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4/6/2013 23:56:42   
Goony
Constructive!


 Hey, just wanted to discuss the passives and see if I can generate some ides about them.

Firstly to outline the issues, I'll discuss the original passives - hybrid armor, reroute and bloodlust

The discrepancy here relates to defence ignore on criticals and rage. When a player with bloodlust gets a critical 45% of hybrid armor is ignored and on rage 50% of hybrid armor is ignored. This causes the bloodlust passive to become more effective and conversely reroute generates more return due to the extra damage done. While hybrid is only at max 6 def or 5 res the ignore is minimal (approx 3 ignored), but when the other passives get to values like +12-13 HP or EP return the difference is very noticeable. That's the equivalent of 2-3 turns of hybrid working normally and in most cases it is the difference between a win or loss!

The newer passives such as mineral armor, plasma armor, adrenaline and shadow arts also have issues. Since Omega and the ability to train your armor stats, the passive armors have become more effective for CH and TIM. Shadow arts has always been effective since a max SA is the equivalent of 20 dexterity and in the case of stun chance 70 support. Adrenaline has huge limitations, while it works every turn it only contributes to an attack that may be every used every 3-5 turns. Rage can also be completely negated in the case of a block and that rage build is rendered useless as it disappears after a block or deflection!

Personally, I'd like to see all passives changed in the skill trees and make them into active skills. Leaving the cores to be the passive skills.

Case in point is that Shadow Arts is stacking with the Ninja core to create a min of a 15% block chance with max Shadow Arts.

If the passives in skill trees were to become actives, how would they work?

Basically, I'd see a skill like shadow arts being activated with a strike and have an energy cost per level comparable with atom smash. The effect would last 3-4 turns and the skill could be used again.

For hybrid, the activation could be a strike but the cost could be negative strength or support (something that doesn't cost energy) based on a the level the skill. So at max the armor would reduce strength or support by 10.

Just ideas, but I think there are huge balance issues between passives at the moment. I also think that debuffs are terribly balanced, but that's my opinion and another balance topic :p
Epic  Post #: 1
4/7/2013 0:13:14   
Midnightsoul
Member

I think buffs (reflex, technician, field, blood) need to be buffed. They are easily overpowered by debuffs nowadays.

Passives are fine. They exist for a reason. I think the main problem left is the active moves on each class.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 2
4/7/2013 0:14:36   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 Interesting points, especially about crits/rage with Bloodlust and the Passive armors. I like the ideas of passives since it gives a different level of playing since it's a skill you always have active rather than having to decide when to use it. The problem is though that they need nerfed or reworked. Some of them are simply too useful and are a 100% must have in a build to do good while others are just a benefit(and those happen to be considered UPd and needing buffed). Changing them to an active would require them to get buffed though since a 12/6+5 armor isn't all that great.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 3
4/7/2013 0:19:29   
goldslayer1
Member

my suggestion to passive armor is to make them % based.
and the % is based on the player's lvl.

this also balances out passive armor at low lvls.

if passive armor at max gave you 30% of your lvl # (the % is just a sample number. could be higher or lower)
at lvl 35 thats 10.5 def/res (rounded up)
at lvl 20 thats 6 def/res
at lvl 10 thats 3 def/res
this keeps passive skills increasing as lvl gets higher.

as for reroute, if you go second with a reroute class, you get nothing.
same for going first with a bloodlust class.

AQW Epic  Post #: 4
4/7/2013 0:27:00   
Goony
Constructive!


 I agree that they are must have skills and that's what needs to be changed, they are cheap in that the investment costs nothing but points in the skill trees and this leads me to think that buffing them if they were to become actives is also just going to make them must have. I'd like to move away from that standard and towards something that means all skill trees skills are useful but not must have! Thus creating more diversity.

