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RE: Tale of the two heroes

 
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3/7/2013 16:59:44   
delta blitz
Member

Hey I noticed something....someone edited the 16th, 15th and 21th chapter of my story(There are scenes that are written differently from how I write and says something different from the orginal copy I'm checking it against).

^Never mind I fixed it back


< Message edited by delta blitz -- 3/7/2013 18:13:48 >
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 26
3/7/2013 19:20:47   
Argeus the Paladin
Member

quote:

Ok ok I'm glad there isn't issues with my activity and seeing as I have you guy's attention now I might as well restructure my story.....though don't expect much other than bolded chapters and spacing changes. Then hopefully I will be able to some comments based on my story content.


Even beyond the formatting issue, your writing has numerous problems both major and minor. To the point that, no offense, to everyone who isn't your friends and accept it without second thoughts, the story itself is eclipsed by the sheer number of problems. You might well have the plot that would put Quenta Silmarillion to shame, and yet very few would get through the writing to get through it.

The good news is, none of them is unfixable if you want to. The bad news is, it's going to take a while. The ugly news is, when you're through with that you'll no longer recognize your story. Bear in mind this is absolutely okay: The first draft of everything is crud, and every author worth his salt has to pay up a sum of... let's say 500000 words' worth of old shames and 2000 working hours before he could even get anywhere. Don't panic. Bear with me.

Let's get started:

1) Rule number 1 of writing: Show, don't tell.

Don't tell what a character is feeling, show it through his dialogue and action. Don't tell how awesome a character is, show it through action scene. Don't tell what a character is, show it through describing everything relevant about him. What is relevant is entirely up to the author's - your - discretion.

2) Dialogue is not replacement for proper description. Narmful dialogue is ESPECIALLY not replacement for proper conveyance of emotions. Caps lock and an overabundance of exclamation marks are an emotional scene's most bitter nemesis.

Forget everything the script-based nature of entertainment these days - video game cutscenes, TV shows, even theatrical performances - might have taught you about how sometimes uttering a simple powerful line is enough. This does not work in writing. You don't have gorgeous actors with booming voice, you don't have Hans Zimmer-esque music, you don't have ultra-realistic sound effects, you don't have the camera sweeping around the scene... you don't have anything that makes other media what they are except your words. That's why dialogue alone is never enough; you need to describe, and do so diligently and creatively beyond "The hero has an X, it looks like a Y with a Z attached to it". Your story consists of roughly five-sixth dialogue, a twelfth description and the other twelfth caps and numbers. This is not a good thing.

Now, you might counter this by saying "But my dialogue is good enough! It has soul!" Well... yes, sometimes a good line of dialogue is worth a thousand of description. But we're talking about such things like Gandalf's "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends", or Theoden King's "We shall have peace… when you answer for the burning of the Westfold, and the children that lie dead there. We shall have peace, when the lives of the soldiers, whose bodies were hewn even as they lay dead against the gates of the Hornburg, are avenged! When you hang from a gibbet for the sport of your own crows… we shall have peace.". Not things like "WHAT AM I FIGHTING FOOOR?!?" or "People die when they are killed". The first is dramatic. The second is narmful. Narmful - that is, overly dramatic dialogue are at best unintentionally funny to read, and at worst downright pretentious.

quote:

“I must, I must find a way the Summoner said as his eyes began to shut on their own, I must….I must…..”, “I MUST NOT GIVE INTO THE DARKNESS the Summoner said as he forced his eyes open and took control of his body, I hold the pride of my clan in my heart and that burning light will shine its way through the dark.


Tell me which of the two this line falls in with.

Even worse are the overuse of exclamation marks - you are allowed ONE exclamation mark per sentence, just like a full stop. The writing is supposed to convey every feeling from its own merit, not by any fancy formatting, for one thing. And for the other, well, it is the mark of a juvenile teenager on Facebook or Twitter rather than an author to be taken seriously.

3) Game mechanic is NOT your friend, even in a game's fanfiction. To a lesser extent, character dialogue should never be the only means of info-dumping

In this work and the others you've written, you have the tendency to write as if the world runs on game logic. While this is sometimes acceptable, in most cases they aren't. Even by the tongue-in-cheek standards of AE games, we are to assume game mechanics is just an appropriation of what game-world life is like. Disrespecting this breaks immersion severely. The same goes for massive info-dumping in dialogue that serves no reason but to ham-fistedly inform the reader what you want the reader to know. Both are fully capable of single-handedly destroying the fluid flow of dialogue:

quote:

