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Rebalancing of blocks

 
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1/29/2013 16:00:50   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


Well, since block chance honestly doesn't scale that high and a strength build only needs to use a few blockable moves to kill even the tankiest players, I feel there should be a change to block chance:

1. Lower the base chance to 4% instead of 8%
2. Reduce the scaling to 1.5 or 2 dex points per %
3. Make blocks reduce a fraction of damage (For example, 2/3 or 3/4) rather than all damage because shadow arts, smoke, and dex builds can seriously break strength mercs, atom smash, assimilate, static charge, etc...

By doing this, strength builds will be blocked more based off of their dex rather than just the pretty slow scaling we have right now (Even when I have 100-110 dex, my block chance is still fairly weak against a 65-ish dex strength build). Also, the abnormally high base block chance was allowing lots of lower level players to get numerous lucky wins, so to compensate I'd like to have the base block chance lowered. This will make block chances more relevant with actual dexterity rather than a large fraction of it just being off of the original base chance. Also, getting a single lucky block can easily make a highly advantageous side instantly doomed in most 2v2 fights, particularly when blocking energy removal skills or trump skills like zerker and bludgeon.
Epic  Post #: 1
1/29/2013 22:58:37   
Remorse
Member

Supported,

I especially like the more scaling with dex, and the fact it doesn't block all damage.
Epic  Post #: 2
1/30/2013 0:50:06   
NDB
Member

quote:

1. Lower the base chance to 4% instead of 8%
2. Reduce the scaling to 1.5 or 2 dex points per %
3. Make blocks reduce a fraction of damage (For example, 2/3 or 3/4) rather than all damage because shadow arts, smoke, and dex builds can seriously break strength mercs, atom smash, assimilate, static charge, etc...


1. Yup, this is definitely needed, as with base Deflection chance which is currently 10%. Concept understood and supported.

2. Nah. Deflection is less effective than Block is and it still scales with 3 Tech Points/%. I think that we need to minimize Block chance overall, and take down Strength Builds by other means (and wouldn't this be extremely unfair for any non-Strength abusing build that had lower Dexterity, and also when fighting lower level players who almost most definitely will have lower Dexterity). No matter what you do, it's luck, so yo still haven't actually gotten to the heart of the problem. Furthermore, reasoning that Strength builds have less Dexterity than most other builds is not a valid excuse (and stereotype), as it is the player's choice to have that much Dexterity. What I'm saying is that players are extremely good at adapting to knew Balance expectations. For example, when a Support requirement was added to Massacre and Smoke Screen, players did not hesitate to do so, as it is clearly a small price to pay. I do, however, understand that by lowering the base chance, you are lowering the overall chance to Block for all players (and this is another reason for this second proposal?). But, because I cannot come up with anything better, I cannot say tat I do not support either.

3. As Block will never reduce more than 50% of the Damage because it would become less effective than Deflection, I think that this is a somewhat strange idea. However, in the case that this is taken seriously, I think that my suggestion from a previous Balance Thread would also be more balanced. Below is a quote taken from myself.

quote:

What if support increased the amount of defenses ignored with rage instead of increasing the speed in which you obtained Rage?

Normally, when you get blocked or deflected, you gain extra Rage points equal to the amount of damage blocked or deflected, as if the defender had enough defenses to actually negate so much damage.

My suggestion is to let it so there is the same affect on Rage. Not only will it make up for a blocked or deflected Rage (not really, but it will help), even normally, when you aren't blocked or deflected, I think you should still receive Rage points.

Example: You Rage Strike for 30 damage, but is blocked. Next turn, you Rage meter is up 30 points +the amount of damage still negated (like in the example below) instead of being reset at 0.
OR you are fighting a player with 40 defense. You Rage Strike (Physical Damage) for 20 damage+18 from the defense ignored=38 damage. Next turn, your Rage Meter is up 22 points, because the defender still negated 22 damage.


It was mostly supported, but for the players who did not, it was because they thought that players might recover Rage too fast if one was to block an attack such as Berzerker (I argued back that blocking such an attack would probably mean that you have won already...).

As for your suggestion, like the second one, I cannot say I do not support it.

Also, as an attempt to stay on topic an not hijack your post, I posted the quote from myself below because that would further balance the other one above (even if Strength Builds recovered Rage quickly, it would be less affective). I only posted it to help explain my commentary,

quote:

So, here's how it works. If both players have equal support, the base Rage would be 45% ignore, like how it is currently.
With every support advantage of 5, your ability to ignore increases by +1% and the opposing players would decrease by 1%. The cap will be 30%-60% (in order to reach the cap, you need to have a 75 support advantage over the opponent)
That way, strength users, with less support, ignore less, and as a result are not so strong, while support players ignore more.

Example:
Player A: 40 support, 30 defenses.
Player B: 70 support, 30 defenses.

When Player A uses Rage on Player B, he/she will only ignore 39%=11.7 or 12 more damage.
When Player B does, he/he will ignore 51%= 15.3 or 16 (ED round-ups) or 16 more damage.