Another example in moving towards active skills in skill trees would be that bloodlust is activated by strike, costs no energy and then gives HP return for 3 turns when the attacker does damage to the opponent. It becomes more strategic and the use on activation would mean that the damage may be blocked, but the effect wouldn't. Reroute would become like an anti frostbite in that using a strike to activate would mean that for the next 3 turns the return from being damaged would add EP or perhaps just be a static return based on level. Like a DOT potion...

Still just tossing around ideas and hopefully we can move away from all these must have passive skills in respect to the classes!

@Goldy, that suggestion about armor could also work but not passive the player would need to activate the armor. Making it improve with level would also help the lower level battles (10-20) where mercenaries can dominate to some extent due to hybrid armor...

But we need to move away from passive skills in the skill tree now that we have passive cores, the ability to stack these will become worse as more cores become available and it is already creating some massive inequities in the skill trees! For example imagine if there was a passive armor core that gave defence or resistance. Hunters have had the advantage since Omega in that the Ninja core stacks with shadow arts, moving forward skill tree passives will become a greater. Time to change is now before the core inventories become bigger in my opinion.

< Message edited by Goony -- 4/7/2013 0:45:35 >
Epic  Post #: 5
4/7/2013 2:28:58   
goldslayer1
Member

@goony
i personally never liked the cores to begin with.

right off the bat when they introduced sneak peaks relating cores, it was mostly luck related.
AQW Epic  Post #: 6
4/7/2013 7:36:42   
Mecha Mario
Mechanized Plumber


 Personally would love to see all the passive skills turn into active skills as well. Would create a bit more diversity since they wouldn't be must have anymore. Would also have to actually plan out your skills a bit more compare to what you do now.
DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 7
4/7/2013 13:31:20   
Sipping Cider
Member

This is like cake for the brain that still tastes good but has not bad side affects and actually is healthy for you!

Passives need to change! Seriously, is there any build that does not incorporate passives?? How can 5 less damage every turn for no energy be equal to something like defense matrix that only forces your opponent to switch to energy damage for 3 turns while you give up both a turn and energy??? Blood lust is one million gajillion times better than Frenzy considering blood lust is free, always active, and works with all damage rather than just striking with club only. Reroute beats static charge one-hundred to one, considering one is always active and is free while the other takes a turn and could be blocked. Bottom line, passives are always active while other abilities are only active temporarily, meaning they can be countered and responded to accordingly. Who wants to play a game that has an option ability that needs to be gained in order to compete?? Wheres the creativity??? OK, now that im done ranting about my position for changing passives (which is SUPPORT), heres some ideas:

Reroute

Energy Cost: 10+1 per level
Effect lasts for: 4 rounds
Cool-down: 4 rounds
Animation: Character does some voodoo moves and then turns slightly transparent
Level------Effect
1----------Converts 10% of damage to energy gain
2----------Converts 11% of damage to energy gain
3----------Converts 12% of damage to energy gain
4----------Converts 13% of damage to energy gain
5----------Converts 14% of damage to energy gain
6----------Converts 15% of damage to energy gain
7----------Converts 16% of damage to energy gain
8----------Converts 17% of damage to energy gain
9----------Converts 18% of damage to energy gain
10---------Converts 19% of damage to energy gain

*Note: Not only do you gain energy based on incoming damage, any incoming damage is reduced by the %.


Hybrid Armor
Energy Cost: 10+2 per level
Effect lasts for: 4 rounds
Cool-down: 4 rounds
Animation: Character inputs some keys on his pop-up chest plate computer and then sparks start flying through and around characters armor.
Level-------Effect
1----------Adds 10% of stat to defense and resistance
2----------Adds 10% of stat + 1 to defense and resistance
3----------Adds 10% of stat + 2 to defense and resistance
4----------Adds 10% of stat + 3 to defense and resistance
5----------Adds 10% of stat + 4 to defense and resistance
6----------Adds 10% of stat + 5 to defense and resistance
7----------Adds 10% of stat + 6 to defense and resistance
8----------Adds 10% of stat + 7 to defense and resistance
9----------Adds 10% of stat + 8 to defense and resistance
10----------Adds 10% of stat + 9 to defense and resistance

*Note: I was not sure what stat it should improve with. Dexterity would make be nice for mercs since nothing else improves with dexterity, but then a defensive skill is improving with a defensive stat.

