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The Removal of Losses.

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6/19/2012 13:33:00   
King FrostLich
Member

Before I go to sleep and go to my inevitable doom college work for tomorrow, I just want to discuss some things in this game that somehow "disrupts" our view of gameplay. You see, losses were placed in order to know how many times the player was defeated in combat or unfortunately gets disconnected by loss of internet. In this present time where cyber hunters spam EMP, blood mages go strength, casters gone rampant and agility restricting every piece of creativity along with lag that literally annoys every player in game over a battle they are about to win, the internet kills you instead before you kill it.

Now, I understand most of you are going to say "But losses are part of the game, it won't be as much competitive as it is." well here's the thing. Do you see any creative build right now that wins in combat? I don't think so. Majority of people do NPC's for the sake of keeping their records clean from gaining a number of losses and it's permanently stuck in you. Embarassing moments getting beaten by a lower level, disconnection and random luck affects these and will stick within our 1v1, 2v2, juggernaut record forever thus "disrupting" our behaviour in EpicDuel itself because of these interferences.

As you may all know, some people barely even play this game well because of the losses and more weapons being released rather than greater balance features. The majority of this game quitted or are in retirement of the following reasons:


1.) Too expensive - 995 - 1200 varium for one virtual weapon and another 1250 to fully enhance it if you desire to do. If price > power in a game just to stay competitive, then this leads to customer unsatisfaction. Why would someone spend $50 over one weapon when they need a more powerful gun, bazooka, armor and robot to stay competitive? I, for one, would prefer to buy 20+ burgers or some important stuff rather than something unreal.

2.) Absurd disconnections + Random Luck + Balance Problems - As stated above, though some balance features were great, agility still exists and limits everything. This game also had bugs such as freezing battles wherein you get stuck in a 2v2 match if one player leaves. The health booster glitch that if you use a booster, the whole battle freezes although you can still talk. And of course, the lag of Delta when it was first released. Everyone was skipping turns and it ruined the beginning of Delta including Tactical Mercenary having smokescreen, field medic no longer heals as much as it can which is absurdly weak. Disconnections prove to be the most annoying thing when in combat. Once you see it, you know you already lose it whether you like it or not which makes losses unfair especially when it comes to update days.

3.) Fame - So far, I see it as the only feature that disrupts normal gameplay, why? Duh, asking people for fame everyday and what do you get in exchange? An achievement, yes it's an achievement but do they do anything to you other than just gain stars for your character? Of course not and people who want to ask you to fame them makes you feel like pressing the ignore button or even reporting them to a moderator.

Now let's get back to this loss issue. As I have mentioned above, disconnections are clearly the most annoying thing that will happen to you when you're about to win and even while you are NPC'ing. Why do I want it removed anyway in my personal opinion? Look around you, I see many people NPC'ing in order to just "clean" their 1v1 record. 2v2 is unreliable because players are afraid and angry of having stupid noob partners doing the wrong move. Currently, juggernaut is the only reliable and the safest mode for high leveled players but what about the low levels? Simple, they end up suffering bad 2v2 record which are then forced to go to 1v1 and after realizing 1v1 is as nearly crap as facing a juggernaut, therefore they result to NPC'ing every day instead of really doing 1v1 matches.


Epic Duel much? Nope, I call it Losing Duels. Don't get me wrong, the main reason why comicalbiker and other people get alot of wins in 1v1 is that they NPC as well. Though most of them at all time solo leaderboard have alot of wins, majority of them are gained by NPC'ing nowadays. No wonder losses keep us down because of unfair matches. Any thoughts or speculation?

< Message edited by King FrostLich -- 6/19/2012 13:53:29 >

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Epic  Post #: 1
6/19/2012 13:51:02   
Angels Holocaust
Member

Wait? You go to college? That's cool. I really like this thread, our losses do absolutely nothing for us. It just looks good, that's all. I agree with your idea, it needs to be implemented.

I agree with some of your points about npcing. There is no point in playing where a noob can somehow luck sack the living day lights out of you. Since there is no math in this game there should be no losses. Npcing is the only safe method to play this game.