“That should be good enough for just a nightly ride on Drakkoniss’s motorcycle," the Smasher thought to himself as he locked his laboratory and closed his closet door, "I don’t need any of my nanotech sniper rifles or my bazooka rifles for such a small trip and my gravity generators would only take up space”


Correction mine for ease of perusal.

quote:

“Hmmm…..control of basic elemental energies and unknown energy type, super endurance, superhuman speed, beyond super strength, flight, dense hide shows that the child has a lesser version of my old suit’s defenses, thus making ordinary bullets and weapons useless, but however subject shows possible mastery of using devastating, large scale elemental attacks and creating multiple barriers 10 times stronger than his dense hide the Smasher thought to himself as he approached the Summoner’s body, chance of survival of 59.9999999%, deadly force not necessary unless cornered”.


quote:

“First disembowel the shotgun wielder and begin the fear factor the Smasher thought to himself as he closed his eyes and used his search vision to locate the position of all 9 men in the room, fear factor will slowly set in, causing the enemies to panic and focus fire on the bar counter as I go under the floor boards, silent takedowns will increase fear factor causing the remaining enemies to run out of the bar, giving me easy shots at their legs, chance of survival 99.99999%”


Ask yourself this: Who in real life talks like this? Not even a comical cackling evil overlord, I daresay. Maybe, and just maybe, an incomplete AI program with a malfunction in the speech department. Having a main character do so is the shortest path to breaking down willing suspension of disbelief, even shorter than having a vampire sparkle in the sunlight to a classical vampire fan. And that's not to get into the delicate issue of character sociopathy. The last dialogue alone makes Eragon look like a balanced, normal, compassionate human being, for instance.

These are the three most glaring issues with your actual writing. In regard to the actual story itself, I've counted a few on top of my mind:

1) We have James, Maura and... Hinata. That name has a grand total of zero reason to be there, just as it makes equally as much sense for a couple named Naruto and Sakura to have a kid named... Cunhambebe. Naming doesn't work like that, not even in fiction land.

2) Pacing, pacing, pacing. Throwing one A4 page's worth of writing out and call it a chapter is reserved for first-graders, Gloria Tesch, or a master who really knows what he's doing. The reason? The readers expect that a chapter itself is something in and of itself - it's either one scene or one set of scenes that work well in conjunction with one another. Taking one single scene and split it out into three or four parts works in TV shows and not in writing, because in TV shows there's such a thing as limits in time slots, while there is no such restriction in writing. Let's take your fifth, sixth and seventh chapter - is there any reason to split them up like you did? Absolutely none. It breaks the scene, spoils the pacing and generally invokes the feel of a medium other than writing... for no reason.

These are the most basic problems you need to tackle before your writing would be taken seriously. Rest assured - This is a journey that every writer have to take, bar none.

Of course, whether you would undertake it is your choice. As you said, if your goal is to entertain a group of friends who are used to your nonstandard style, then that is fine. But if you want to get better, to expand your readership beyond this limited group, and perhaps to even one day go pro and earn money and prestige by your writing, you have to work towards it, starting with the points I have outlined.

If I had been too harsh at any point, my apologies. As has been said plenty of times by better authors than myself, writing is a craft dependent on honest, harsh criticism.

I wish you good luck on your endeavors. If there's anything else you wish me to help, feel free to shoot me an PM.
DF  Post #: 27
3/7/2013 19:58:34   
delta blitz
Member

@Argeus: Thank you for your comment, some of the things that you asked I have answered on the first page of this disscussion. This story is based off of two works I already did which only past readers(Like yourself it seems as you mention reading some of my past works) would understand. Also believe it or not this isnt game logic....I made all of this world up with my way of thinking. For the Smasher is based off of my intellect, martial art skills and other actual abilities(though of course I'm not super human) I have. The Summoner on the other hand is my determination, wrath and other things about my actual self. These two characters make up a slightly less realistic version of my personality and mindset.

As for the reason why both the Summoner and the Smasher are where they are at......At the beginning of the story I myself comment on my two personas and how I feel the Smasher was getting *soft* and the Summoner deserved a second chance at life. If you want to boil down the true plot of this story, the two protagonists are simply serving as a small form of entertainment for myself(or the omnipresent being that is watching them if you wish to call me that). I do alot of explaining in this story because the two stories I'm referencing isn't here on the forums for you guys to see, so for newcomers I give small run downs on my characters. As for the one liners....I have a ridiculous sense of humor and I sometimes actually throw a few of them out when I do something I think is cool(NOW is my favorite one liner and word for reasons I'll be happy to explain if asked).

quote:

“Hmmm…..control of basic elemental energies and unknown energy type, super endurance, superhuman speed, beyond super strength, flight, dense hide shows that the child has a lesser version of my old suit’s defenses, thus making ordinary bullets and weapons useless, but however subject shows possible mastery of using devastating, large scale elemental attacks and creating multiple barriers 10 times stronger than his dense hide the Smasher thought to himself as he approached the Summoner’s body, chance of survival of 59.9999999%, deadly force not necessary unless cornered”.


