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RE: Nerf aim assist

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6/29/2013 22:03:05   
Bloodpact
Member

Not supported

Nerfing an anti-luck = No.


I do support the idea of buffing lucky strike [common] to 4%
Epic  Post #: 26
6/29/2013 22:10:47   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 Wait, why is it anti-luck? It's more like pro-luck because the players with low technology are lucky enough to not get deflected at all. It's like how I can call a support build with the mastery cores anti-luck cores because the opponent would be lucky not to get crit at least once by my attacks. Does this logic not make sense to other people?
Epic  Post #: 27
6/29/2013 22:38:26   
Mother1
Member

@ exploding

He is talking about not nerfing cores that reduce luck factor. Many people are already annoyed as heck with luck and would rather see less luck factor and nerf cores that increase luck rather then have cores get nerfed that reduce luck.
Epic  Post #: 28
6/29/2013 23:43:17   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


 @Exploding Penguin

Typically, after being malfed, the average tech-focus build will only have about 15% chance to deflect a strength-support mage's attacks. Even if the mage is itself malfed, the maximum deflection chance is a mere 25%. Given those numbers, it is indeed lucky for a player to deflect a strength-support mage's attacks. Statistically, you should deflect 1/8 (or 1/4, if you can use malf) of all deflectable attacks, but most strength-support mages only use three at most: Malf, Aux, Azrael's Will, Rage Plasma Storm, Malf, Aux. Switch the order about, but I've never been in a battle where the strength-support mage exceeds three deflectable attacks.

Given those numbers, if you cannot use malf, you have a 25%-37.5% chance of deflecting at least one attack over the course of the battle. If you can use malf, it's a 50%-75% chance. (Lower number if the mage attacks with a deflectable attack twice, which is usually the case). So if you cannot use malf, the Aim Assist core becomes anti-luck; if you can use malf, it becomes pro-luck. The typical strength-support mage should find it reasonable if his attacks are deflected, but his opponent should not expect to deflect his attacks.

That being said, if you want to deflect more attacks, just get a deflection core. It'll basically negate Aim Assist. I'll also like to point out that one shouldn't be depending on luck to win. A Yeti would help tremendously, as would a Malf-using class.



< Message edited by Silver Sky Magician -- 6/29/2013 23:49:50 >
Post #: 29
6/29/2013 23:54:49   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 Many glass cannons depend on the luck of not being blocked/deflected or getting a crit to win, so the opposite of course is to depend on the opposing luck factors, which is blocking and deflecting and not getting critted. Of course, a yeti can be a very useful bot for countering, but it still doesn't always ensure the win just by its use, even if the opponent doesn't crit at all.
Epic  Post #: 30
6/30/2013 2:11:42   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


 There is something wrong if a win is certain.
Post #: 31
6/30/2013 11:19:21   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator
quote:

The typical strength-support mage should find it reasonable if his attacks are deflected, but his opponent should not expect to deflect his attacks.

This makes no sense when mixing the logic with this:
quote:

There is something wrong if a win is certain.

and this:
quote:

I'll also like to point out that one shouldn't be depending on luck to win.


If something's wrong when a win is certain, then everyone is depending on luck to win one way or another, whether they're depending on it a lot or barely any. Note that luck not only includes crits/blocks/deflects, but also the fact that the RNG doesn't completely troll you and give you the lowest damage possible in the damage range on all your attacks. Also, if someone finds it reasonable to be deflected, then the opponent should find it reasonable/expected to deflect, whether he/she does or not. Basically, what I'm saying is that for the first point, everyone depends on luck, so everyone, whether they want it or not, depends on luck to win. Luck is not always the positive side, it could also play devil's advocate and a person would be "lucky" if they didn't get any low values in the damage range of their attacks. My second point is that if it's reasonable, then it should be expected. If it isn't reasonable for someone to get deflected with a 4% chance, then it isn't expected. However, it would be reasonable for someone to get deflected with a 30% chance after using 4 deflectables throughout the fight, and thus that would be expected. Even though I say it's expected, it doesn't necessarily mean that it should be depended upon because of its unpredictability.
Epic  Post #: 32
6/30/2013 11:44:34   
Dual Thrusters
Member

Well celtic cleaver also helps out this build, so I'm guessing you want that nerfed too?
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 33
6/30/2013 16:58:37   
ED Divine Darkness
Member

a simple solution:
Become a glass cannon!!!!
not that hard to think of, was it?

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AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 34
6/30/2013 17:06:57   
Ranloth
Banned
quote:

a simple solution:
Become a glass cannon!!!!
not that hard to think of, was it?

This doesn't fix anything. What it does is make more people use the build/item/core to the point where it's overused and players start saying the build is severly OP and needs nerfing, which is pretty biased and doesn't help balance, at all.
AQ Epic  Post #: 35
6/30/2013 17:18:12   
ED Divine Darkness
Member

tec caster tech mage still beats glass cannon, even after the nerf. after they get malfed their plasma bolt still does 50. -_-
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 36
7/1/2013 15:26:42   
Predator9657
Member

quote:

Not supported

Nerfing an anti-luck = No.


