game.


YES enhancments are a problem because this game is NOT a chalenge of wits rather a battle of pathetic spamming power.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 7/2/2012 4:07:04 >
Epic  Post #: 429
7/2/2012 4:10:25   
Drianx
Member

@Remorse

Please try Blood Mage first, and notice the win ratio from the Blood Mage side, not from the other side.

I had 270 wins yesterday with 88% win ratio with NPCs. Without NPCs I might have had about 85%, or maybe less. This is 10% less than CHs and BHs on leaderboard, check for yourself.

quote:

All powerbuilds are UNBALANCED because they RUIN STRATEGY and variety in this game.

This is true. I meet lots of noobs BH and CH lv34 with full varium equipment and enhancements using cheap patterns like smoke - strike - strike - massacre. I rarely beat them with Blood Mage because although I have 26-32 +35 dmg, they still outdamage me.

quote:

YES enhancments are a problem because this game is NOT a chalenge of wits rtaher a battle of pathertic spamming power.

Yes, enhancements are a problem, but not because they exist in the first place, but because they are a forcing people to spend lots of varium into them everytime a new weapon is released.
AQW Epic  Post #: 430
7/2/2012 5:22:11   
Archlord Raistlin
Member
 

 What's the root cause of just about every complaint in this balance forum? Some form of stat or skill abuse...

Sure enhancements make it easier to abuse a particular stat, but why not limit the stat abuse in the first place?
Then you don't have to worry so much about enhancements...do you?

I do not see why anyone is reluctant put a stop to the stat abuse...some false sense of limiting creativity???
Oh yeah, now I remember, everyone would become a 5 focus abuser, which would be boring - right? and
much worse off than we are today... :/ At one time ED "wanted" everyone to create more balanced builds.

Stat abuse is the basic cause of so many of these problems it's laughable that no one seems to acknowledge it.

Look at the history over the past couple of years...no matter what you do, the abusers will "always" try to
find another abuse tool, so it goes on endlessly from one thing to another. Why do you think we are all stuck
in strength builds? Yeah...necessity, not balance. Try hitting someone with 40 resistance with your 11-15 str.
Try using your max multi and hit 2 players for 20 each...really - one point of damage for each point of mana?
Come to think of it, my massacre is not much more efficient... Why do you think level 34 varium players are
the most common users of boosters??? It's another ABUSE TOOL.

One first step is to determine an abuse threshold and then up the stat costs accordingly to make it UNDESIRABLE
to abuse. This would limit the range of advantage between abusers and non-abusers if nothing else. Then you
can look at combos or passives or skill sets and "maybe" make some progress.

Post #: 431
7/2/2012 6:21:46   
rayniedays56
Member

As much as I hate to rant, I must agree with this issue.

My all time favorite build with a Bounty Hunter is a high technology/5 focus build.

However, what use is this when you have strength BM's with an unblockable strength move, an unblockable gun, which when deflected still does 22 damage, and the always somehow manages to hit me with my 28-34 defense and Shadow Arts of maxed level? Even when I smoke them for 43 dexterity points.

Some say luck. I say suspicion lol.


Annnnndddd.....there is my rant for the day :D
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 432
7/2/2012 6:34:08   
Remorse
Member

@ Drianx,


I have tried STR blood mage on one of my alts.


And I found that yes I lost alot to luck, but I also beat alot of people effortlessly.
Infact it is quite unfair and I feel sry for the people I beat that way.


I belive that all builds should have some sort of working counter when they start without luck.


Powerbuilds these days do not meet these requirments.



And although you think enahncements arnt the problem I think it is.


Because without enhancments powerbuilds would either have alot less power or alot less HP both reductions gives them possible counters and therefore leads to better balance.

If you were from the beta or pre enahncements period you may understand that, if you still dont belive me , gather a friend and use unenhanced wepons (buy non variums ones if you have to) and test the so called powerbuilds. you will find the builds that use startegy without extreme power and defence are now usable agian because without the extra power from enhancements powerbuilds dont compltely destroy everyhting that doesnt also use extreme power or have extreme defence.

@ Above,


I understand your need for a rant and I find the reason totaly justified.


I too am anoyed at the declining strategy in this game and the need for a substitution of power.



< Message edited by Remorse -- 7/2/2012 6:38:43 >
Epic  Post #: 433
7/2/2012 6:50:54   
Drianx
Member

I am from early Beta so yes, I know how it was before enhancements. I was so upset on enhancements that I quit when they released armor enhancements, because I had 8 armors at that time and did not want to spend varium to enhance them all. I actually had 60/60 varium items in my inventory but then I sold most of them (now I am at about 17/60) because I was angry they force me to spend ALOT to enhance them.

So no, I don't hate enhancements, I hate the price and the need to enhance every new item. I would be fine with them if you could move enhancements from one weapon to another free of charge. And I think most people would be fine with that.
AQW Epic  Post #: 434
7/2/2012 17:12:04   
Moha32
Member

Enhancements were originally shown to buff up old weapons maybe they should only make enhancements for weapons and armors some levels below the level cap :p
DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 435
7/3/2012 14:00:15   
Remorse
Member

^ That exuse by the devs to justify enhancements is hardly viable when they made the decesion to never buff rares or old wepons.... for aprant "balance reasosns"

So they can stop the buffing of rares for balance which hradly effected balance but keeping enhancments is fne obviolsy.... (sarcasim)


Older wepons will never be usefull anyway since every time they bring out new wepons it puts another dent in the competetive advanatge of older wepons.

