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RE: No more nerfs just buffs.

 
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8/28/2012 20:57:51   
rej
Member

quote:

Remember with static this way, while the chances are low (which is why most people want static back the way it was since it was granteed to give x amount of energy) you can gain more they you would if you crit with this especially a rage crit since it is based off actual damage instead of raw damage.


I'm not sure what fantasy world you are living in, but in today's world, the only players that you could gain more energy off of are players with little or no resistance. The players that matter (Other high level var users) generally have enough resistance to cut the average Cyber Hunter's attack by 75%. For example:
Imagine a player has 60 potential damage from an attack (Weapon damage + strength level) while his opponent has the latest armor along with maxed out Hybrid. Now, lets say that his opponent has a reasonably low tech level (we will just use the number 34 for this example). 34 + 5 + 6 = 45. So, our average Cyber Hunter's Static charge, which ordinarily would have regained about 18 energy (30% of 60) now only returns 4-5 energy (30% of 15). Yikes.

I hope you read this, Rabble. It might spark an idea as to how to bring Cyber Hunters back up to par with the other classes.

< Message edited by rej -- 8/28/2012 20:59:21 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 26
8/28/2012 21:02:30   
shadesofblue
Member

Correction on my previous post: The only way to regain more energy is if the opponent has 0 resistance and you get a crit with the Infernal Interdictor. So even if the other player had 0 resistance, we would still only be getting the same energy back as before Static was nerfed. And no one has 0 resistance, even with a malf.
AQW  Post #: 27
8/28/2012 21:21:45   
Naruto Uzamaki
Member
 

ty we got smart people people u and rej so far
Post #: 28
8/28/2012 21:26:21   
King Helios
Member

To gain 6 Energy (Gained from max Assim), a player would have to do about 21 damage. Against my tank build, unmalfed, that would be 25-30 +35 Damage required.

AQ MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 29
8/28/2012 21:30:18   
Mother1
Member

Reg 30% of 30 damage would give you 9 energy back since ten percent of 30 is 3 and times that by 3 would give you 9. Plus not all CH are suffering because of this nerf. The ones who are suffering the most are the ones who would overly rely on static and not invest energy into the using it, or would overly abuse it for their heal loops. It was also said by cindy herself that they nerfed static this way because of heal loops.

But onto another thing. You are claimed that the way static is right now is too weak, however look it at the other way. is it far for someone who does 3-7 damage to a person using static to gain 15-18 energy? I think not and also when it was back at 44% would it be fair to gain 22-23 energy for only giving 3-7 damage? I don't think so that in itself is extremely overpowered and you know it. I have played this game for some time just as many other people have, and I have watched many CH gain huge amounts of energy for little damage. How is that balanced? Can you answer that for me? The answer is simple it wasn't. That was entirely too much energy to be gaining back for inflicting so little damage. This was abused as many users complained and it was stuff like that that caused the heal looping that annoyed many users which in turn caused this nerf.

I am not saying that it is all CH that did this, but there were those who did stuff like this, and as a result all CH have to suffer for those who did this. Now I have been playing the game as my starting class, and I have fought my share of CH. Some who are trying to use the old builds that relyed on static, and some who changed their build to be more flexable. While I have lost and beaten both kinds there are plenty of CH who don't use the forums who say they can still win their fights even with the nerf just that thet had to ADEPT to the chance. These come in the forms of both Varium and non Varium CH.

So until they change it back or do something to buff it just Adept like you did to the first and second times Static was nerfed. This can be done by as I said before investing points into energy instead of remaining at the default or adding 2-4 points worth.
Epic  Post #: 30
8/28/2012 22:08:54   
scientist97
Member

I think CH are a LITTLE bit under-powered right now. Mainly because their energy gain is less now. Maybe if they bump the Static Charge up 5%-10%, then we're talking.

And also, I agree with people on here that said the big buffs will not be fair. Of course, it will be fun, but for the sake of equality among players, we can't buff too much for the fear that someone could kill his/her opponent in 1 or 2 shots. So small nerfs and small buffs are the way to go.
AQW Epic  Post #: 31
8/29/2012 3:15:03   
khalidon5000
Member

Haha CH's underpowered...
You guys just haven't TRIED to be creative with your builds.
you can't rely on Static Charge like you did before, big deal.
I saw TrizZzCentrino's CH build and it wrecked me...(5 Focus btw)
Epic  Post #: 32
8/29/2012 4:30:18   
zion
Member

The static nerf was necessary. For over two years, the devs eventually realize that there is an OP heal-loop build and get rid of it... The devs have been very clear that uber-tank heal loopers are not what they want... people find this game more fun when they are doing decent damage each round and battles don't take forever. In a word - about time!

