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RE: Custom Classes - Extended

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5/16/2013 16:56:18   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

can you please explain this:
- will there be only one class in which we can equip any primary and battle, or we still have the 3 basic classes and the skill tree changes is among them only?
like mercs and tlm
or bh and ch
or bm and tm?
will skills be changed within them or its just 1 class?

the current classes we have now will remain as "default" skill trees for beginners to chose from, so they can learn the basics of the game before they try making their own skill trees.

this idea scraps staff/club/claws requiresments.
think of those 3 weps as 1 type.

then u have sword, swords will remain the same and give more stats, etc. and weapons with sword usage can stay the same
so now theres 2 types of weps.

quote:

Smokescreen, Maul, Assimilation, DA and Massacre all in the same tree? Let's not even get on the topic of Bloodlust with all that damage.


all the skills u mentioned besides maul, require mid to high level to be effective.
if people are going to come up with combinations of this and such, please do not base it off the current balance.
the stats themselves aren't balance right now.
although the second one was a strength based build, it would have been much more effective if i had gone with atom smasher on this build.

quote:

Could you clarify also on the animations? I mean, we've seen cheap shot with a sword and berzerker with a staff and even overload with claws, but massacre with a sword? A staff? A maul??

massacre would not be possible with a sword. only a "class" specific weapon.

the animations would may require some tuning for the different types of weps.
so in theory clubs, claws, and staffs become more of an art choice for the for skills that require a specific type.
AQW Epic  Post #: 51
5/16/2013 17:10:02   
Frost the Phoenix
Member

I like the sound of this idea but i think there should still be weapon type restrictions to some moves.
Not making it impossible for them to use a move but make it more effective with a certain weapon.
Like all the weapon type restricted items would be given +1 point of extra effect per tier if used with the appropriate weapon.
As for balancing this you could have a new stat called "danger level".
You would give each skill a set value and any skills combinations that work well together get a "combo" added value. (ie blood lust and bunker buster could give +10 danger)
Danger the danger level could then be worked out as a percentage and be used to balance the fights so you only go against people that are 30% to 40% more or less dangerous then you.
It could also reduce you rage gain and crit chances as this would also balance high damage skill trees but also prevent pure defense builds.
Epic  Post #: 52
5/16/2013 17:22:26   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

It could also reduce you rage gain and crit chances as this would also balance high damage skill trees but also prevent pure defense builds.

thats not really the purpose of the idea.
the idea is to create creativity on a larger scale, limiting would limit the creativity.

although there are "limitations" on the skills.

i just think that it would be better in terms of builds.

for example, why do i have a multi in my skill tree if im a 1 vs 1 player? i dont need a multi, so with this idea i could scrap it from my tree, and replace it with something thats actually usable.

quote:

I like the sound of this idea but i think there should still be weapon type restrictions to some moves.
Not making it impossible for them to use a move but make it more effective with a certain weapon.


think of it this way, massacre would be limited to staffs, clubs, and claws. and cant be used with swords.
an advantage for using the actual weapon require (i.e claws for massacre) i supposed could have a certain advantage.
however i think that would be unfair for swords.

its like being able to use a sword or a club for berserker, if the club gave more advantage then whats the point of using the sword?
AQW Epic  Post #: 53
5/16/2013 17:48:14   
Kd
Member

^ i think what Frost the Phoenix means is that you would be able to use clubs/claws/staffs for moves that currently require class specific weapons- ie you could use a club for cheap shot- but if you use the original class specific weapon it has a bonus. i.e.- if i use claws for cheap shot it would do more damage than a maul for cheap shot would. I support this because it separates the class specific weapons and makes them have an additional tactical purpose instead of them all just being art-based.

