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RE: Fixed level pairings for Juggernaut

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1/27/2013 13:47:13   
Blitzex/Sr. Zeph
Banned
quote:

I can easily defeat juggers when paired with another 30 partner providing they have full gear.

And thats why it would destroy the battle mode
Epic  Post #: 26
1/27/2013 14:04:00   
Mother1
Member

@ sr. zeph

Are you saying that having players that are actually prepared with full gear to fight a jug with only a level 5 gap between them would destroy this mode? No the only thing that would destroy this battle mode truly is if they made a jug button for the players so they could choose when they fight jugs.

The players are already being forced to fight an opponent they don't want to fight whenever they choose 2 vs 2 why must it be at the point where they can't possibly win if their build isn't equipped to fight a jug, or don't have extreme luck? How is this any different than a fully powered varium player using a non varium without enhancements as a punching bag?
Epic  Post #: 27
1/27/2013 22:38:01   
theholyfighter
Member

quote:


I have a lvl 30 alternate mage I can easily defeat juggers when paired with another 30 partner providing they have full gear


Easily defeat. That's a guarantee loss for the jugg.

@final hour
Lol you see that you're a Variumed TLM, which is the best class for jugg. But with your 110 enhancements ofc it's easy. For those who have a percentage higher than 90 I bet you have 110 or more enhancements. Can you do that again in Omega? NOPE.
AQW Epic  Post #: 28
1/27/2013 23:05:19   
Mother1
Member

@ theholyfighter

My friend furas who is a non varium 35 who only has 8 enhancements out of a possible 28 on all of his current gear won the juggernaut award with an 82.7 % win rate and he as I said is a non varium. So that excuse doesn't hold water since my friend as well as many other non varium jugs who are barely or not even enhanced are getting high win rates.
Epic  Post #: 29
1/27/2013 23:14:38   
theholyfighter
Member

I guess he's a TLM. And yes, after checking he IS. And I bet he has some luck afterall. Proof may be needed as well.
AQW Epic  Post #: 30
1/27/2013 23:21:30   
CN2025
Member

im tm and i barely win :o tlm kinda only good class to jugg
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 31
1/27/2013 23:35:38   
Mother1
Member

@ CN2025

TM is the worst class to use for Jugging However all the other classes surprisingly are decent jugging classes.

@ theholyfighter

If I knew I was going to make this topic I would have made a screen shot for the proof of the win record. However as for the enhancements I asked him viva PM recently and that was what he told me. As for the proof that he won Juggernaut, well you saw it in his character page.

My point is that even with non variums able to get high win rates with little or no enhancements proves that the balance of power with this battle mode is off. Something needs to be done because a level 35 fully varium jug or even a partly enhanced non varium jug facing two 26's who 9 times out of ten are non varium and not enhanced is as the final hour said forcing sheep to walk to the slaughter house.

Epic  Post #: 32
1/28/2013 0:12:39   
theholyfighter
Member

This is what I would do if I were one of those "sheeps":
1. Farm NPCs for Credits
2. Upgrade everything I have
3. Kill the Jugg who has no enhancements everytime with my lvl 30 partner who is fully upgraded too
AQW Epic  Post #: 33
1/28/2013 0:27:01   
Mother1
Member

@ Theholyfighter

You are an experienced player who knows how to deal with jugs. The sheep i am talking about are mostly players who have no clue what a jug is. Plus as it is now you can't farm NPC without leveling up so your gear will become outdated.

The only time you can truly farm as it is now is when you have cap level gear since you won't level up past it make it out of date. Plus the way enhancements are now unless you are a varium player you will never be able to enhance fast enough.

Maybe in omega since NPC won't case you to level up, but as it is now no?
Epic  Post #: 34
1/28/2013 3:01:30   
theholyfighter
Member

Actually if you check the wiki carefully, you can see that there are NPCs for nearly EVERY LEVEL. In Omega, when NPCs are unlimited and gives credits, you can as well get credits enough for upgraded gear THEN go for normal battle modes that DOES give EXP.
AQW Epic  Post #: 35
1/28/2013 3:25:25   
Mother1
Member

@ theholyfighter

this much I know, however from what the design notes are saying NPC won't be as easy as they are now since they will be getting a buff with aux's as well as increase AI while we will be getting a nerf.

But you know what? Until omega does come it makes no sense to talk about this since while we know some of what is coming we don't know all of what is coming. Enhancements won't be here in omega but cores and we won't know what cores will do what until we see them. Let's just save this topic until then.
Epic  Post #: 36
1/28/2013 3:41:18   
theholyfighter
Member

quote:


this much I know, however from what the design notes are saying NPC won't be as easy as they are now since they will be getting a buff with aux's as well as increase AI while we will be getting a nerf.


Not a nerf actually, many have fought as nonvars for a long time and lived with it. However, the buff to NPCs is true.


quote:


But you know what? Until omega does come it makes no sense to talk about this since while we know some of what is coming we don't know all of what is coming. Enhancements won't be here in omega but cores and we won't know what cores will do what until we see them. Let's just save this topic until then.


Of course...

