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RE: Luck factor discussion

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6/17/2013 21:23:51   
toopygoo
Member

tbh archlord: here is what i find:
youre right about people with the high win rates and more crits:
a ton of the people i face with with 19 strength damage, and 5 dex, end up critting, blocking and deflecting even though i have a tank build with 23 dex and 28 tech and ninja reflexes... they need to allow percents to reach 0 to overcome this issue, because they are abusing that bit right now.
also they are raging 2 times before i rage once, even though they are higher level and i have level 5 adrenaline.... all of this adds up to HUGE benefits to those who do in fact abuse stats.
AQW Epic  Post #: 26
6/17/2013 21:29:21   
Mother1
Member

@ Toopygoo

even if they did people would just oh I don't know use those luck cores to overcome this. Sure they will be without one defense stat possibly depending on build, (Since you can't have both block and deflection cores on) but that is what most will do.

Also this would also cause issues with support builds as well since their opponents will never be able to crit or stun.

This idea would cause a lot more problems then it would solve IMO and I didn't even mention all of them.
Epic  Post #: 27
6/18/2013 1:17:00   
Khalix
Member

If it reached 0%, then disadvantaged (In terms of stats) players would have less opportunities to win because it will deny them of the capability to win.

Problem is, with this system, the people posting here are high-levels with mostly high win ratios that are frustrated with the fact x had better RNG results than themselves- Which resulted in a loss.
Epic  Post #: 28
6/18/2013 1:29:03   
Mother1
Member

@ Khalix

I see lower levels post here but that was only when it had to do something with juggernaut mode.

But in terms of what you are saying basically anytime something gets in the way of someone getting the wins they want they want it removed or nerfed into the ground?
Epic  Post #: 29
6/18/2013 1:35:27   
Khalix
Member

When people talk about wins, that gives me the impression their priority isn't balance, but the wins they could get.

That's why I usually talk about them in my previous threads and how they manipulate balance for their own sake.

_____________________________

The 'Win' Complex
The Great Forum Schism
Unlike the general populace, I present problems AND solutions.
Epic  Post #: 30
6/18/2013 6:01:24   
toopygoo
Member

yes its about the wins i "could" get
ill take one factor into consideration: crits
this morning i got up nice and early to have a few games before school because servers are empty, games go fast, and generally other people just play poorly at this time...

first 6 2v2 games, wanna take a stab at how much i lost due to crits?
if you guessed 6, you're right!

each one consisted of the others teams' regular attacks critting 4-5 times successfully, with different players each time. unless i found the first 10 people hacking, i do very much find this to be a problem with the percents they have in their RNG, because this should be occurring so frequently.

i had a game against some with lower tech, dex and support (pure strength build) kill me in 3 turns in strikes, after i used intimidate on him.... just critted three times....

and do you want to know how much health they had left each time? less than 10. the game was supposed to be ours. we should have won those games in 1 turn, except they block/deflect, and then just crit the hell out of me.

is this biased? probably.
do i have a good reason to be mad here? yes.... that is 90 influence, 25 minutes, 48 EXP, 12 tokens, and 90 credits i lost, that were in my palm already so to speak.
This is not even counting the 1v1 matches... thi build consistently puts out a 5:3 win:loss ratio... todays record: 4:8... and its against the same people i played and beat yesterday. nothing has changed except my luck...
and if you say that we don't take into account the games this happens to us: i do... most people i play with, unless they crit the heck outta me first, i tend to apologize and express my hatred for crits even if they are my own.
it is a luck factor that is unnecessary at this phase of the game, and if i cant win without luck, i don't want to win with it. if i cant win without luck, that means the other player knows something i dont, and is better than me and deserves to win.


< Message edited by toopygoo -- 6/18/2013 6:21:34 >

_____________________________
AQW Epic  Post #: 31
6/18/2013 6:21:06   
Mother1
Member

Toopygoo

You win some you lose some you have to remember IT IS JUST A GAME.