In terms of nerfs and buffs: Small + or - 1 damage here and there are bandaids and don't address the real issue: The classes aren't ideal yet. Skills like supercharge for BM and assimilate for TM just don't make sense. BM has BL and a special attack that has health drain which doesn't stack makes no sense. TM already has reroute, wouldn't assimilate as a weak health drainer make more sense? Point is skill trees are in need of major work and I'm sure there are many great ideas in the balance discussion, but it is a bit of a mess and hard to follow...
We need a better way for people to make clear suggestions for balance... Does anyone want to put together a template for skill tree adjustments that is clear so the devs can actually take some of these suggestions into account?

--Noiz

_____________________________

AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 33
8/29/2012 4:41:11   
Ranloth
Banned


Well, gk365, we received Assimilate when 9th skill was added to every class and TMs lacked Energy Drain so this works like one which is blockable and has set low values so we cannot improve it with anything & receive half of it for ourselves. It's useful skill and should stay with TMs since they aren't all about spells although since Assimilate drains EP too as well as transfers some to you, it is magical in a way. :P Making it Health Drainer doesn't really work since TMs focus on Energy rather than Health, it sounds better idea for BMs if you think about it since the Heal would be set and probably not stack with BL either (damage% to Health + HP Assimilate).
AQ Epic  Post #: 34
8/29/2012 4:42:26   
Nexus...
Member

I think everyone is turning this into a balance thread, and I think people need to respond to the topic, not use this as an excuse to write about their feelings as they pertain to the recent balance changes and their class.

Rabble...I respect you.

I really do respect you (second time I've said it), but I'm a little turned off by the fact that you think you have enough experience with this game to have a reasonable opinion about this topic. How long have you been with the game now, a couple months? Many of us have been here many years, and the balance system is broken. I'm sure you have played other games, but other games don't take years to get their balance to a stable point, only this one does. Yes, you are right, changing a class in anyway will be either a nerf or a buff, and I fully acknoledge that (never disagreed with it). However, nerfing and buffing to a point where nothing is getting done in the long term is unreasonable at best, and extremely unproductive at its worst. We need to get balance to a place where everything is more or less even, where builds aren't restricted by stats that don't belong, and builds arn't ultimately defined by who has more stats or enhancements. This should be a strategy game, and in its current state its a crap shoot.

As I said, I respect you (third time), but that doesn't mean I respect your opinion on this topic. Generally you are correct, but ultimately the classes will need one final buff or one final nerf to put them in place, and after that happens we should be in a place where balance isn't effecting the outcome of a game; skill, decision-making, and strategy are instead.


You get what I'm saying? Probably not, and if that is the case please feel free to PM me and I will try to clarify.


Prophet

< Message edited by Nexus... -- 8/29/2012 4:45:22 >
Epic  Post #: 35
8/29/2012 5:02:11   
Unknown Menace
Member

quote:

This is a massive exaggeration.


No, this would be the case if the nerf was only -1 PA.
The SC nerf seriously destroyed me and i simply just won't change class for it.

Everybody saying: Well invest more in EP. Easy talking, those points have to come from somewhere else.
I did manage to give myself more energy and even lower a few of my other skills to save some energy and it's still impossible if i just regain +5 on SC unless its malfed which again costs energy that i don't have after just 3 moves.

Edit
If you don't get what i mean by class change, than look up the first and shall i say most famous CH's that come to your mind.
What do you see. Call it coincidence?

< Message edited by Unknown Menace -- 8/29/2012 5:36:51 >
Epic  Post #: 36
8/29/2012 5:22:35   
khalidon5000
Member

Post I was replying to was deleted :S
Anyway RabbleFroth is right nerfs are needed as well as buffs.
I think in the future we need a PTR server so the effect of nerfs and buffs on the balance tracker is seen before being fully implemented.

