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RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX

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6/9/2012 7:22:31   
dark warrior31
Member
 

 @Luna_moonraider +++ about TLM
AQW Epic  Post #: 101
6/9/2012 8:05:18   
Ranloth
Banned


 Luna can always summarise things well. :P
As of to TLMs, I wouldn't mind them getting a nerf-buff which is reducing Tankiness of the class and adding some Offence. Yes, small paragraph to read from me. :P

Technican put back in place of Blood Shield - Smoke is gone so it doesn't provide as much synergy with Maul which is also gone. This allows to actually Tank as well as raise your own damage (Bot, and SS unfortunatelly only).
Stun Grenade's cost lowered by 4 Energy to match Overload (since they are on same Tier + same power) so it's actually worth using.
Frenzy buffed by maybe 5% since it was nerfed few times due to synergy with Smoke. But Smoke is gone so you know.
Field Commander taken out for Intimidate. Both improve with Support but FC allows you to be a Tank and have high damage output along with Multi which makes the class Tank-oriented. Intimidate can do as much but to enemy and screw builds such as CHs (SC depends on Str), BMs (Fireball + DA + Bludgeon depend on St), BHs (Massacre + Smoke combo), or to counter original Mercs with their BC. And this is also a debuffer for the class so it's actually more offence-oriented.

And lastly, put requirement on Toxic Grenade to match the one of Venom that CHs and BHs own since it's unfair now. So this would make people use Poison less since they'd have to invest in the stat which they may not do so now.

-- There will be new Multis for Evolved classes so it isn't said that it'll be still Support Multi. If it was to be Tech which is fair - Mineral Armor + Dex multi would be quite a fail - then Technican could do wonders coupled with it and SS too. Support builds would only be lacking in that case which makes me think it'll stay Support but Support on its own is not meant to be a build but "jack of all trades, master of nothing" and since Support builds do have Tank defences, they could get a use of Tech skills too coupled with Technican as well. --

Opinions?

< Message edited by Trans -- 6/9/2012 8:20:47 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 102
6/9/2012 8:11:40   
Arevero
Member

@Power of the Chosen

DM isn't OP unless it's abused, like many other skills. It really depends on your SUP, and to say it is OP isn't fair to lower-lvled players who can only get about 3-5DEF points with DM, which hardly helps when they are smoke-screened or against a STR player.

Mass blockable makes the fact it's an ultimate-ridiculous. Basically if Mass is blockable, then everyone would just get a dex build and you would probably waste 33-60ep dealing no dmg at all while your opponent watches 7 moves all completely blocked. SC and SS would then be dominant and can i say no-one would be a BH or CH again.

I do agree with the Enhancing situation, it's too dominant, i mean how many non-vars have a good record, probability would almost be zero.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 103
6/9/2012 8:21:47   
midnight santa
Member

no ofence to "balance discussions" but wer now in topic #9 but is der balance?
my opinion is, no. wen i am beta it is more balance. but now, its jus very unbalance.
in truth, balance is worsen now. dis topic is just all talk and idea but no gud affect.
sori, but its true.
Epic  Post #: 104
6/9/2012 8:28:43   
Ranloth
Banned
quote:

All balance discussions will be restricted to this thread. This is to condense the many issues that you have all expressed into a single place that the balance people can work on.

I see 10 pages of DNs and there's no release. Your point? This is feedback thread, quite a few suggestions from here are actually in game - split HA was demand of players, PA was demand of players too (stable Resistance), quite a few nerfs were due to us giving feedback on it and how it should be fixed.
This thread fills up quickly due to suggestions and their makers giving feedback on them and vice versa. If you don't have anything to add but flame, this isn't topic to do so. Come up with a suggestion and perhaps give feedback to Staff if you want yourself heard, not troll everyone which is ignored by majority of the players. ;)
AQ Epic  Post #: 105
6/9/2012 8:32:26   
midnight santa
Member

truth is gona hurt sumtimes
balance is worst now jus ask pro players like comical and angels holocast.
and yes, PA realy make Cyber hunter balance lol
Epic  Post #: 106
6/9/2012 8:35:53   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 @archlord
quote:

No "luck" complaints - This thread is not a place to complain about an unlucky streak that caused you to lose a match. Please remember that while luck may seem to favor or disfavor you in the short run, over the long run it does average out.