They may aswell lower the costs of getting new stuff and help balance by removing enhancements an accepting the fact that they kill the old wepons usefullness , and draining everyone of varium and balance with enahncements, isnt helping at all...

< Message edited by Remorse -- 7/3/2012 14:04:10 >
Epic  Post #: 436
7/3/2012 17:18:22   
frosty123
Member
 

 how come every good non-varium or varium weapon is a rare?
Post #: 437
7/4/2012 3:28:20   
Rayman
Banned


 Focus Bh seems to beat easy str bms, while at focus ch is harder and can be easier if ur emp takes 44-45. It Just Need a slight nerf simple as that, like fireball from str to supp thats it.

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AQW Epic  Post #: 438
7/4/2012 3:53:46   
Archlord Raistlin
Member
 

 Wrong place...I know...

Nice job on the war...fun, interesting, varied battles that count for something, etc...
Definite improvements over the last war...you've restored a tiny bit of faith.

Starting to get some 2v2 battles that are total set-ups tho...two 34's versus me and an NPC.
This I don't like, and reminds me of too many standard 2v2 battles where the winners are basically
predetermined at the start. One NPC on each side was considerably more fair. It's not like an
NPC wasn't available, so another 34 just HAD to be added into the battle...

Other than that, it's been good :)

Post #: 439
7/4/2012 7:35:55   
ScarletReaper
Member

I'm kinda tired of people saying bloodmage is OP. Not only do I beat them when I go first, I beat them when They go first as well. The problem is the way block works. I have very high dex in my build and you know strength bloodmage doesn't, but I still rarely block them. They seem to have no problem blocking me though.

< Message edited by ScarletReaper -- 7/4/2012 7:36:14 >

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DF AQW Epic  Post #: 440
7/4/2012 8:05:12   
rayniedays56
Member

I think when people say BM is OP, they mean Strength BM is, not the others.


I kinda like seeing BM's that use a build that isn't a copy build of strength :D


A fascinating build for BM to me is Reflex Boost, Max Over Load, Max Plasma Rain. That sounds very fun to use :)
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 441
7/4/2012 8:11:24   
Calogero
Member

You clearly haven't seen my build yet Raynie ;)

_____________________________

Having a Signature is too mainstream
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 442
7/4/2012 9:54:03   
King Helios
Member

Here's my BM skill tree.

(85-90% in 2v2)

1-1-1
0-M-M
0-1-M
0-1-0

31-38 Def, 24-29 +9 Res, 124 HP, 100 EP.
AQ MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 443
7/4/2012 18:48:43   
ScarletReaper
Member

Yeah, it's always nice to see bloodmages using non strength build. Surprized I don't ever really see tech abuse on them. If I was a bm I would be Tech abuse with max plasma cannon and supercharge. Is that build not a viable option for them or what?
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 444
7/4/2012 19:00:57   
liy010
Member

quote:

A fascinating build for BM to me is Reflex Boost, Max Over Load, Max Plasma Rain. That sounds very fun to use :)


Fun, but not good. I've faced Hun using this build (Hun was using it) and it wasn't too strong. Plasma Rain only did 80 Damage and it was Max Reflex+Max rain
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 445
7/4/2012 20:18:15   
rayniedays56
Member

Some rare builds?


Cyber Hunter Support
Cyber Hunter Tech
Bounty Tech
Bounty Support
Tech Strength
BM Support
BM Dex
BM tank
Merc Dex
Merc Heal Loop
TLM Dex
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 446
7/4/2012 20:20:39   
ScarletReaper
Member

LoL I used strength techmage before. Didn't like the low win % though. Also tried tech cyberhunter. Works slightly better.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 447
7/4/2012 20:24:51   
rayniedays56
Member

My alt os a strength TM and I have.a hogh win percentage. With the low.defenses, I gain a ton of EP to heal loop too :D
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 448
7/4/2012 20:34:09   
liy010
Member

quote:

Cyber Hunter Support
Cyber Hunter Tech
Bounty Tech
Bounty Support
Tech Strength
BM Support
BM Dex
BM tank
Merc Dex
Merc Heal Loop
TLM Dex


I must object.

Bounty Tech: Believe it or not, I've seen a lot of Tech, 5 Focus Bounty Hunters with Gamma Bot. High Tech gives them a High Smoke and with their 5 Focus, good bot damage too. They usually smoke and then bot for Massive Damage. Not sure about you but I've seen this a lot. It is easily a great build and may even be better than STR BHs (But it;s not discovered yet because few use it compared to STR)

Merc Loop: Problem is they can't Heal Loop. I assume Heal-Loop is Looping a Heal, as implied by the name. Healing takes energy and since Merc can't regain Energy, its looping will have to stop at some point, unlike TLMs, CHs and TMs who can gain energy back and use it for another Heal making their heal infinite.

Rest are Rare though :S

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AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 449
7/4/2012 21:19:46   
Joe10112
Member

Although I see a low amount of SUP Cybers, it's not a bad idea. High Malfunction + High Defense Matrix. Anyone with var who can spare 500 creds should try it out. Seems to be pretty nice just by thinking...have decent defense, and high defense matrix, and high enough resistance + plasma armor. High Malfunction, high massacre...good victory.

I think we will see more Tech Cybers when we get Technician back...oh wait, we arn't. I was envisioning 5-focus tech cybers.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 450
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