“First disembowel the shotgun wielder and begin the fear factor the Smasher thought to himself as he closed his eyes and used his search vision to locate the position of all 9 men in the room, fear factor will slowly set in, causing the enemies to panic and focus fire on the bar counter as I go under the floor boards, silent takedowns will increase fear factor causing the remaining enemies to run out of the bar, giving me easy shots at their legs, chance of survival 99.99999%”


^I think like this all of the time, I'm a very analytical person and (somewhat) paranoid when it comes to people I meet.(And people I already know) So it isn't narm to me it's realistic as I base it off of myself. Those names/nicknames my characters have, either are names of people I used to know, real life nicknames I had/have or names I have for my future childern(James for my son as my last name would go perfect with it and Hinata for my first daughter as I like the meaning behind the name).

Again I thank you for your comment as I need comments like that in order to get better and I hope you understand it where I'm coming from.(and hopefully you won't think I'm a weirdo)



< Message edited by delta blitz -- 3/7/2013 20:03:27 >
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 28
3/7/2013 21:11:39   
Argeus the Paladin
Member

quote:

think like this all of the time, I'm a very analytical person and (somewhat) paranoid when it comes to people I meet.(And people I already know) So it isn't narm to me it's realistic as I base it off of myself.


Repeat after me: You aren't your character, and vice versa. This is what is known as 'self-inserts' in fiction. It is harmful for a variety of reasons, most importantly because it's extremely easy to go down the Mary Sue road out of a raw desire for wish-fulfillment. A big no-no for anyone wanting to write and be taken seriously. There are self-inserts done well, like Harry Dresden - that other wizard named Harry - but a new writer to the trade is more or less advised to jump out of this mold as soon as possible.

As for the analytical part, I know there are maths savants who cannot think in any terms that does not have number attached to it. But distant and inanimate as numbers are, they tend to make the character thinking in those terms sound extremely sociopathic. Empathy gets thrown out of the window the moment people gets reduced to numbers, fractions and percentage chance. That part, incidentally, was also right before he brutally murders his assailants with glee, in no uncertain terms, while slinging oneliners left and right. That alone makes all the Eragon sociopathy documented on Impish Idea and Anti-Shurtugal look like a child patting his puppy a little too hard. This is Belkar-frigging-Bitterleaf, if not Clockwork Orange level of sociopathy.

You don't want this to be associated with a protagonist you want to be treated as a hero. Which you do,

quote:

For the Smasher is based off of my intellect, martial art skills and other actual abilities(though of course I'm not super human) I have.


because he is you.

quote:

names I have for my future childern(James for my son as my last name would go perfect with it and Hinata for my first daughter as I like the meaning behind the name)


Not going to go into the fact that you want these to be your children's name. Let's try this again: You honestly don't find it odd to have a person of non-Japanese lineage or ever come into contact with that culture (as in, having a year or ten living in Tokyo, Kyoto or Osaka, that sort of thing) to bear a Japanese name? Not even a little bit? Not even the fact that, other social factors notwithstanding, the name Hinata itself is going to clash horribly with an Anglo-Saxon or Romance surname?
DF  Post #: 29
3/8/2013 8:17:56   
delta blitz
Member

You are right my character isn't me, he is only a persona of a piece of myself as all of the characters I create are. I do this for the sake of uniqueness as I dislike the idea of someone thinking I'm copying off of them.

Also you seem to be reading into my story too hard, this is a adventure/action based story created for mine and my readers entertainment....I have no plans of becoming a proffessional writer and no plans of ever gaining money off of this story.

The character you have to empathise with is the Summoner(The magic user) as his *legend* was created from overcoming tragdey with hard work, while the Smasher's (The one who thinks in numbers) *legend* comes from using his natural skill and intellect to better himself.

Niether of my character's are me....in fact both of them together actually don't make me either and I do have a character that actually IS me but I don't write about him for the same reasons that you have stated.

As for my childern's names....as I stated before I love the meaning behind the name Hinata and do not care what my social surroundings think of it. Plus with my last name it works out fine still(Not as good as James but still good).