And if you think it's so easy to balance all the classes then go ahead and try for yourself. Adding extra energy cost or stat requirements does nothing but prevent lower levels from abusing the skill. Multi is not going back to 100% damage on both enemies. That's simply too much damage and gives a huge advantage over players who don't use it in 2vs2.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 107
6/9/2012 8:46:35   
RageSoul
Member

@midnight
How? By restricting them to use P Armor , lessen creativity , and outclass everyone? I know they needed a buff , but one of the problems is that they can't regain HP aside from Field Medic isn't that serious ( just in case you don't know why they got the PA buff ) .
AQW Epic  Post #: 108
6/9/2012 15:09:32   
Archlord Raistlin
Member
 

 @ND The luck is not a complaint...it's a point referencing how all the blocks and deflects are used in an attempt to
balance battles. Seems odd don't you think that one particular skill is much less effective over time as more and
more ppl complain about it? This does not even hint? at the kind of backalley programming manipulation I am
suggesting? W/E...

How exactly does keeping lower level stat progression the same and ramping it up at higher levels disadvantage
a lower level player? They would have the same chance as everyone else at lower levels and there would be
even less of a gap versus abusers when they get to higher levels. If dex went 78-82-86-91-96-106-116-126-136,
doesn't this give "balanced" and lower level players an equal chance yet punish abusers? Does anyone really need
150 points in one stat? If someone happens to do it, it should be a joke build...like 255 HP, etc...

Multi is another issue...it NEVER simply did too much damage. We paid a premium of our energy to use it and it
was fine the way it was. As long as everyone faces the same nerf, I don't really care what you do with it. My
opinion is that it can no longer be your best attack (as it should be), does not affect the outcome of that many battles
anymore, and is now a novelty skill since it is very ineffective and costly. Lower the cost of the 2-person multi
even more and it might be taken more seriously. It's only good on rage...and that is not right.
Post #: 109
6/9/2012 15:42:21   
Ranloth
Banned
quote:

Multi is another issue...it NEVER simply did too much damage. We paid a premium of our energy to use it and it was fine the way it was.

Never? It's was only few points behind Bolt in damage yet attacked two enemies at cost of few more Energy. Never did enough? Currently it's 15% less damage which is maybe 10 damage less with good Multi and 4 EP less than before. Sure not a great trade-off but not every class can get back Energy either, or use different build - no one forces you to use Multi if you don't want to or can't use it effectively.

quote:

As long as everyone faces the same nerf, I don't really care what you do with it

Everyone received Multi nerf.. e.e

And it's not only good on Rage. So before, you could use it on Rage and normal attacks and same now. Less damage is obvious but skill dealing almost double damage than any other skill in one turn wasn't fair. If you didn't have Multi build in 2v2 before, you were kinda screwed since you could deal less damage. Besides using Multi at Rage is by far most wisest choice if you ask me, since it'll deal much more damage and save you Energy in long run, only problem is EMP (if you don't have high Energy or Energy regen).
AQ Epic  Post #: 110
6/9/2012 16:22:23   
Death Jr
Member

Every class has 2 passives. A merc imo has 1 and a half. The new rage increase hardly does anything thing. Since a merc is supposed to do a lot of damage why not change the current passive with a passive that increases the primary attack like a tech mages deadly aim or a passive that gives us more accuracy to counter a hunters shadow art since a merc mostly uses attacks that can be blocked. Also berserker should be unblockable like massacre.

< Message edited by Death Jr -- 6/9/2012 16:26:16 >
Post #: 111
6/9/2012 16:34:16   
khalidon5000
Member

Berserker is fine, although Adrenaline is a pretty bad passive.
Maybe if it had a slight buff it would be WORTH investing points in, especially since I fight in 1v1.
Epic  Post #: 112
6/9/2012 16:42:52   
Ranloth
Banned


 Then Zerker would get lower %s for fact it's unblockable since Mass and Zerker are close but difference is EP cost and one being blockable. It's fine now since there's SS and Bunker that are unblockable, not much but seems good enough for others and me so far. (Lvl 29 only..)

Khalidion how about this: https://docs.google.com/document/d/17hA9WgUBdLv9ly1EfXuANvhHW-hzsvcLI9NWSYe3jBE/edit?pli=1 - it's in the 2nd section about Mercs, first paragraph regarding Adrenaline. ^_^
AQ Epic  Post #: 113
6/9/2012 16:49:31   
khalidon5000
Member

That would make it worth investing some points in :D
On another note, I like your idea for the rearranged skill tree.
Epic  Post #: 114
6/9/2012 16:51:45   
tgod
Member

Cyber hunters need a debuff

AQ MQ Epic  Post #: 115
6/9/2012 16:57:35   
Ranloth
Banned


 @tgod
We know about it, been discussed many times actually. :P We're waiting for passives to be revamped which will mean PA will be nerfed too which is main cause of CHs being a bit too strong. For now, we're suggesting what can be changed. :)