< Message edited by Angels Holocaust -- 6/19/2012 13:52:43 >
Post #: 2
6/19/2012 13:53:07   
Luna_moonraider
Member

well imho the low lvls which get thrown into jugs should get their 2v2 loss cleared. juggernauts makes it hard for a low lvl to lvl i have noticed this because well i have tons of alts and well i tried lvl them up to lvl 34 but gave up half way because well it takes time and u can there is a dry zone where u can only npc if u want to get solid wins.the dry zone is from lvl 25 to lvl 30. lvl 29 and 30 are the hardest lvls to play without npcing basically u r stuck/forced to do npcs during these 2 lvls if not well u wont lvl up fast. well lvl up from lvl 31 to 32 to 33 and to 34 is also significantly hard without npc and doing 1v1 as a non var at these lvl = certain death if u do not have decent enhancements.imho varium enhancements should be removed and there should be a away to change varium to credits. yes i know this might some the same and not solving any problems but it will create an illusion that u do not use so much varium to just buy and fully enhance a weapon. this illusion will also make non var players feel that var players do not have a way to directly enhance their weps. yes i know it would be very annoying to do this but it would certainly help.



_____________________________
AQW Epic  Post #: 3
6/19/2012 13:56:54   
King FrostLich
Member

In my fair opinion, if losses were to be removed then I can battle 1v1 FREELY without the need of worrying losses. Disconnects? Who cares, if there is no such thing as an absurd loss then there also by means.....no such thing as a loss of disconnection.

2v2 with a stupid partner when losses are removed? Doesn't matter. No such thing as loss anymore if this ever happened and I can always repeat it anyway rather than getting disappointed of what happened.

< Message edited by King FrostLich -- 6/19/2012 14:01:20 >
Epic  Post #: 4
6/19/2012 14:19:54   
Stabilis
Member

Intriguing.

My personal opinion for records would include the following:

瓶emoves losses √

病dd k/d %

病dd highest kill streak

病dd highest death streak

病dd NPCs to a seperate record!!!

病dd total time in-game

病dd total time

病dd most used skill

病dd most used weapon

病dd most used armour

病dd most fought NPC

病dd daily versions of all of the above

I know some of the things that I mentioned sound CoD'ish... I know, there are many things about CoD that I do not appreciate too. You have to admit though, CoD has one of the BEST constructions of playercard/combat records.

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 6/19/2012 15:07:01 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 5
6/19/2012 15:01:12   
rej
Member

No, definitely not. Removing the lose counter would encourage players to use builds that get fast wins with relatively low win percentages. Namely strength builds. There are already far too many things that encourage players to use abusively high strength builds. Not supported.

< Message edited by rej -- 6/19/2012 15:09:01 >

_____________________________

It is difficult to enjoy your cake when your pants are on fire.
~Dragon of Time
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 6
6/19/2012 15:03:04   
Angels Holocaust
Member

quote:

No, definitely not. Removing the lose counter would encourage players to use builds that get fast wins with relatively low win percentages. Namely strength builds. There is already far too many things that encourage players to use abusively high strength builds. Not supported.


I don't know what game you've been playing but people already use auto pilot strength builds. Blood mages use strength, bounty hunters do it too.
Post #: 7
6/19/2012 15:11:17   
rej
Member

quote:

I don't know what game you've been playing but people already use auto pilot strength builds. Blood mages use strength, bounty hunters do it too.


quote:

There are already far too many things that encourage players to use abusively high strength builds.


How embarrassing, you seem to have completely missed my second-from-last sentence. Of course there people using strength builds. That is the most prominent reasoning behind my previous post.

AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 8
6/19/2012 15:29:54   
Midnightsoul
Member

I think losses should stay, but they're hidden...

quote:

agility still exists and limits everything


I stated in the balance discussion that agility should be level scaled...but it got ignored...
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 9
6/19/2012 16:21:24   
goldslayer1
Member

i agree, angels made this argument before about removing losses, and i supported it.

if losses were removed, low lvls wouldn't feel so down about themselves having more losses than wins.
and it would let players do the builds they want without the fear of having to lose alot.

IMO the only thing that should stay is wins.
and while there may be bad sides for doing this, i would say the positive out weights negative by alot.

it would also ease up some pressure on the balance team.
and build copying wouldn't be such an issue. i would not call builds OP, because mainly ALL builds were made by someone creative, and then copied by the bandwagon in order to win. if losses were removed, newbies who usually copy builds can try their own stuff without risk.

and since theres no losses, (like i mentioned earlier) lower lvls wouldn't be disappointed.
i have seen many lower lvls tell me that they are quitting because they have more losses than wins.

not to mention, it would allow other players to play freely and not have to NPC, NPCs are boring, but they give u fast wins, and at high %.

so this idea, i support. losses should be removed along with battle count.
AQW Epic  Post #: 10
6/19/2012 16:23:52   
King Helios
Member

Strength abusers would have a field day with this.

No losses? Might as well go as fast as I can.