Also, I like the idea of being able to have multiple similar skills, i.e. 2 double strikes, but i think heal ought to be limited to 1 skill, and other skills should not be able to be duplicated as well. Otherwise what is to stop me from having something absurd like 3/4 level 1-3 heals that only cost 17-21 energy a piece and then high strength/support...so id be able to deal very high damage and then heal multiple turns in a row while gaining enough rage to rage my next attack? Not to mention the problem multiple level 3 plasma bolts would cause. Im not sure which skills would not be able to be duplicated, or if this new system would point out the glaring necessity to nerf certain low energy/high damage skills, but here's just my ideas. Thoughts?
Epic  Post #: 54
5/16/2013 18:00:13   
goldslayer1
Member

@KD
well the skill duplication is only a concept. if there skills themselves were balance, skill duplicates shouldn't be an issue.

as for the heal part, what if i want a high level field medic and a low level one?
u might ask, whats the point of that?

well if my first field medic is lvl 6 (51 hp) but my hp is 61/100
then maybe i could use my other field medic thats level 2 (39 hp), and be able to heal.
if i healed with the big one, it would be a waste of energy, and a waste of the skill's effectiveness. because we cant have hp that goes over 100%

also each duplicate would be separate skills, so they require their own skill points and energy. and they would have their own cooldowns aswell.

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 5/16/2013 19:27:35 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 55
5/16/2013 18:57:01   
Kd
Member

^ Right, okay I understand what you're saying. I wouldn't be as worried about what you just described, so I guess the solution could be that if you want two heals then one has to be at least a certain level. That, or one heal could put the other into a 1-2 turn cool down (just for heals not for other skills).
Epic  Post #: 56
5/16/2013 22:27:21   
CodexC
Member

Supported. I think its a great idea and I think it encourages more strat in building. Also I think that we should be able to hide our builds with this new feature. Just a suggestion. There are a few problems like character looks (Everyone looks like a BH TM or MErc?) and animations might be a problem but the devs can figure it out xD
Epic  Post #: 57
5/16/2013 22:33:27   
Mother1
Member

@ codexc

The staff will never let that happen as they are more worried about people not being able to find a build rather then build copying. Also I can see many players not liking this since they want to know what they are up against before it hits them.
Epic  Post #: 58
5/17/2013 3:48:09   
kittycat
Member

It also doesn't matter because players are leaning in the winning side most of the time, so I don't think this is recommended.

Here are a few possible OP combos:

-Blood Lust, Malfunction, Plasma Bolt/Cannon
-Smoke, Technician, Bunker Buster
-Plasma Armor, Reflex Boost, Technician, Overload
AQ MQ  Post #: 59
5/17/2013 4:20:08   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

-Blood Lust, Malfunction, Plasma Bolt/Cannon
-Smoke, Technician, Bunker Buster
-Plasma Armor, Reflex Boost, Technician, Overload

1) cant have plasma bolt and cannon in the same tree, they are both ranged attacks.
2) so you would used technician, smokescreen before bunker so u can get maybe 10-15 extra damage? and how much energy will u be using?this would most likely only be usable once.
3) overload progresses with dex, so whats the point of technician? and overload isn't that powerful

if there's any skill causing major problems, it will prove that skills aren't balanced, and need to be adjusted.

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 5/17/2013 4:21:29 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 60
5/17/2013 5:46:44   
DarkDevil
Member

not supporting the whole custom builds idea due to its unbalanced.

a ch doesnt have reflex boost why?
because a support ch with reflex boost can maximize his malf and reflex boost and multi to do very huge damage.

while a bh doesnt have tecnician to not boost smoke and emp nor the field commander to not boost his damage furthermore.

a merc doesnt have malf nor smoke to not mix it with his high str and fohuge ammounts of damage.

a tm doesnt have an armour skill as plasma and the others because he already have the highest damage spells.

so if this is broke then the game will be unbalanced.
AQ Epic  Post #: 61
5/17/2013 5:53:05   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

so if this is broke then the game will be unbalanced.

it already is unbalanced.
AQW Epic  Post #: 62
5/17/2013 6:09:01   
TRizZzCENTRINO
Member

why put extra effort to make custom classes if it is gonna end up like what we currently have? a waste of time IMO
it may sound like a good idea at first with all the skills combos you could use but it would just end up with people using the best combo and others copying it without changing their class, easier to copy because nothing is stopping them(50k credit cost or 900 varium cost)
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 63
5/17/2013 6:12:51   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

easier to copy because nothing is stopping them

actually its much easier to copy it now.

the point of this is to get players to think about making their builds, not copy it from the whoever they see thats on the leaderboards.
but the reason its easier to copy now is because of the classes, each only has a certain amount of builds.
with this, u could make many builds. so its harder to copy from a large pool of builds than it is from a bucket of water.

