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RE: Why NPC wins are good for the game

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5/19/2013 11:59:23   
Lord Loss...
Member

quote:

No, the PvP is.


And you PvP for what exactly? Now Idk about you but I pvp to get wins and more specifically to get more wins and as little loses as possible, which is exactly what this game is based on. Who has more wins, who has better ratio. These are the 2 core elements and Npc wins are a loophole that allow you to in a way cheat. You said yourself you get guaranteed 15 wins per hour so obviously you realise that it's free wins that boost your win count and ratio which is supposed to be gained with PvP which is the most important element of the game. There I had to go around in a circle but do you get my point now?
AQW Epic  Post #: 51
5/19/2013 11:59:40   
Xendran
Member

I always got your point. The thing is, that point doesn't matter because the damage has already been done.
It's already gone past the point of no return with how much it messed up the boards and win rates.


NPC Wins: People have inflated win rates
NPC Wins Removed after being allowed to sit: People still have inflated win rates, but all of the player retention from NPC wins is now gone.





< Message edited by Xendran -- 5/19/2013 12:03:46 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 52
5/19/2013 12:07:02   
Oba
Member

quote:

Which isn't going to happen, so i'm looking for other changes to help get this game back on its feet.


So we cant fix the PvP, why not handle away 15 free wins per hour to make it all alright, is that what you mean? Sure, it will most likely boost the activity in the game for the first 10 minutes every hour. For a short time. But if we dont enjoy doing PvP, and there is barely anything else to do in this game. What will 15 extra wins do? Nothing. If trying to find a way of creating a future for this game is what you're doing, it was a nice try but it will just go even deeper in the pit with this if you ask me. I have always been against PvE battles in a PvP game.

< Message edited by Oba -- 5/19/2013 12:08:26 >
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 53
5/19/2013 12:09:56   
Lord Loss...
Member

Bringing it back will not fix it and before you refer me to your first post, let me remind you that you only listed the positive side of Npc wins which was not a valid enough argument for the Dev's not to remove the feature so I doubt it will be a valid enough argument to Bring it back. Also maybe if you look at Smackie's last post he made quite a few good points about your first post, 15 wins per hour does not let you compete on a higher level since everybody get's it. Also you can't talk about Npc wins as if everybody did them. I for one loathed NPC battles and tried to avoid them as much as possible unless a mission required me to fight them. Also Brining back Npc wins will not equal the grounds between new players who have 0 npc wins and old players who already have thousands upon thousands. New players will start getting npc wins and the old Players shall simply resume their daily routine of Npc farming.
AQW Epic  Post #: 54
5/19/2013 12:12:23   
EpicIsEpic
Member

Definetl supported!
Post #: 55
5/19/2013 12:18:45   
Xendran
Member

quote:

, 15 wins per hour does not let you compete on a higher level since everybody get's it.


That's exactly right. Everybody is doing 15 wins in around the same amount of time. This means that players that dont have every promo, but are still 35 with maxed gear can take down these NPCs just as fast and efficiently as a 35 that has a core like Azrael's Will, which is a definite boost to your win rate (and thus wins per hour).

During the time that those 15 NPCs are being fought, everybody competing will be brought from whatever winrate and win speed they were at, down to a predictable one. Most people will switch builds to a specific one for NPCs, so none of this "well what about tank builds vs high str bh".
quote:


I for one loathed NPC battles and tried to avoid them as much as possible unless a mission required me to fight them.


Same here, personal preference. Just because i hate the idea of it in general doesn't mean I'm going to deny that bringing it back would be good for the game.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 56
5/19/2013 12:27:58   
Lord Loss...
Member

So wait, please explain to me. If I get 15 wins and you get 15 wins, does that not mean that it will fall on PvP battles yet again to decide who gets more wins and who gets better ratio? Both of us getting 15 wins cancels eachother out and leaves PvP as a decisive factor again. So basically Npc wins are useless if we compete in dailies since it neutralizes itself, but harmful when players only do npc battles everyday for the first 10 minutes of every hour to slowly pull ahead in ratio and wins.
Also better gear does give you an advantage against Npcs. You kill it no matter what, but good gear like for example azrael with all it's criting abilities can be the decisive factor on if you kill the given npc in 3 turns or 4 turns or 5 turns.