Epic  Post #: 32
6/18/2013 6:23:17   
toopygoo
Member

@mother1

yes, and you have to remember, its wasting my time and money, and has caused, is causing and will cause many players to leave, who just cannot deal with the fact that even why they try and use builds that others do, they will lose because of the immeasurable and hiding factor of luck, which is still involved way too much for a PvP game.
AQW Epic  Post #: 33
6/18/2013 9:02:47   
Khalix
Member

1. You spent the money for the game willingly, that means accepting the terms and conditions along with the purchase.
2. You choose to spend time on the game, it's not forcing you to stay until you get those wins back.
3. I find your reasoning lacking and exaggerated.

---

The thing is, the mentality of players in ED are different from the ones gamers from non-turn-based games have. Since things are done in turns, whatever's done to you is done and the only way for the victim to recover is if he or his teammate spends a turn on that recovery. Problem is, due to criticals, they require more turns to recover which would lead to a rather inevitable demise unless they themselves score lucky.

...

Might cook up another thread.
Epic  Post #: 34
6/18/2013 10:24:21   
ReinVI
Member

Luck percents are... high to say the least thanks to cores mainly such as the "mastery" cores or whatever that add a base 4% to your crit rate for side/ aux which means that's an extra 4/100 crits ontop of whatever your base x/100 is at that moment. This combined with a moderate amount of points in support can create a decent amount of crit% in your favor in battle this % grows even worse when the other player is using a support build especially when it's a merc / tact merc since they have skills that increase with support as well as passive armors to make up the loss in dex ( tact ) or dex/tech ( merc ).

What I propose to fix the cores is to buff there %'s but change how they work an example being the 6% block core at the moment this creates a 6% un-reduceable chance to block what they should do is make it to where it's say... +10% to block BUT it raises that % based on your base chance so say your fighting a bounty with a base 30% chance to block and he has this +10% core that SHOULD make his base chance 33% given that 3 is 10% of his base chance which I believe is more than fair given how heavily luck can be used in influence battles.

as for the %'s in general I do kind of agree with the idea that if a opponent is taken down to a degree ( 40 dex with a -48 dex ) should give him 0% chance to block but the problem would be this creates an unbalance between classes with and without debuffs Malf classes can skyrocket there malf's and make it almost impossible for an opponent to deflect the impending destruction of a undeflectable sidearm/ bot/ aux and the same thing comes into play kind of with a bounty being able to hit with a super charged bot ( tech spam to increase smoke ) or a strong cheap shot / other moves not to mention all while bounties will be regaining life due to blood lust.

Conclusion is! luck is important it's currently kind of unbalanced at the moment but the problem is balancing it could actually lead to even more unbalance luck factors being changed is a VERY slippery slope to edit and change running the risk of one class being able to gain an unfair advantage over others due to edits to the luck system.
Epic  Post #: 35
6/18/2013 11:09:12   
Mother1
Member

@ ReinVi

which is why I am against making calculations go down to 0. It would buff BH CH and TM while hurting the other classes. Not to mention the overused builds (Strength support TM CH) (Tech Smoke BH) will get huge buffs and will be even harder to defeat since with these classes some builds need their luck factors which these overused builds will have to power to take down to 0 if this change is made.
Epic  Post #: 36
6/19/2013 16:48:15   
GearzHeadz
Member

Funny thing about "luck while I can have 138 dex, I can still never hit some 45 dex guy and he can constantly hit me. Happens all the time to me.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 37
6/19/2013 16:51:15   
Mother1
Member

@ Gearzheadz

More dex =/= you will block more then your opponent just like having less dex =/= you won't connect at all. All having more dex does means you will have more of a chance to block your opponent.
Epic  Post #: 38
6/19/2013 16:59:42   
SylvanElf
Member
 

 @mother1

I think what many of these posters including myself don't like about luck is the way very unlikely occurrences seem to happen more often than the stated % would suggest.

Perhaps what we really want is a kind of artificial limitation on the amount of unlikely effects that can happen in one fight.
Post #: 39
6/19/2013 17:02:37   
Mother1
Member

@ sylvanelf

In other words a way to control the uncontrollable.
Epic  Post #: 40
6/19/2013 17:04:25   
SylvanElf
Member
 

 @mother1

Oh I think it's controllable, it'd just be an artificial limitation.
Having unlimited luck factors doesn't seem to be satisfying the playerbase overall, so maybe this is the way to go.
Post #: 41
6/19/2013 17:14:09   
Mother1
Member

@ Sylvanelf

In other words like I said controlling the uncontrollable. Even putting a limit on how many times you can block, deflect, stun, and crit is another form of controlling them since as it is now they happen as many times as possible within a match.