< Message edited by theholyfighter -- 1/28/2013 3:42:42 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 37
1/28/2013 6:25:21   
Blitzex/Sr. Zeph
Banned


 @ Mother

quote:

The players are already being forced to fight an opponent they don't want to fight whenever they choose 2 vs 2 why must it be at the point where they can't possibly win if their build isn't equipped to fight a jug, or don't have extreme luck? How is this any different than a fully powered varium player using a non varium without enhancements as a punching bag?

They can win, have you done much juggs?
Then you have probably also seen they make the most stupid moves.

I already explained in a post a while back ago that it is not the juggs, but the stupidity of the opponents.
Ever seen a merc who actually saves his bunker for a rage? NO
Ever seen someone with H or E boosters? NO
Ever seen someone using its IA right? NO

We aint the problem!
Their stupidity and lack of strategy is!




< Message edited by Blitzex/Sr. Zeph -- 1/28/2013 6:28:22 >
Epic  Post #: 38
1/28/2013 10:56:25   
FishNoobCrack
Member

^^
This.
I have a level 28 mage, and most of my jugging partners would usually have only a primary, or those weapons that you get at level 10.
Post #: 39
1/28/2013 12:15:42   
Blitzex/Sr. Zeph
Banned


 ^ So its their own stupidity.
If they invested their creedits better then they would have a gun, aux, robot and armor.
Epic  Post #: 40
1/28/2013 12:23:14   
Remorse
Member

^ Yes it is their own stupidity, but that shouldn't mean everyone else has to suffer.
when it is the case and are paired with one, it's almost impossible to win against a jugg,

Where as if you were paired with a ill equipped player in a normal 2v2 you would still stand a fighting chance.


Also when I said I can kill Juggs as a 30 paired with another 30,
What I meant is we actually provide a challenge for the jugg in which they dont always win even without luck involved.

NOT, it will be unfair for the jugg...

Juggs should only get the same win ratios as a 2v2 ratio.

And mother1's idea may help with this.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 1/28/2013 12:24:50 >
Epic  Post #: 41
1/28/2013 12:48:41   
Blitzex/Sr. Zeph
Banned
quote:

but that shouldn't mean everyone else has to suffer.
when it is the case and are paired with one, it's almost impossible to win against a jugg,

So because they get paired with bad allys the juggs should be punished?
Sounds reasonable to me :\

First its this:
quote:

I can easily defeat juggers when paired with another 30 partner providing they have full gear.

and now its:
quote:

What I meant is we actually provide a challenge for the jugg in which they dont always win even without luck involved.

Big difference if you ask me, what changed your mind?


quote:

Juggs should only get the same win ratios as a 2v2 ratio

Why exactly?

Epic  Post #: 42
1/28/2013 15:59:33   
EpicIsEpic
Member

Supported since the game is FUN and only if 2 lvls 30 vs a level 35 and get lucky then they have a chance but if 2 levels 26 battle you since they are lov level they wont have as much credits and will loose 99% even if they get insane amount of luck as in 1 v 1 you have a bit more than 50% of winning if you are level 35. It is true jugg battles have an insane win ratio HOWEVER when enchantments are going to get remooved and helth nerfed then it will be fine just perfect. What i am trying to say is wait until omega.
Post #: 43
1/29/2013 1:16:27   
theholyfighter
Member

What we know from now about Omega, there will be no enhancements. So it'd be 2 lvl 30s VS lvl 35. For those who said that they can easily beat 2 lvl 30s, then you should think about this: Will you still be able to do so with no enhancements at all?
And btw, partly of what Mr. Zeph is right.

The jugg's opponents(I'm going to just type JOs) lose most of the time because of their own "stupidity", (I'd say lack of experience). However, isn't learning and gaining experience a part of Epicduel playing? If it isn't, they it's playing without brains, since everything is planned for them and they wouldn't know "Why do I only have a primary weapon and I'm already lvl 28/29/30?". I think that they have to learn to manage their credits and all those ways this game works. From a comment earlier, a player that really gained experience and gaming tips would have known to "Farm NPCs for credits, THEN go for real battles if he/she does not want too many loses". And btw, the current system isn't forcing those JOs to lose; there are still ways to cope with them. And you know what? why do those JOs with just a primary would want to go for team battles? I'll tell you why. The reason is that they want to find a powerful partner(which in most cases is a fully enhanced varium player) and they're just being "parasites". Overall, there are actually ways to cope with Juggernauts. Therefore, I do not support this arguement. I propose nothing about juggernaut changes UNTIL Omega is actually releases and we, the players can actaully test out how it works.

< Message edited by theholyfighter -- 1/29/2013 1:18:32 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 44
1/29/2013 4:59:20   
Remorse
Member

@ Sir zpeh,

What I meant is yes I can easily beat Juggs, But at the same time any player can kill another player easily providing they have the same gear and lvl because it just depends on the weaknesses of your build.


Problem with jugg is that their is no possible way for jugg to be easy for the opponents AT ALL, the only way they have a chances with luck when they are paired with a lower level partner.