Epic  Post #: 3
1/30/2013 2:10:56   
Drianx
Member

Yeah, I agree with making blocks more dependant on dex and less dependant on luck.
AQW Epic  Post #: 4
1/30/2013 4:50:09   
theholyfighter
Member

Yea, but blocks should reduce 80%/90% of the damage tho, and perhaps this: the damage left over due to BLOCK is NOT affected by the base amount of damage. So it means if player A hits player B dealing a damage of 3. If it gets blocked it's 3*0.2/3*0.8 which rounds up to 1. That means player A hits 1 instead of 3. I wanted to add this because what if player B has super-high dex and has 3 health left? And player A has all unblockables in cooldown? Then the only way for player B to turn the tide of the duel is to BLOCK the next strike by player A. With the older version, it's BLOCK or lose. However, with your version, player B can still live whether or not it's a BLOCK. Just an idea tho.......Overall, I like this idea, just the "fraction of the damage taken away" needs to be discussed some more.
AQW Epic  Post #: 5
1/30/2013 4:56:57   
Mother1
Member

Interesting ideas however as for the last one I don't like it in the least. This would mean any class who doesn't have an attack that is blockable and does more then two hits would be stuck under the old system while every other class would get some damage on these blockable moves just because they strike more then once.

At least with this current system the damage is fair to all class where as this one would be unfair to the mage class since the merc classes and the hunter classes all have moves that can strike you more then once while the mage class doesn't.
Epic  Post #: 6
1/30/2013 8:33:00   
King FrostLich
Member

quote:

1. Lower the base chance to 4% instead of 8%


Why would you want a lower constant for block? This is particularly useful for average and tank builds alike.
quote:

2. Reduce the scaling to 1.5 or 2 dex points per %


I think this is fair and they should increase the maximum chance to block back to 60%(we currently have a max of 35% chance)
quote:

3. Make blocks reduce a fraction of damage (For example, 2/3 or 3/4) rather than all damage because shadow arts, smoke, and dex builds can seriously break strength mercs, atom smash, assimilate, static charge, etc...


I don't think this is good. Blocks are meant to negate and prevent strength builds from hitting too hard when striking continuously especially if it lands a critical hit on you. Sure, it makes players gain rage fast if they got blocked but dealing damage when you block player's attacks sounds a bit overpowered. Even "blocking" 80% of the incoming damage still hits hard if the player is a glass cannon.
Epic  Post #: 7
1/30/2013 9:03:35   
theholyfighter
Member

Gonna ask a newbie-like question: What's a "glass cannon"?
AQW Epic  Post #: 8
1/30/2013 9:14:04   
King FrostLich
Member

A player who is capable of doing strong damage but has very low defenses.
Epic  Post #: 9
1/30/2013 9:25:07   
theholyfighter
Member

Oh you mean those players who have 20 of str/def/resis/sup?

< Message edited by theholyfighter -- 1/30/2013 9:36:43 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 10
1/30/2013 9:33:24   
King FrostLich
Member

No, an obvious example is a strength blood mage. Deals very high damage especially those with Dage's Boomstick yet get hit hard from other players who don't have that much strength or offensive power.
Epic  Post #: 11
1/30/2013 15:26:44   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


@King FrostLich: Since the scaling would be increased from my suggestion, the base block chance would need to be lowered so that we wouldn't reach astronomically unfair block chances, particularly if blocks negate 100% damage. If you reduce the base chance and increase the scaling, it will make dex more truly reflect one's block chance (Dex builds with average 20-ish% block chance excluding shadow arts has almost half of its total block chance just from the base, kinda messed up if you ask me). Also, reducing the base chance would also reduce multiple unfair wins from random blocks by opponents, particularly when they have monstrous amounts of tech and melees are the safest way to rage attacks.
Epic  Post #: 12
1/30/2013 21:32:24   
King FrostLich
Member

No, as a non varium back in those days, this has saved me from players who have recklessly used strike and rage berzerker. At that time when dexterity scaled every 3 points, I noticed getting 30 dexterity points higher than your opponent gave me a high advantage of blocking and that was me as a Tech Mage long ago. If you do the calculation from the past from my given example

[81-51] / 2 = 15
15% + 10 = 25% chance to block


Honestly, 25% is already a high chance while what you're suggesting a 4% base chance which would decrease this to 19% I believe block should be of higher chance than deflection. And of course, many players don't even use math properly that's why striking or using power skills(double strike, bludgeon etc.) weren't carefully used. The reason why everyone complains block was overpowered and unfair was because some people think that using smokescreen immediately think "Yup, this guy won't block" only to find out they get lucky in doing so. Reducing the base chance anyway isn't necessary, why? Take a look, we have skill cores that will change the course of the battle, a meteor skill core(found in Titan's twitter pic) and 5 focus builds everywhere. If I were to think of it literally that we do not have robots or skill cores in this game(let's also exclude power skills) we have one blockable attack which is strike and 2 unblockables namely your sidearm and auxiliary. Since you only have 1 blockable and that it negates 100% damage, then use it smartly or if it's the only way to hit higher than your unblockable.
Epic  Post #: 13
1/30/2013 22:38:29   
theholyfighter
Member

I assume that "those days" meant Beta. If it were Beta, then I can tell you that at THAT time, bounties who smoke have a lowe block rate than now.
AQW Epic  Post #: 14
1/31/2013 3:40:02   
King FrostLich
Member

Actually, it's also from Gamma until block rate was nerfed which it is today. At that time as well, Gamma Bot was completely blockable so whenever I face players who have 5 focus Gamma Bot, I tend to block it all the time for some strange reason.
Epic  Post #: 15
1/31/2013 15:30:47   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


Nonetheless, I feel that base chances of blocks and most definitely deflections should be reduced, and the scaling changed. Only problem is, if scaling for dex was made even more sharp, smoke would be pretty overpowered against many strength builds.
Epic  Post #: 16
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