As for you believeing the Smasher is sociopathic....I'll have you know that geniusness and insanity is on the same wavelength and also action speaks louder than words(or thoughts in this case). The Smasher shows himself to be calm,cool, wise and resourceful both in and out of battle...so I don't really understand how you would think he is crazy....I mean he is paranoid(for good reason due to his past life experiences) but he isnt crazy.
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 30
3/8/2013 9:18:36   
Argeus the Paladin
Member

quote:

As for you believeing the Smasher is sociopathic....I'll have you know that geniusness and insanity is on the same wavelength and also action speaks louder than words(or thoughts in this case). The Smasher shows himself to be calm,cool, wise and resourceful both in and out of battle...so I don't really understand how you would think he is crazy....I mean he is paranoid(for good reason due to his past life experiences) but he isnt crazy.


'Sociopathic' does not necessarily mean 'crazy', my friend. It is lately (actually, since the late 2000s) a buzz-word among the literature sporking circle to refer to a main character who acts out of complete lack of empathy for other people's lives. Basically, 'he who treats everyone but/even his friends and family as dirt", intentionally or otherwise. Most one-liner throwing badasses tend to fit into this mold by sheer virtue of, well, being badass oneliner-slingers. The way Smasher callously murders his enemies as graphically as possible because, well, he could rather than he needed to, makes him appear like someone with a blatant disregard for lives as long as they are his enemies.

That's pretty much it.

quote:

Also you seem to be reading into my story too hard, this is a adventure/action based story created for mine and my readers entertainment....I have no plans of becoming a proffessional writer and no plans of ever gaining money off of this story.


But the basic rules of writing and composing needs to be respected regardless of who you're writing for.

Maybe it's just me, but I have always feel that a writer, as long as he has even one reader, has the sacred duty to make his story as good as possible given his ability and to improve it as he goes on. "Words have the power to both destroy and heal. When words are both true and kind, they can change our world," so says the Buddha. Maybe you aren't a great writer. Maybe you aren't cut out to be the next Tolkien or Lewis or Gogol or Dostoyevsky. Maybe you write just to entertain a few of your friends and family... then you still are a writer with the power of words and have to be responsible for it.

And yes, this includes making a conscious effort to improve your craft, more so when you've received criticism. "But I just write it for fun" does not cut it. Unless, of course, when you said "for fun" you mean "nobody but me and my friends can read it", in which case I believe this story would have found a better home in a notebook or a Word file than on the internet, where you are inviting everyone with a link and a connection to look at it.

If I've been a little too harsh, I apologize. The fact remains that writing is a difficult, demanding yet ultimately honorable and rewarding craft that should be taken seriously, even more so when you're writing for a wide audience as on the internet.

I wish you best of luck in your endeavor.
DF  Post #: 31
3/8/2013 9:24:37   
Ultrapowerpie

Mail Moogle of AdventureQuest


If you don't want to be taken seriously, then why are you asking for criticism? Using "I'm not going to be a professional writer" whenever someone offers you constructive criticism is at best a poor excuse. If you want people outside of your friends to read your work, you need to either step up or just forget about it. Writing for your own pleasure is fine, but if you want others outside your friend circle to enjoy your work, you need to improve.

quote:

the Smasher is based off of my intellect, martial art skills and other actual abilities(though of course I'm not super human) I have. The Summoner on the other hand is my determination, wrath and other things about my actual self. These two characters make up a slightly less realistic version of my personality and mindset.

quote:

You are right my character isn't me, he is only a persona of a piece of myself as all of the characters I create are. I do this for the sake of uniqueness as I dislike the idea of someone thinking I'm copying off of them.

quote:

Niether of my character's are me...


I'd like to quote Jung's theory of Personas here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persona_(psychology)

Your personas ARE you, they're a part of you. And contrary to what Argeus says (and this is where I disagree with him), I support writing characters based on oneself. After all, writers write what they know, and writers that just start out may have a limited set of personalities/characters to draw from, and sometimes the self can be a place of passion when one throws themselves into it. I don't advocate for the story being all you of course, and indeed when you enter the story the likelihood of a "Mary Sue" occurring increases. You have to have the discipline to treat yourself with some detachment though, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. In this situation I do agree with Argeus in that you should stay away from yourself.

And yes, it's you. It's a part of you, it IS you. Just because you take a slice of apple pie from the whole does not make the slice something different from the whole apple pie.


As for the whole "Mary Sue" fallacy, yes it makes for boring writing and puts in fanfiction territory. Why did I use it in quotes? Because not even TVTropes has an established definition of the fallacy thanks to the proliferation of the term. Also the term is bloody subjective and all the "tests" for it are also subjective. It's not that I don't' agree with the "ultimate non-flawed hero" being a boring read, I just think people should spell out what is wrong and not resort to a now hackneyed expression that can mean many things.