< Message edited by khalidon5000 -- 8/29/2012 11:51:29 >
Epic  Post #: 37
8/29/2012 9:48:01   
zion
Member

@Trans Totally disagree. The premise is true, but BM doesn't have an energy drain. And with a health drain, TM might be able to heal loop a bit better as it is synergistic with reroute not redundant...
Anyway, the original classes were never balanced, so obviously twice the number of classes will never be totally balanced with the current system. Everyone complains about BM, but BM doesn't even have an (usable) ultimate skill - berzerker would even be better!
We don't need nerfs or buffs - this +1 -1 cat-and-mouse game is too much work for the current staff. The classes nee a big fix including entirely different skills and ordering of the skills. Everyone with ideas should head over to the balance thread and present their ideas. Let the devs have a few months to sort it out and come back with a better system.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 38
8/29/2012 9:59:16   
Viesty
Member

Supported, since the gap between Variums and non-Varium must be shrunk.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 39
8/29/2012 12:38:15   
  RabbleFroth
Member

quote:

..but I'm a little turned off by the fact that you think you have enough experience with this game to have a reasonable opinion about this topic. How long have you been with the game now, a couple months? Many of us have been here many years, and the balance system is broken. I'm sure you have played other games, but other games don't take years to get their balance to a stable point, only this one does. Yes, you are right, changing a class in anyway will be either a nerf or a buff, and I fully acknoledge that (never disagreed with it). However, nerfing and buffing to a point where nothing is getting done in the long term is unreasonable at best, and extremely unproductive at its worst. We need to get balance to a place where everything is more or less even, where builds aren't restricted by stats that don't belong, and builds arn't ultimately defined by who has more stats or enhancements.


Getting a little off topic here, but I absolutely agree with you on pretty much every point.

The parts I don't agree with first: "Balance" is never in stability in a game with consistent updates. It's also more difficult for us due to extreme time constraints mixed between balance, bug fixes, features, content, etc that needs to happen each week. This is a failing of our current structure, not an excuse. Secondly, yes I'm newer to the game than many people, but this is true in most development teams. Even if I had been around as long as you, the cumulative experience from hundreds of players that play the game far more than I have the means to would *greatly* outweigh mine. That's why the opinions and understanding of the community is taken as a part of the balance discussion. Not the only part, mind you, but it is a section of what I look at when I take stock of balance.

Secondly, there are a number of systems in place that were developed before my time. Without spending more development time than I've had to work with to overthrow some of those systems, I simply have to work within the constraints of the system to accomplish what needs to be done. I would very, very much like to turn some of the game on its head and rip out some of the systems that are limiting our ability to get the game in a better state (like overlapping skills on classes). But there are a thousand other things that we want to do (maybe more!), and sometimes what we want to do doesn't mesh up with what needs to be done in the short term.

I do agree that stop-gap solutions are not the long term solution to issues with balance. I also agree that there are too many restrictions on builds. We just need to find a good system, and the time to build it, that will alleviate some of these issues.

(The last I'll post on this sort of thing in this thread since we need to get back to the main topic at hand)
Post #: 40
8/29/2012 13:23:38   
doomturtle
Member

Yah I've had strength cybers rage static on me and get 8 back at rank 10
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 41
8/29/2012 13:32:08   
kingpowerlord
Member

I agree with doomturtle, cuber hunters are past the point of UP against hank I only gain 4 energy on my level 30 ch.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 42
8/29/2012 13:43:40   
Mother1
Member

While it may not seem fair (since it has just been changed from raw damage to actual damage) It is a now more balanced and less abused skill. In the past when I played as a ch with my main I could always gain a set amount of energy since it was based on raw damage instead of actual damage. While I never really abused this skill myself since I would also invest a at least 10-15 stat points into energy, there are others who would as it has been stated tank up and abuse static.

It was said by cindy that people complained about the heal loops that were abused by some CH especially those who would static gain a high number in the teens worth of energy, booster twice and then use heal. Also how is it not overpowered to gain 15-16 or 17-18 energy back when you only have to deal X amount of Damage without being blocked? It was even worse when it was 44% percent raw damage since you could gain 23-24 energy back while only doing needing to connect static which is enough energy for a level 4 heal. With tank CH doing this they were overwealm other players. That wasn't fair in the least either.

Besides Rabblefroth himself made a post in another topic stating that the data show CH are still doing good in battles so I doubt they will change it anytime soon.