_____________________________
AQW Epic  Post #: 57
5/19/2013 12:40:41   
Smackie El Frog
Member

quote:

Same here, personal preference. Just because i hate the idea of it in general doesn't mean I'm going to deny that bringing it back would be good for the game.


But you are being a furious advocate for it makes me think you are not telling the whole truth.

I am with Lord Loss on this. I stayed away from NPC's as much as I could because they were merely win percent fodder and nothing else.

_____________________________
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 58
5/19/2013 12:45:17   
Xendran
Member

quote:

So wait, please explain to me. If I get 15 wins and you get 15 wins, does that not mean that it will fall on PvP battles yet again


Like i said, it only helps. It's an encourager, not a gamechanger.

quote:

But you are being a furious advocate for it makes me think you are not telling the whole truth.


This thread is the first time in this games existence where i have advocated this. I personally wouldn't use it if it was implemented.
At the moment, i'm actually trying to find ways of making ED more profitable without damaging the game while also raising the player count.
The reason ED is so screwed in its balance is because there simply is not enough manpower to fix it. It would take months with close to zero content other than skill cores to complete a balance overhaul, and they don't have the passion for it so they need to hire somebody to do it for them.

If they make AE more profit, that increases the chances of an additional staff member being taken on as a way to continue positive change that brings profit.


What i think should happen regarding win ratios

Your rank icon should be pushed a bit to the right, and a new category beside losses called "PVP Win Ratio" should be added. It would just show your % win ratio only counting pvp battles.
This way you can keep your wins, but also have your true pvp win ratio displayed.

< Message edited by Xendran -- 5/19/2013 12:48:39 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 59
5/19/2013 12:50:11   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 I'll stand behind NPC wins as long as they get a buff to them. All of them. I didn't like them because they were nothing but a buffer to win ratio. A lvl 30 would go against a lvl 25 NPC and pretty much cream him in 3 rounds or less. The best solution would be to make NPC level ranges, rather than a single level. Like a City Guard in Central Station could be anywhere from 1-10 and after you're lvl 11, you can't fight him any more. They also need to be (Player Lvl+5) in terms of stats due to the lack of strategy, adaptation, rage and any other setbacks they have compared to a normal player.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 60
5/19/2013 12:56:25   
Lord Loss...
Member

I don't possibly comprehend how doing 15 guaranteed wins per hour will encourage anybody, but fine, even if it was an encourager, you say it is not a game changer so it will be of little value. However to quote myself from the last post
quote:

but harmful when players only do npc battles everyday for the first 10 minutes of every hour to slowly pull ahead in ratio and wins.

In this case it will not only be a game changer for players such as this, but their entire gaming experience will revolve around it. therefore more cons than pros wouldn't you say?
AQW Epic  Post #: 61
5/19/2013 13:17:42   
Xendran
Member

quote:

but harmful when players only do npc battles everyday for the first 10 minutes of every hour to slowly pull ahead in ratio and wins.


Solved by

quote:

What i think should happen regarding win ratios

Your rank icon should be pushed a bit to the right, and a new category beside losses called "PVP Win Ratio" should be added. It would just show your % win ratio only counting pvp battles.
This way you can keep your wins, but also have your true pvp win ratio displayed.



The "Wins" counter is already corrupted, and basically just a show of time. They DID spend the time on those wins, so they should get credit for it, but it should stay separate from the ratio if possible not if possible, it is very posisble and not particularly difficult.
I actually am only in support of NPC wins returning back if the ratio is separated, now that i've realized how easy of a fix it is.

< Message edited by Xendran -- 5/19/2013 13:18:22 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 62
5/19/2013 13:20:22   
Lord Loss...
Member

Then make the Npc wins separate like the 1vs1 and 2vs2 wins are separate and fine. Make it 1vs1 wins, 2vs2 wins, Juggernaut wins and below them your count of npc wins.
AQW Epic  Post #: 63
5/19/2013 13:29:34   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

How in the heck does a guaranteed 15 wins make it more competitive if everyone one can get these wins?

even in delta i lost to some NPCs due to bad luck. so i wouldn't call it guaranteed.

quote:

Exactly, the PvP is the main concern so why the heck do we have to "improve" PvE? To make players continue with the game PvP need to be fixed, 15 free wins per hour is nothing that will change to activity on ED.