Ok, personal opinions about that term over with!


quote:

As for you believeing the Smasher is sociopathic....I'll have you know that geniusness and insanity is on the same wavelength and also action speaks louder than words(or thoughts in this case). The Smasher shows himself to be calm,cool, wise and resourceful both in and out of battle...so I don't really understand how you would think he is crazy....I mean he is paranoid(for good reason due to his past life experiences) but he isnt crazy.


There is at times a fine line between the two, but what you're doing isn't close to the "borderline genius/insanity" route. Also, paranoia is by definition a mental debilitation and as such can be classified as crazy.


While it's true that there is a way to "read too deep" into a story, that occurs when people attempt to find some sort of hidden meaning. Argeus is merely giving you an extremely thorough review, which is extremely gratifying as not too many critics will take the time to do so, and I assure you Argeus is very thorough (he did mine once... though he never finished. Shame on him :P)

Anyways, my two cents. Have fun with your story.



< Message edited by Ultrapowerpie -- 3/8/2013 9:42:30 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 32
3/8/2013 9:42:50   
Arthur
How We Roll Winner
Dec14


Hey delta,

I wouldn't say much here other than commenting on your "reading too deep".

I would like to quote Madam Vox here,
quote:



ORIGINAL: Eukara Vox


To critique someone means you look at their story and read it, and read it, and read it again until you are familiar with, and understand, the story. When I critique a story, I read it at least 3 times before I even begin to analyse and critique, which is why I take forever to do one. Then, you concentrate on the content of the story and give feedback on how the characterisation worked, how the plot progressed, how the details either helped or hurt the storytelling, etc.


So you see, it is a critiquer's job to read deep and hard till they can judge whether that piece has flaws or not. And he does it regardless of what the author thinks of the critique or how he writes OR how willing he is to alter his work for the best(or in some cases, worse[as in when I am critiquing])

So I believe a Critiquer is doing an author a favor by selecting his story and reading it again and again.

I bid you all the best for your future works.^^

And you should be happy that your thread is drawing attention.

;-)
DF MQ AQW  Post #: 33
3/8/2013 11:14:14   
delta blitz
Member

Thank you for your comments this makes me feel like I'm not the only one who cares :3

I welcome critsim because it helps me write better but I'm just trying to entertain myself with something other than what I normally do. I'm no writer or author I'm just a dude trying to keep his promise to a few friends that I can only find on these forums(though it seems like they never come on anymore). This isn't an excuse, I'm simply giving my reasoning on why I'm doing what I'm doing.

It's not like I'm taking advice and throwing out the window if you think that, I take every comment I get as a blessing as you guys truthfully don't have to tell me anything and let me wallow in my obliviousness....but you don't and I respect and admire that.

quote:

You are right my character isn't me, he is only a persona of a piece of myself as all of the characters I create are.


Also I was saying the personas aren't me because they themselves are just pieces and not fully me. I'm not denouncing the fact they are apart of me I was merely explaining that I wasn't trying to put myself in place where I don't belong(That's why I don't write about the character that is actually myself).

When I say *Reading too deep* I mean don't take this story too seriously because it shouldn't be(It truthfully is made just for me to entertain).

The Smasher is an ex super soldier....killing is instinctive for him. He lives and breathe war and thus it is understandable that he kills without regret because for him it is "kill or be killed" in his mind. He has been betrayed by his creator and watched his only "brother" die....you have to throw the guy some slack that he is as trusting as he is(I've seen people turn completely introverted for lesser things).

With all of this being said I welcome more of you guys insight as I am a man of my word and i will finish this story(Sooner or later).



< Message edited by delta blitz -- 3/8/2013 11:41:17 >
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 34
9/30/2013 17:47:42   
delta blitz
Member

I did :D I finally did it T.T

I kept my promise to my old friends

Drakkoniss, Jae, Zafara, Clown, Grey, Ancient, Overcast, Warpro, everyone where ever you are.......our last story is finally done. I know it may be too late now but I am a man of my word >:D.

If one of you ever stumble on to this I want to you know I will never forget you guys.

God bless you all and may a smile never leave you guys' face


< Message edited by delta blitz -- 9/30/2013 17:49:42 >
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 35
1/12/2014 18:09:04   
delta blitz
Member

If anyone is still watching.....would you mind reading over this story and telling me what you think?

I don't write stories anymore but it would be good to get some feedback on my last piece of work....and by feedback I mean about story content as I'm not restructuring this relic of the past a third time.

< Message edited by delta blitz -- 5/13/2014 9:42:13 >
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 36
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