< Message edited by Mother1 -- 8/29/2012 13:45:15 >
Epic  Post #: 43
8/29/2012 17:17:20   
doomturtle
Member

Cyber hunter static is underpowered. If you are fighting someone with reroute when you use static they will gain the same anout of energy as you. Or close to the same.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 44
8/29/2012 17:41:14   
Mother1
Member

^ It depends on the person's reroute. they one hit me they would gain more energy then me since I only use level 7 reroute while most use max level static. Besides can please answer me how is it fair that a CH gained a high amount of energy if the strike only doesn't even do anywhere near the number of energy the get back? Even assimilation at max level the most you can get back is 6 on (On a fixed scale that doesn't have anything to do with strength raw or actual damage period)

With it being this way it is more balanced, less abused, and as rabble said the CH are still doing well even after this nerf. If the data said otherwise the staff would be buffing static or returning it to the way it was before the nerf, but the data says otherwise.
Epic  Post #: 45
8/29/2012 21:15:51   
doomturtle
Member

Static is the worst energy regain skill right now. Reroute you get every time you are attacked. While static can be used every third turn. And assimilate lowers enemy energy and regains your energy which ruins builds with out an energy regain skill.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 46
8/29/2012 21:30:44   
Mother1
Member

^ then that would have to be the merc class since every other class has a way to get back energy. TM and TLM have reroute BM and BH have reflex boost and CH have their static charge. while it isn't as strong as it used to be you still have it better then merc who don't have any skills to gain energy back.

< Message edited by Mother1 -- 8/29/2012 21:31:18 >
Epic  Post #: 47
9/3/2012 20:54:54   
InceptionAE
Member

I'm a CH and I played after the nerf for a time now. I have seen the effect and to comparison with before I think it got a bit more fair. But now if you want to play as a CH you're going to have to have some experience with mercenary. Because we're basically mercenary with malfunction. We must use our energy efficiently to take over our opponent. Some CH's are whining about the nerf, I however am not. I find it fine for now. Until other balance changes will make it impossible to take over opponents, then you have the right to complain about the nerf. At this moment, I've already had a mage with max plasma bolt and supercharge killed, just using my str build. The nerf wasn't that bad.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 48
9/3/2012 21:02:20   
King FrostLich
Member

quote:

The parts I don't agree with first: "Balance" is never in stability in a game with consistent updates. It's also more difficult for us due to extreme time constraints mixed between balance, bug fixes, features, content, etc that needs to happen each week. This is a failing of our current structure, not an excuse. Secondly, yes I'm newer to the game than many people, but this is true in most development teams. Even if I had been around as long as you, the cumulative experience from hundreds of players that play the game far more than I have the means to would *greatly* outweigh mine. That's why the opinions and understanding of the community is taken as a part of the balance discussion. Not the only part, mind you, but it is a section of what I look at when I take stock of balance.

Secondly, there are a number of systems in place that were developed before my time. Without spending more development time than I've had to work with to overthrow some of those systems, I simply have to work within the constraints of the system to accomplish what needs to be done. I would very, very much like to turn some of the game on its head and rip out some of the systems that are limiting our ability to get the game in a better state (like overlapping skills on classes). But there are a thousand other things that we want to do (maybe more!), and sometimes what we want to do doesn't mesh up with what needs to be done in the short term.

I do agree that stop-gap solutions are not the long term solution to issues with balance. I also agree that there are too many restrictions on builds. We just need to find a good system, and the time to build it, that will alleviate some of these issues.


And that is why a PTR server is the best solution. Look at AQW, they used this to test the Necromancer class and other skills for new classes to come out though it didn't come out well at the start since it was new but since AQW is not a pure PvP game, players there could care less about class balance unless they are addicted to playing the bludrut killing each other. ED is all about knowing your strategy in-game that is why if you want to cut developing time and test balance in a much more efficient and less time consuming manner, create a PTR server simple as that. Not being offensive here but the current balance team ED has right now doesn't do its job well.

< Message edited by King FrostLich -- 9/3/2012 21:03:22 >
Epic  Post #: 49
9/4/2012 13:24:11   
  RabbleFroth
Member

A test realm would alleviate some of our issues, but would create some new ones as well.

Unfortunately it's not something where we can just say "Yes that's a great idea, it's better for us in every way" and go do it. It'd be great for large-scale changes that need a significant amount of testing (a week or more), but for day-to-day things it would slow us down. Usually we try to break off new things into something we can accomplish within about 4 days of work (we lose around a day of hard development time a week to meetings, discussions, and patch preparation, give or take). Otherwise we get into territory where we might have to miss a weekly release, which we try to avoid if at all possible.

Definitely agree that a PTR would be darn-near essential for certain changes though.
Post #: 50
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