BloodLust
Energy Cost: 5 + 3 per level
Effect: Strike, Gain 5** health whenever a player takes damage
Cooldown: x*** rounds
Animation: Character grows a giant mouth with teeth in his/her stomach, or s/he gains new bulging bloodshot eyes and blood drips from mouth or both
Level-------Effect lasts for
1-----------1 turn
2-----------2 turns
3-----------3 turns
4-----------4 turns
5-----------5 turns
6-----------6 turns
7-----------7 turns
8-----------8 turns
9-----------9 turns
10----------10 turns

*Note: This effect lasts for a certain number of turns, not rounds. This means in 2v2 a level 1 bloodlust would have gone away by the time its your turn again. Also, the strike only occurs for the turn it was cast.

**The health gained can scale with character level. Like it starts at 2 and then goes up 1 every ten levels.

***X is the amount of turns it lasts divided by the number of players

< Message edited by Sipping Cider -- 4/7/2013 23:10:27 >
Epic  Post #: 8
4/7/2013 14:10:09   
8x
Member

What if all passive skills except adrenaline would remain as they are, but would be turned into active skills. You would have to activate them and they would last for, lets say 5 turns. And they could receive a tiny buff to make it worth using them (or give them initial strike that does lower damage then normal strike).
Epic  Post #: 9
4/7/2013 16:48:33   
zion
Member

If you turn BL into frenzy, then you will need a new frenzy, right?
I think passives are important, but they shouldn't be trainable, they should be automatic as the special "attributes" of a class... and since they are automatic and scale per level, they should be easily balanced. (Think AQW where a class has +10% damage after level 4). I also think starting health/energy should vary much more between classes.
Then, you could introduce a greater variety of active skills - everyone could have a debuff, energy steal/re-gen...maybe multiple options on ultimate moves... possibilities become endless.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 10
4/7/2013 19:59:33   
Goony
Constructive!


 @Sipping Cider, well laid out thoughts and I'm sure the idea is ok, some of the figures may need tweaking since I think 65EP for 20 turns of BL is probably not a feasible option. But, the idea is good in that you activate for a certain amount of turns based on energy cost. Hybrid Armor figures may well be too high, since there is a point where more armor becomes irrelevant and that's when defences are higher than attack. The damage reverts to minimum of 3 so having huge armor may just cause a spike to rage gain for the opponent.

@zion, frenzy is a one turn only HP regain, I still see bloodlust being a buff over time, by that I mean the HP returns would work for more than 1 turn after activation, but not last the entire battle.
Epic  Post #: 11
4/7/2013 20:55:29   
Sipping Cider
Member

@G00NY

Hehe maybe not so well layed-out as I thought. A skill that costs more than the ultimates, what was I thinking? I tweaked that bit, hopefully much better. And as for the irrelevant defense, I was sorta comparing it to energy bubble and defense matrix combined, which are both skills that have that same problem. Hmm....

Edit: I toned down the skills and had hybrid armor be less potent but last longer so it is worth it to invest lots of points into it.


< Message edited by Sipping Cider -- 4/7/2013 21:02:03 >
Epic  Post #: 12
4/7/2013 21:45:23   
AllenLingChen
Member