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 5/17/2013 6:13:20 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 64
5/17/2013 7:12:09   
TRizZzCENTRINO
Member

lol, even though thewre is lots to choose from, there are gonna be 1-2 OP builds that everyone would copy and use, like the caster mage, support and strength abuse mage, surgical merc etc.. so this is pointless unless build hiding is implemented but that would create more problems
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 65
5/17/2013 7:13:02   
DarkDevil
Member

@goldslayer1 : so your reffering that when something is unbalanced then we should make everything unbalanced to create a balance of unbalanced ?!

if ppl are to copy builds then ppl will anti the copied builds where the copied builds are made to beat the ordinary builds so they will change to the ordinary builds to anti the anti builds.
this is how a dueling game works ... ppl keep changing to anti each other all the time so that the only one left without being antied is then nerfed to make no builds unantiable (donno if its a word).
but as the game works ppl will settle down on a build and try to do some modifications to make themselves variable and cant beat some while can beat some.
so the idea of custom builds is refused cus some skills are in some classes to nerf them like tecnician in ch instead of reflex boost or field comander in tlm instead of blood commander.
its to not make someone complementary by all his skills but only few should work togather making the idea of builds orelse everyone will have a whole skill tree snyrging with each other making himself OP.

if you can answer this question then the whole thread is useless:
why doesnt bh have field commander skill instead of reflex boost ?
why does tlm have field commander instead of blood commander ?
why doesnt ch get reflex boost instead of tecnician ?
why doesnt the mercs or blood mages have smoke ?
they all have 1 answer to end this.

< Message edited by DarkDevil -- 5/17/2013 7:19:43 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 66
5/17/2013 7:35:08   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

why doesnt bh have field commander skill instead of reflex boost ?

because mercs had it, and now tlms have it. they try not to have too many overlapping skills

quote:

why does tlm have field commander instead of blood commander ?

people complained about mercs not having any means of regenerating health/energy
and at the time field commander was pretty useless so they decided to buff mercs through field commander by giving it a bloodlust like effect.

quote:

why doesnt ch get reflex boost instead of tecnician ?

because CH already has defense matrix, which is way more useful if ur trying to achieve more defense.

quote:

why doesnt the mercs or blood mages have smoke ?

i just told u about overlapping skills.

the thing about classes is that it makes some skills unbalanced in the process of trying to balance a CLASS with another CLASS.
take a look at blood mage VS tech mage, fireball VS plasma bolt.
bloodmage was deemed OP and therefore fireball was nerfed
tech mage was deemed UP and therefor plasma bolt was nerfed.

but in reality fireball and plasma bolt are exactly the same type of skill, except one is physical and the other is energy, and improve by a different stat. thus, plasma bolt right now is stronger than fireball.

quote:

its to not make someone complementary by all his skills but only few should work togather making the idea of builds orelse everyone will have a whole skill tree snyrging with each other making himself OP.

the point of this is to be allowed to play the game based on ur style of play. not how the game wants u to play.
did u notice how mercs have NO dex based skills? tlm only has 1 dex based skill, and its the worst one of them all.