This SHOULD NOT BE THE CASE, juggs have weaknesses and that should mean it should be easy for some combos of opponents to beat them.
NOT NEVER, when paired with lower levels.



The smart juggs have a godly ratios, and unfortunately the less smart juggs still have amazing ratios, Im a lot smarter then some of the juggs and In a lot of the cases the lower levels would be smarter, WHY SHOULD A BROKEN BATTLE MODE mean that this is not a factor as the jugg destroys them.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 1/29/2013 5:00:35 >
Epic  Post #: 45
1/29/2013 5:09:20   
theholyfighter
Member

quote:


Problem with jugg is that their is no possible way for jugg to be easy for the opponents AT ALL, the only way they have a chances with luck when they are paired with a lower level partner.

That may be true most of the time, but here's I've met b4:

Lvl 30 Str Bounty
Lvl 30 5-focus Mage

They're both non-vars, but both of them have full gear. Although I lost fair and square, I have nothing I can do to win that...


And by the way, whereas in Omega, if they are smart enough they could have simply farmed NPCs for credits and be fully upgraded. Then it's their time they could kill the Lvl 35 jugg without enhancements with ease. And yes, the requirements for this to happen is for the JOs to actually know what to do to win, and that is a part of playing ED-playing as you increase your experience and gaming knowledge.

AQW Epic  Post #: 46
1/29/2013 5:27:43   
Mother1
Member

I am reading this topic more and more and it seems people are afraid of this idea because they could possibly get two level 30's that have full gear because they actually stand a chance of winning. I have to ask are you so afraid that your opponents having a fair shot at winning that you want to bully lower levels who 9 times out of ten don't have full gear on or are non varium's instead of actually having a fight that is fair on both sides?

< Message edited by Mother1 -- 1/29/2013 5:29:31 >
Epic  Post #: 47
1/29/2013 5:37:25   
theholyfighter
Member

quote:


I have to ask are you so afraid that your opponents having a fair shot at winning that you want to bully lower levels who 9 times out of ten don't have full gear on or are non varium's instead of actually having a fight that is fair on both sides?

1. Not a fair shot.
2. Hell? Not bullying.
3. 9/10? How'd you calculate that?
4. Then why can some non vars gain FULL GEAR? Why can't those with primaries have full gear? There are ways to solve a mistake MADE BY YOURSELf(for example, slling and buying things without actually making a purchase plan), but those with a primary chose one of the worst ways to do it: Jump into a team fight and hope their partner is good enough and has 115 enhancements, being a "parasite".



quote:


level 30's that have full gear because they actually stand a chance of winning.


What's the "chance" you mean? 100%? 99%?
The Juggernaut ratio what I think is fair enough is 2:1, which is 66%. But you can see that 2 Full-geared lvl 30s are facing a Lvl 35 without enhancements. And, it has already been tested that 2 full-armed non vars(which means fully upgraded in Omega) can easily kill a Juggernaut with ease. And why can they be full armed, and some others can only wield a primary weapon? That's the point. Those with just a primary are not actually learning from playing, or gaining experience. Those that are fully armed(lvl 30s) then have a 99.9% win chance(the 0.1% is when the jugg can block and deflect every single move the JOs do). It can be predicted that I'd be unfair for a juggernaut tho, but however, the actual way the Juggernaut mode turns out can not be told 100% sure, simply because Omega hasn't been released yet. So actually I see some suggestions being made too early to be influential for Epicduel Omega.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edit:
quote:


We already face lvl 30s in 1vs1, and you want us to fight 2 at the same time?

Good point.

< Message edited by theholyfighter -- 1/29/2013 6:31:20 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 48
1/29/2013 6:08:35   
Blitzex/Sr. Zeph
Banned


 @ Remorse Less
quote:

This SHOULD NOT BE THE CASE, juggs have weaknesses and that should mean it should be easy for some combos of opponents to beat them.
NOT NEVER, when paired with lower levels.

The thing is, there are never combos.
They just brainlessly attack with all they got. They dont actually combo their attacks.

quote:

Problem with jugg is that their is no possible way for jugg to be easy for the opponents AT ALL

Should a player ever be easy for another player?
NO, thats the game, you shouldnt be easy for the opponent.

@Mother1
quote:

I have to ask are you so afraid that your opponents having a fair shot at winning that you want to bully lower levels who 9 times out of ten don't have full gear on or are non varium's instead of actually having a fight that is fair on both sides?

First of all, they always have a fair shot of winning.
Second, whos fault is it that they dont have full gear? Not the juggs fault.
It is there own fault they dont have full gear, so you want to punish the juggs for it? Just because you have a partner with no gear?
Think straight remorse and mother.
The problem here isnt the juggs and you know it as good as i do.

And, actually youre idea would be even more unfair to the juggs then that it would be fair for the opponents.
We already face lvl 30s in 1vs1, and you want us to fight 2 at the same time? Think straight girls.
Epic  Post #: 49
1/29/2013 6:35:17   
Mother1
Member

@ sr zeph

that is only for cap level players. anyone lower level their cap level accordingly. You are acting like I am suggesting to make all opponents for all jugs level 30.
Epic  Post #: 50
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