Honestly, It's hard to change passives into actives. Considering half the meta uses at least half their points in passives, the actives need to be changed. When was the last time you saw a blood mage use plasma and win? I really feel that energy is somewhat worthless now, especially considering those EMPs for a guaranteed 40 energy loss. Still, it isn't impossible to do, they should really be more of a modifier type.
Ex:
DA
The modifiers could be the same, but the skill essentially does your gun shot and applies the extra damage, then goes in a longer cool-down, say 4 rounds.
SA
Active that reduces block able damage for energy
1: 10% reduction for 3 energy
10: Guaranteed block for 20 energy
RR
Instead of damage you take, damage you do.
Say max at 20% maybe, you do 80% dmg and heal 20% of the original dmg as energy, one hit only with CD that cannot be blocked
BL
Just like RR
20% max, do 80% dmg and heal 20% dmg, unblockable
AQ  Post #: 13
4/7/2013 22:01:58   
Sipping Cider
Member

Deadly Aim

Energy cost: 14+2 per level
Lasts for: 3 rounds
Cooldown: 3 rounds
Animation: Character shoots sidearm, but instead of normal animation bullet beeping red tracker pebbles stick to enemy’s armor, lighting the way for incoming barrage.
Level--------Effect
1------------Increased ranged critical chances against enemy by 28%
2------------Increased ranged critical chances against enemy by 32%
3------------Increased ranged critical chances against enemy by 36%
4------------Increased ranged critical chances against enemy by 40%
5------------Increased ranged critical chances against enemy by 44%
6------------Increased ranged critical chances against enemy by 48%
7------------Increased ranged critical chances against enemy by 52%
8------------Increased ranged critical chances against enemy by 56%
9------------Increased ranged critical chances against enemy by 60%
10-----------Increased ranged critical chances against enemy by 64%

*Note: Sidearm is shot upon activation. Ranged attacks are anything not involving the primary weapon that does damage

Shadow Arts

Energy Cost: 9+2 per level
Lasts for: 2 rounds
Cooldown: 3 rounds
Animation: Character runs up and in a flurry of hands and feet glowing points of light (chi pressure points) appear on enemy’s armor, giving guidance to stop blood flow on them
Level----------Effect
1---------------Attacks against enemy gain 18% stun chance
2---------------Attacks against enemy gain 22% stun chance
3---------------Attacks against enemy gain 26% stun chance
4---------------Attacks against enemy gain 30% stun chance
5---------------Attacks against enemy gain 34% stun chance
6---------------Attacks against enemy gain 38% stun chance
7---------------Attacks against enemy gain 42% stun chance
8---------------Attacks against enemy gain 46% stun chance
9---------------Attacks against enemy gain 50% stun chance
10--------------Attacks against enemy gain 54% stun chance

*Note: No damage is dealt upon activation. This would stack with other stun chances, so stun grenade with max shadow arts would have 84% chance to stun.

Mineral Armor
Energy Cost: 18 + 2 per level
Lasts for: 3 rounds
Cooldown: 4 rounds
Animation: Whirlpools of nutrients flow into characters body, slowing nurturing a healing process
Level------------Effect
1-----------------gain 9% of maximum health
2-----------------gain 10% of maximum health
3-----------------gain 11% of maximum health
4-----------------gain 12% of maximum health
5-----------------gain 13% of maximum health
6-----------------gain 14% of maximum health
7-----------------gain 15% of maximum health
8-----------------gain 16% of maximum health
9-----------------gain 17% of maximum health
10---------------gain 18% of maximum health

*Note: Ideally health is gained at end of rounds, basically so it is independent of whether your character is stunned or not. If this is not feasible for coding limitation, it could just happen at the end of characters turn.

@AllenLingChen

Woops sorry to kinda hide your suggestion in my walls of text. Very good idea, and I know I would be ok with those implementations. Another possibility would be for those to turn into cores and try to keep all abilities as something that costs energy, that way energy has more purpose as you pointed out would be nice.