NOT supported.
AQ MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 11
6/19/2012 16:52:58   
goldslayer1
Member

people making the "everyone will be str build" argument.
heres what i have to say about that, even without this, people will be doing str builds regardless.
so i dont see why not.
i mean, if ur gonna have str builds anyway (or according to u guys), why not actually do something good? like removing losses?

i would like to use some super charge BM builds, or support BM builds.
or heck, maybe i feel like getting nostalgic and use the old str merc builds from gamma (which btw got me 50% winrate not including NPCs, so now i dont really like to use it anymore because of the huge amount of losses)

or perhaps it would help relieve people's head aches about the lack of balance in the game.
AQW Epic  Post #: 12
6/19/2012 17:19:12   
Stabilis
Member

@Duel,

The core reason as to why Strength builds are common is because the game is currently severely imbalanced in PVP. If PVP in EpicDuel was performing better in a more balanced way... then Strength builds will be 25% of the total stats used between all players not more not less. We would say the same thing for Support at the beginning of Delta. Strength is just a fad until action is taken (and it would be miraculous if PVP in EpicDuel became balanced if the next balance update did not cease up and cause yet another overpowerment imbalance).
AQ Epic  Post #: 13
6/19/2012 17:25:36   
friend18
Member

I would quit the game if they removed losses. There would be no REAL competitive element to the game and it would simply be like playing Dragonfable in PVP mode.

There are MANY counter-builds that are successful. If you run across me, challenge me, and I'll show you :) Yennefer and a few other people have already started using my build :) If you check, you'd see that comicalbiker doesn't NPC his entire record. It's a small amount, but his builds are still pretty good. It's quite possible to maintain a very good record. My non-varium bounty hunter has an 83% win ratio in solo (without NPCing). In fact, he can take down full varium level 34's. It's all about how you distribute the points and knowing what to do in each situation. If you want, then use the player's 2v2 record to gauge how good they are then, although people would probably start complaining about how his/her partner has a bad internet connection and has disconnected on him/her.

The large amount of strength heavy builds is easy to deal with. At this point, there are A TON of stat points, so people just throw it into strength because at a certain point, it's pointless to tank (since you'll just end up getting raged more often).

I'm with the the current enhancement system. It's a little less than $15 to obtain a pretty powerful weapon with full enhancements. And at the same time, you get a "gift" for purchasing the initial varium package.

With the disconnects, it's most likely on your end... I've had three accidental disconnects the last three months. That's all.

With the fame issue, I just ignore them. You do realize that you could just simply ignore them and they'll just move on, right? If you're in college, you should understand that it's mostly kids playing this game and if you ignore them, they'll stop bothering you.

@Angels Holocaust - There is a LOT of math in this game. Don't you ever calculate your damage output during a game to see if you'll be able to hit them, or determine their block rate/deflection chance, before you make a move? That's what I use the extra time for... It literally takes a few seconds to do the calculations inside your head.

< Message edited by friend18 -- 6/19/2012 17:38:35 >
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 14
6/19/2012 17:27:22   
King Helios
Member

Depressed Void, I think you forgot Health and Energy. More like 16 2/3 %.

< Message edited by Duel Domination -- 6/19/2012 17:28:02 >
AQ MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 15
6/19/2012 17:39:59   
Stabilis
Member

@Duel,

quote:

Health and Energy


True, those are character stats. I would have included health and energy but they are even more basic than the 4 basic stats. Health and energy are elementary, they improve no skills directly, do not change the character's battle mechanics like weapon damage or connect chance (health does however improve immediate defence [absorbing damage]), not used in requirements, health is the principle factor in determining a win or loss in a battle and energy is the principle factor in determining whether a skill can be used or not. Health and energy can be exploited, but when these stats are exploited we call that dummying (example 100% energy) because unlike basic stat attributes, health and energy hinder the player in the long run for what was said above like not being able to equip any items because of stat requirements or better control their outgoing and incoming damage.

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 6/19/2012 17:40:44 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 16
6/19/2012 20:54:39   
Lord Machaar
Member

@Frostlich
You better go to sleep, Lol, but i really like your critics about NPC's, Now as i see in the homepage of the game is Player Vs Player Online Battles, what i can see in-game, is... Wait a second "Offline Battles", Yes, that's what i'm gonna call from now on, NPC's = Offline Battles :D, now let's go back to our subject, I don't see that the game developers have a problem with that, actually they are encouraging this with a big smile, BEST proof, Brain Wash, actually there is a faction called ( i don't wanna say names ), one of their rules, is NPCing over the top of every hour, actually made me laugh on the faction leader for like half an hour, i was like common what's the fun in that? Ambitious is suks, this dude is not looking for fun gaming, he is looking for... hmm, anyways, my idea is, Too many players care about their Record and self reputation more than fun gaming.