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 5/17/2013 7:40:09 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 67
5/17/2013 7:51:58   
DarkDevil
Member

i think you pretty much answered yourself.
if you are to put those overlaping skills togather then you wont make any source of balance where your just discribing the difference between energy charge and assimilation or blood commander and field commander or deadly aim or shadow arts , if you get to choose youll pick blood commander and assimilation and deadly aim.
in case of support ch the reflex boost will gain bonus from support as does the malf so the multi will recive more boost so you can use reflex boost then malf then multi then aux to do over 150 dmg which is enough to kill anyone knowing he will only have 20 or much less resistance while malfed so your at 110 or more damage which is why ch doesnt have reflex boost.

if your to pick abilitys you will pick the ones that most favours your combo and which is why you cant , to not be fully powered.

< Message edited by DarkDevil -- 5/17/2013 7:59:53 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 68
5/17/2013 8:03:18   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

if you are to put those overlaping skills togather then you wont make any source of balance where your just discribing the difference between energy charge and assimilation or blood commander and field commander or deadly aim or shadow arts , if you get to choose youll pick blood commander and assimilation and deadly aim.

the point of this idea is to
A) create much more creativity
B) make it easier on the devs to balance the SKILLS, classes will never be balanced. they never had balance between the classes at any point in time, and the game has been around for nearly 4 years.

C) it makes it easier to implement NEW skills into the game without needing to make new classes (which then making new classes would open up a whole new can of worms in terms of balance, making it much harder on them)

D) makes it easier to implement new stat types with skills that could relate to that stat type. (I.e a "sorcery" stat which empowers new types of moves)

E) allows players to use builds that suit their playstyles. whether that be offensive, or defensive.


at the end, they would be balancing skills instead of classes since balancing a skill is MUCH easier than balancing entire classes.
while at the same time allow for much more creativity and diversity in the game, which the players will enjoy more.

but u seem to take the current balance into account, u should know the current balance is terrible.
stats themselves aren't balanced, HP is terribly low. so this will require a more changes to the stat system.

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 5/17/2013 8:10:35 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 69
5/17/2013 8:22:30   
DarkDevil
Member

your taking it wrong as they must not balance skills but combos since u will gain access to more than 30 different combo which is way harder than just balancing 6 classes.
each skill can react with the other and they must count that too and not just skill vs skill as 2 balanced skills vs 2 balanced skills will give different result than each one against the other.

if you say 6 classes aint balanced then more than 30 combos will NEVER be balanced.

< Message edited by DarkDevil -- 5/17/2013 8:24:59 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 70
5/17/2013 8:26:58   
Xendran
Member

quote:

if you say 6 classes aint balanced then more than 30 combos will NEVER be balanced.


Only if the skills and stats stay imbalanced.
Fix the skills&stats and you can make modular skill trees all day every day. Infinite classes.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 71
5/17/2013 8:29:43   
goldslayer1
Member

^
pretty much what i been trying to tell him (and others), i guess he doesn't understand that.

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 5/17/2013 8:30:01 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 72
5/17/2013 8:43:28   
Xendran
Member

I actually have a system for this written up, but it's more restrictive than yours. It also takes into consideration some changes to skill powers and costs however.
Biggest thing you need to do is separate shields and buffs. My list actually has blood commander fully taken out and replaced with Tactics, however. BC is a skill that is purposely overpowered in order to attempt to balance an underpowered class. This is why BC is so ridiculously dangerous when a supp merc casts it on his partner instead of himself.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 73
5/17/2013 8:48:18   
DarkDevil
Member

take for example two similar skills as technician and reflex boost , they both increase your armour but one increases defence and other resistance .
how are u refering that they will both affect smoke the same ?
one will increase it ,other wont when the two should be the same.
see what i ment by reaction ?

< Message edited by DarkDevil -- 5/17/2013 8:49:37 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 74
5/17/2013 8:52:27   
goldslayer1
Member

@xendran
yeah i had the buffs and shields separated before. i made some changes after feedback which included adding the shields to the buffs category
and i also had the damage attacks separate based on the damage and cost
but changed it to ranged and melee. (which split the 2 categories evenly)

theres also the issue of assimilation and static charge. some say its a passive, some others say it isn't.
thats why i put them under the "EP" category
AQW Epic  Post #: 75
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