Plus this "Limiter" as you say it is will be nothing more then a nerf to every stat other then strength (since each luck factor is controlled by dex, tech, and support.)
Epic  Post #: 42
6/19/2013 17:19:41   
SylvanElf
Member
 

 @mother1

Not sure what you mean, because in my world if you control something, by definition it's no longer uncontrollable.

Aside from that, if this is a bad idea, do you have alternative ideas? Or are you just saying that there is no solution at all...
Post #: 43
6/19/2013 17:21:53   
Azwan
Member

Sort the balance out:

https://imageshack.com/a/img823/6098/tmrq.png
DF  Post #: 44
6/19/2013 17:29:47   
Mother1
Member

@ sylvanelf

What you were suggesting sounds to me like to limit these x factors form being infinite to have a set number and when that happens they cannot happen again. Which in a way is controlling the uncontrollable since before their is no limit to how many times you can do something where as with your idea there would be.

Also my solution would be the removal of all cores that increase luck factors while leaving in the ones that decrease them and refund everyone's money who is currently using a core that increase these luck factors or an item (Azreal's bane Azreal's curse are examples) they had to pay for with these cores.

I mean seriously before omega while luck did happen it never happened to the extent that is happening now. By removing cores that increase luck factors but at the same time keeping the cores that decrease them there when these factors do happen they won't hurt as less, and they won't happen as often due to their being no core to increase the chances of these effects happening.
Epic  Post #: 45
6/19/2013 17:34:13   
SylvanElf
Member
 

 @mother1

Hmm I must have missed where you suggested that earlier.
I like the idea and it sounds like it would work in the right direction,
but you know how reluctant the devs are to remove an element they added themselves.

Well thanks for the discussion, and I hope the right people notice your idea to move it forward.
Post #: 46
6/19/2013 17:37:41   
Azwan
Member

How about we just forget about Omega and go back to how it was before. That is the best suggestion. Capitalism.
DF  Post #: 47
6/19/2013 17:44:29   
Dual Thrusters
Member

@Mother

I think just removing the luck cores that were purchaseable in omega should be refunded. Azreal's bane was not a problem in delta, so i don't think it deserves to be stripped of its power. Same with all the other luck core's before omega (Curse Aura, Frost Aura, Lucky Strike, Stun Blast, massive strike etc.)

Actually, back then it was actually quite fun to have these. But here are the cores that should be refunded

-Ninja Reflexes
-Deflection Sheild
-Weapon Mastery cores
-Auxiliary Stun Shot

Here are someluck based cores I think should stay in-game because the acually make luck a bit interesting.

-Aim Assist
-Laser Sights
-Nanosteel Armor
-Overload Sheild
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 48
6/19/2013 17:44:47   
Mother1
Member

@ Azwan

LoL I said this before and I will say it again. When we were in delta the question of the day was "Where is omega?" and I would here this question even more then F4F which said something. Now omega is here and now everyone is screaming "We want delta back!"

But on a serious note that won't be happening. The staff put in too much work just to undo Omega and bring back Delta. Non variums would become punching bags to varium players once again, Cores would vanish and Enhancements would come back, Not to mention high level Jugs will have the advantage over their opponents once again. Omega isn't balanced I will give you that but at the same time it got rid of a lot of problems delta had.

@ dual thrusters

I think you mean stun shot since that came with the stun gun because stun blast was from omega in the form of the aux.

Also I excluded cores that made luck factors happen less which includes lucky strike since it make blocks happen less often with strikes. Personally I don't mind luck good or bad, but the person who was speaking with me asked if I had a solution and this was the one I came up with.

Also on Massive strike LOL when that first came out people were complaining about it left and right. I even remember one person (he was non varium) that hated this core so much he wanted the developers to create a neutralizer cored weapon that would passively shut down all other passive cores on all primary when he admitted that he only had a problem with this one core.

< Message edited by Mother1 -- 6/19/2013 17:57:39 >
Epic  Post #: 49
6/20/2013 3:27:48   
GearzHeadz
Member

Luck is responsible for the majority of my deaths.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 50
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