15 NPCs battles per hour will most definitely increase activity.

did u not notice how people piled up before the begining of every hour by the usual farm-able NPCs?
on weekends at world 7 mechas people used to pile up, easily 40-50 players right before reset in a single room.

also yes PvE does need improvement, or did u forget its part of the storyline? if NPCs weren't here, there wouldn't be a storyline would there?

quote:

So we cant fix the PvP, why not handle away 15 free wins per hour to make it all alright, is that what you mean?

no, its a way for ED to retain some players from leaving due to their terrible balance that it has now.

quote:

Also you can't talk about Npc wins as if everybody did them. I for one loathed NPC battles and tried to avoid them as much as possible unless a mission required me to fight them.

this is why NPCs were optional.
what xendran is suggesting is that NPCs be made more difficult, and can only be of ur level. same suggestion i made, that u cant challenge NPCs of lower levels, because i dont remember anyone challenging titan/nightwraith hourly.

making NPCs of ur same level bring it to be on par with players or even more, would be good because it will allow players to fight the NPCs and have the same difficulty if not more, than players.


if paying players want to play NPCs like before, then why is it an issue? ED is already having problem with balance and is losing old veteran players.

for the competitive purposes, the wins should still count on the regular daily boards and faction boards.

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 5/19/2013 13:30:49 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 64
5/19/2013 13:33:15   
Xendran
Member

quote:

and below them your count of npc wins.


If it still counts towards ranks, then sure.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 65
5/19/2013 13:44:15   
doomkiller98
Member

PvE or PvP

Why not both? *mexican music*
Post #: 66
5/19/2013 13:47:44   
Goony
Constructive!


 There is a way to do this without re introducing NPC battles and that would be to have NPC's randomly spawn for 1v1 and 2v2 battles. The devs can do anything with NPC's now (apart from using a robot) and I can remember during Omega testing when they had NPC's raging!

This is just an option and I don't know if it something the devs are looking at doing at some time in the future!

Maybe they could have NPC's also be a mirror challenge, so you play against yourself :)

< Message edited by Goony -- 5/19/2013 13:50:26 >
Epic  Post #: 67
5/19/2013 13:51:13   
Xendran
Member

That would do nothing but anger players. That feature would be better off used as a way to replace partners that leave before taking any action.

When i hit the pvp button, i expect pvp. If an npc shows up, i'm not gonna be particularly happy, especially those of us that value non-NPC win ratios.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 68
5/19/2013 13:57:48   
Goony
Constructive!


 You could always have a option in settings if you'd prefer just players in your battles ;)
Epic  Post #: 69
5/19/2013 14:00:32   
Xendran
Member

As long as it's optional, and the npcs pose a threat if you aren't careful, sure.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 70
5/19/2013 14:03:17   
Goony
Constructive!


 Yeah, well the yetis with rage were deadly... The NPC's probably need a decent balance pass at some stage thou!
Epic  Post #: 71
5/19/2013 14:11:12   
Mother1
Member

@ goony

I remember the staff saying that they were going to do something like that when the infernal war started outside of the war. It said something along the line that you would have a chance to fight with or against A Mechachild in the battle modes but for whatever reason it never went through.
Epic  Post #: 72
5/19/2013 14:22:53   
Goony
Constructive!


 @Mother, that was delta and the battle engine has been completely re written since.
I'm not sure what the future role of NPC's will be in EpicDuel, but I do agree with the OP that the effect of removing them totally in terms of battle rewards has effected the games level of enjoyment to some degree.

I guess I'll have to wait and see what happens, but it's a topic worth discussing :)
Epic  Post #: 73
5/19/2013 14:26:45   
Evric
Member

I strongly agree with Xendran Statement.

Npc were there for a reason...
Post #: 74
5/19/2013 15:05:30   
Drianx
Member

@Xendran
quote:

Adding NPC wins ups the ante by allowing all players a guaranteed 15 wins per hour.

Then why do you suggest NPCs to be buffed to be equal in power with Titan? In my opinion, they could be just as easy as being 1-shot.
Furthermore, they could be a burden if the build meant to beat NPCs is not effective in other PvP.

And another question: how many wins per hour do you think it would be reasonable to have? 15, just as before? More? Less?

< Message edited by Drianx -- 5/19/2013 15:06:04 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 75
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