Well, i'm kinda supporting this idea, somewhat, but u didn't explain enough, maybe tomorrow...


Yeah, gimme 15 free wins in juggernauts every hour, and we can discuss about balancing juggernauts ^_^, that's my sentence to everyone who says juggernauts is unfair and stuffs like that...and to 2vs2 players also, and we can talk about balancing those 2 battle modes...


@Luna_moonraider
Supported, the enhancements thingy, but not the juggy thingy, u want to remove this battle mode or what? or u want to make us face 2 lvl 34?


@bloodknight997
up and down, nothing to do in town...
Sometimes it takes more than 2 words to express an idea and make it as much as possible clear to other people, i can summarise my post in this, Offline battles are Suks, understand something? read my post and you will get it...

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 6/19/2012 21:10:34 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 17
6/19/2012 21:04:12   
Midnightsoul
Member

Can everyone read my post? I MEAN SERIOUSLY, I HATE THREADS WITH IDEAS THAT BLOW UP THE PAGE. Just make some simple ideas...jeez...

During the daily leaderboards, there should still be a ratio...
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 18
6/19/2012 21:07:40   
Jekyll
Member

Supported! Losses aren't a true reflection of our ability - we lose many tines due to luck, disconnections, lag and getting kicked by admin. Meanwhile, wins are wins, nothing else to describe it. Losses are really completely unnecessary and should be abolished.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 19
6/19/2012 22:47:30   
King FrostLich
Member

quote:

There would be no REAL competitive element to the game and it would simply be like playing Dragonfable in PVP mode


Actually, removing losses also keeps the motivation of players from battling instead of thinking about their record. In our human nature, our desire of excellence somehow is related to this game's record. The real competition if it were to be removed is how many wins you can get in one day although I do want the win ratio to stay but losses, nope. Plus think about it, if creative builds are being destroyed because it loses to strength builds alot of times and losses were removed, then people would at least try to go something for fun. Heck, maybe some more beta players would come back to play again for fun and no loss record.

quote:

In fact, he can take down full varium level 34's. It's all about how you distribute the points and knowing what to do in each situation.


Had it not been for the new formula based on how increased % of damage is calculated was made, that build is easily destroyed by tanks. Besides, most bounty hunters go for strength, massacre build nowadays.

quote:

Strength abusers would have a field day with this.


I had a plasma cannon build that was slightly overpowered when I was a blood mage. Not sure if it works on 1v1 since I never really did it because I know cyber hunters can destroy it quickly.


As far other people, wins can stay but losses removed in the process.

Edited out slightly personal comment ~Lycus

< Message edited by Lycus -- 6/26/2012 6:52:08 >
Epic  Post #: 20
6/19/2012 22:54:38   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 @king People still know when they lose. Removing losses from their profile doesn't make them black out each time they lose and not know about it. They aren't going to make a creative build that loses all the time even if it doesn't show on their profiles. And strength builds would run rampant. One of the very few things stopping them now is that some people don't like the ratio they get from it. That's pretty much the only downside to them right now.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 21
6/19/2012 22:57:28   
King FrostLich
Member

Moose, the ratio still is going to affect but that word losses is also the annoying part. ANd no, I'm sure not everyone will be going for strength build. If they do and start to realize everyone is all about strength, I'm sure some would go for a strong emp tank build if they are a CH.
Epic  Post #: 22
6/19/2012 23:04:07   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 As long as their is that "Losses" column in my profile I will always attempt to make a build to win and keep my losses low. I really don't see a point of doing anything in a competitive game if the only thing that matters is how many wins I can get and not if I can get a good amount of wins consistently while fighting Non NPC enemies.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 23
6/19/2012 23:07:28   
King FrostLich
Member

Though high leveled players such as you and me desire that attempt for making good builds, what else can you do? If you don't battle then you don't get credits. If you lose, you gain at least 80% but that loss can depend on what type it is. Were you defeated by random luck, disconnection? I'm pretty sure many players blame random luck such as people with low dex tend to block them instead of him blocking their attacks.

< Message edited by King FrostLich -- 6/19/2012 23:08:08 >
Epic  Post #: 24
6/19/2012 23:33:25   
rej
Member

quote:

Strength abusers would have a field day with this.

No losses? Might as well go as fast as I can.

NOT supported.


Yes! Thank you! I said the exact same thing earlier. I'm others can see the potential problems with this.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 25
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