< Message edited by Sipping Cider -- 4/7/2013 23:24:19 >
Epic  Post #: 14
4/7/2013 22:36:07   
AllenLingChen
Member

^I think mineral armor is too weak or too strong, depending on your clarification. If it healed 23% per round, that would 69% across 3 rounds, which is kind of broken. If it was 23% across 3 rounds, thats too weak. Also, I think for DA activation should shoot your gun and send it into cool down, or its simply not worth it. Your idea for shadow arts is kind of cool, but then again people complain about anything luck based, and it is also very power creep.
AQ  Post #: 15
4/7/2013 22:51:28   
Sipping Cider
Member

@AllenLingChen

Oh wow thanks. I forgot to really think clearly about my ability ideas again. Now mineral armor restores 54% of maximum health at max level for 36 energy. I think it is fair considering field medic restores around 60 health instantaneously for 35 energy. I also changed DA to shoot upon activation. Maybe the crit chances should change now? And as for shadow arts, what does power creep mean?
Epic  Post #: 16
4/7/2013 23:13:13   
AllenLingChen
Member

^Its just really OP. Essentially ur opponent is rendered useless half the time. Also, once again, the reason why i suggested increased damage instead of increased crit is because if it isn't guaranteed, people will always complain about luck.
AQ  Post #: 17
4/7/2013 23:15:15   
Mother1
Member

But changing it from one luck based passive to another that is even more OP then the original and luck based to boot? Not a good idea.
Epic  Post #: 18
4/7/2013 23:24:34   
Sipping Cider
Member

quote:

^Its just really OP. Essentially ur opponent is rendered useless half the time. Also, once again, the reason why i suggested increased damage instead of increased crit is because if it isn't guaranteed, people will always complain about luck.


quote:

But changing it from one luck based passive to another that is even more OP then the original and luck based to boot? Not a good idea.


Hmm I see. I changed it so it doesn't strike upon activation. Now if you have it maxed it costs 27 energy and has 54% chance to stun for two rounds, meaning probability wise you should get one stun for 27 energy and a sacrificed turn. For now, I am not focusing on luck but rather getting passives out of their OP state.

Also, I added cooldowns.
Epic  Post #: 19
4/7/2013 23:29:19   
Dual Thrusters
Member

Why not make deadly aim power up your gun and set it into a 3 turn cooldown?
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 20
4/7/2013 23:53:06   
Sipping Cider
Member

Ok, here is shadow arts (and deadly aim) without being luck based. @ Noobernaut Fusion : That makes sense, here could be a possibility


Deadly Aim

Energy cost: 5+1 per level
Lasts for: Instantaneous
Cooldown: 3 rounds
Animation: Character draws sidearm and prepares to fire. A red target appears on enemy, then shot is fired
Level--------Effect
1------------Increased sidearm damage by 15%
2------------Increased sidearm damage by 18%
3------------Increased sidearm damage by 21%
4------------Increased sidearm damage by 24%
5------------Increased sidearm damage by 27%
6------------Increased sidearm damage by 30%
7------------Increased sidearm damage by 33%
8------------Increased sidearm damage by 36%
9------------Increased sidearm damage by 39%
10----------Increased sidearm damage by 42%

*Note: Only increases base weapon damage, does not improve with strength

Shadow Arts (alternative)

Energy Cost: 9+1 per level
Lasts for: 2 rounds
Cooldown: 3 rounds
Animation: Character runs up and in a flurry of hands and feet glowing points of light (chi pressure points) appear on enemy’s armor, giving guidance to bypass defenses
Level----------Effect
1---------------Enemy's resistance and defense lowered by 36%
1---------------Enemy's resistance and defense lowered by 40%
1---------------Enemy's resistance and defense lowered by 44%
1---------------Enemy's resistance and defense lowered by 48%
1---------------Enemy's resistance and defense lowered by 52%
1---------------Enemy's resistance and defense lowered by 56%
1---------------Enemy's resistance and defense lowered by 60%
1---------------Enemy's resistance and defense lowered by 64%
1---------------Enemy's resistance and defense lowered by 68%
1---------------Enemy's resistance and defense lowered by 72%

*Note: No damage is dealt upon activation. This does not lower tech or dex, only resistance and defense
Epic  Post #: 21
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