@khalidon
They did promise Adrenaline buff if it needed one and this one would be pretty nice since skill isn't as useful and since Mercs have small HP regen (limited) and no EP regen but passive Armor (and no defensive debuff but Intimidate), lowering one's Rage would be good since they would take longer to accumulate it and you can catch up in damage with 'em. :P
And yeah, skill tree needs to be reworked on anyway since it's somewhat all over the place. Same with TM skill tree.
AQ Epic  Post #: 116
6/9/2012 17:26:45   
Joe10112
Member

My question is this:

When was last time we had CH balance/change to the class?
When did we start making ideas for changes?
Why has there been no response from the ED team abou balance?

Anyway, TLM is fine imo. They tNk,, they can win, nothing wrong.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 117
6/9/2012 17:29:42   
King Helios
Member

Winning as a TlM takes forever (especially in 1v1(15+ rounds)).

Strength just doesn't really work as TlM.
AQ MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 118
6/9/2012 19:05:34   
Death Jr
Member

At above

U can have a Str TLM but u need the right equip and most of the right equip are rare.
Post #: 119
6/9/2012 23:21:13   
Archlord Raistlin
Member
 

 @trans...as always you miss the real points of the comments entirely :/

Multi has been cornerstone of this game from the beginning. It has always worked well and was not absolutely necessary
to win. Anyone could do EQUALLY well with some other build in 2v2... SACRIFICES had to be made to have a good
multi build, so not everyone used it. When you dedicate your build to multi and spend 1/2 or more of your energy to
use it, it should hit for considerably more than 2 strikes, which are FREE. In that scenario a str/tank makes more sense
doesn't it?

And how is it not "fair" to have one skill deal more damage than other skills in one turn, when everyone has that skill
and the potential to use it? Simply devaluing the damage has nothing to do with fairness, except for those who DON'T
use it. Multi has always been fair, shields could be used to avoid the big hit or delay the use and it has RARELY been
a problem in 2v2 (except for merc/sup/crit abuse) and has NEVER been at the heart of ANY 2v2 BALANCE issues...

Sure 85% dmg is better than 75% dmg, but the truth is that it was an unnecessary change for any level player as far
as I can see. If this was such a great change, why are there LESS MULTI'S in use now in 2v2...
Post #: 120
6/10/2012 2:43:57   
Darkwing
Member

the multi nerf was worse for CH and made most go for strength. why? multi was the last long-range damage spell for CH. CH needs more long-range spells, instead of malfunction, emp, that's how we should be nerfed. CH should be a mix between mage and bounty hunter, not just a energy version of bounty hunter.

< Message edited by Darkwing -- 6/10/2012 2:44:46 >
Post #: 121
6/10/2012 4:51:51   
Arevero
Member

Right now, from what I've seen, after waiting for almost 1 and a half months, CHs' biggest problem yet, isn't about which skills we need and which skills we don't need. It's about no-one taking action, make the first step in fixing us CHs, take the first move now, to get it started, we are all waiting, right now, we are stuck in between PA and SC. We need to have a change by next update, it's been like this for weeks, and I personally can't take it anymore, only done 2 battles in this week.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

@archlord

Multi is, was ,always quite weak even before it was 'nerfed'. I only seemed to to Multi on rage, or if my enemy had low RES, other than that, Multi was a dead skill in my skill tree. Currently, artillery seems to be the best Multi since it uses SUP, which cause crits.

from 100% to 75%, and now 85%, it seems like we are going in circles -.-
Putting it back on 100% would be much better than 85%

On the other hand, TLM is getting really boring, they can only do poison, tank and STR(STR hardly works). Or, in easier words, they can't do anything unique.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 122
6/10/2012 8:35:59   
Calogero
Member

Call me crazy or whatever but with the exception of EMP, I actualy find CH rather balanced...

I can beat them and they can beat me... It's the EMP that ruins the class imo

_____________________________

Having a Signature is too mainstream
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 123
6/10/2012 8:37:19   
Ranloth
Banned


 @above
Crazy! xD

Just make EMP fixed amount, not improving by stats, which would lower down the drain obviously. Make it Level scaled too so it improves every few Levels or so, so it's balanced at all Levels.
AQ Epic  Post #: 124
6/10/2012 8:46:56   
khalidon5000
Member

Does anyone think the scaling of Deadly Aim gives it a higher percentage then it should at low levels?
Also, why is massacre the only ultimate that has no effects like rage reduction or life steal but instead has MASSIVE damage?
Epic  Post #: 125
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