My thought's exactly.
Epic  Post #: 37
7/1/2013 19:07:08   
lionblades
Member

glass cannons are not OP it is the azrael promos that are
The alux can take almost make buffs useless
without the promos glass cannons barely average 50-65%
anti luck cores are not the problem
AQW  Post #: 38
7/1/2013 20:08:34   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 @lionblades: I don't recall saying glass cannons are OP, and the discussion on whether or not azrael's promos are OP has been ongoing and this is honestly not the right thread if you want to debate on that. Second of all, I said the core "aim assist" is overpowered, which I honestly don't get why everyone keeps on using the term "anti-luck." I have seen very good glass cannons that can win without the promos as well, although most of them do use the promos.

If you are still convinced that "anti-luck" is a valid term, then please read this:
quote:

Wait, why is it anti-luck? It's more like pro-luck because the players with low technology are lucky enough to not get deflected at all. It's like how I can call a support build with the mastery cores anti-luck cores because the opponent would be lucky not to get crit at least once by my attacks. Does this logic not make sense to other people?

quote:

As a last thought, if I were to consider some glass cannon not being deflected by me when I'm a TM tech caster with 130 tech as luck, then I could argue that deflection should would be an anti-luck core too. Using this logic, I could argue the same with ninja reflexes. If I "deserved" a block but didn't get one because the opponent was lucky, ninja reflexes would be an anti-luck core for me because it would counter their no-block luck.


After reading that, if you can reply with a valid debate as to why my logic does not prove that anti-luck has little defined meaning behind it, then I will reconsider my thoughts on aim assist.
Epic  Post #: 39
7/1/2013 21:33:29   
edwardvulture
Member

glass cannons are OP
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 40
7/1/2013 21:51:18   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


 @Exploding

quote:

If something's wrong when a win is certain, then everyone is depending on luck to win one way or another, whether they're depending on it a lot or barely any. Note that luck not only includes crits/blocks/deflects, but also the fact that the RNG doesn't completely troll you and give you the lowest damage possible in the damage range on all your attacks. Also, if someone finds it reasonable to be deflected, then the opponent should find it reasonable/expected to deflect, whether he/she does or not. Basically, what I'm saying is that for the first point, everyone depends on luck, so everyone, whether they want it or not, depends on luck to win. Luck is not always the positive side, it could also play devil's advocate and a person would be "lucky" if they didn't get any low values in the damage range of their attacks. My second point is that if it's reasonable, then it should be expected. If it isn't reasonable for someone to get deflected with a 4% chance, then it isn't expected. However, it would be reasonable for someone to get deflected with a 30% chance after using 4 deflectables throughout the fight, and thus that would be expected. Even though I say it's expected, it doesn't necessarily mean that it should be depended upon because of its unpredictability.


The last sentence is the key one. (though the others are valid and relevant too)I have furthermore illustrated through the stats above that if you do not use malfunction, you get an average of one deflection per four glass cannon mage battles, assuming they use two deflectable attacks (which is the norm). If they use three, then without malfunction, one should get an average of one deflection per three glass cannon mage battles. In other words, without malfunction (and assuming high tech), getting a deflection is reasonable, but should not be expected, let alone depended upon, given the significantly lower-than-50% rate of deflections. One should not equate a higher-than-average rate of deflections with a higher chance to deflect than not to deflect. Even with malf, just as you attempt to maximise deflection chance, it is utterly reasonable for the opponent to do everything to minimise deflection chance. If a malf-user makes deflections his main strategy against glass cannons, he should use the deflection core to negate aim assist.

The premise of this entire thread is that that deflections are necessary, are to be depended upon in order to defeat glass cannons. Or at least, that was what I gathered, with the implication being that glass cannons are OP. Since you have categorically stated that glass cannons are, in your view, not OP, I would like you to restate the aim of this change. If you seek to minimise luck in this game due to cores, then I think a call for the eventual replacement of all current passive cores is in order.

< Message edited by Silver Sky Magician -- 7/5/2013 0:45:43 >
Post #: 41
7/2/2013 11:08:00   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 @Silver Sky: That's pretty much my main goal; to remove all luck-based passive cores in the game, and also shadow arts. Some luck-based skills such as stun skills shouldn't be changed though because of the fact that they do require a risky gamble and will otherwise yield very weak results if they don't stun. I just decided to tackle the more outrageous cores first for the ones that should be removed.
Epic  Post #: 42
7/4/2013 20:52:24   
kosmo
Member
 

 Anti-luck cores does not exist.Until aim assist deflection shield was much stronger than evry other armor passive core, since we had cores cores to block and deflect and cores to prevent blocks, it was reasonable to introduce cores to prevent deflections. I think the problem is more with deadly aim, this passive skill has the biggest possibilities of use compared to evry other passive skill (it doesnt matter if your opponent has high or low defences, more or less damage, this passive will always have the same effectivness).


At last glass cannon mages are not op, but if we compare them to most of the other fast builds (the propouse of these build is to win fast,not to win good) they are much better.The more these fast builds are strong, the more you ll see people using them and this affects evryones gameplay in a negaive way. And if you constantly get into win or loose battles with very little strategy involved you start thinking that it s better to play fast builds with no need to concentrate.
Epic  Post #: 43
7/30/2013 23:15:26   
ED Divine Darkness
Member

just switch the requirement of malf to tec.
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 44
7/31/2013 2:09:04   
SKRALL213
Member

So from reading everything. There is no need to nerf a core that does nothing or affect anything. I have seen players with the core but never use their sidearm. Who cares if its 7% increase you get the Deflection core for armor then. If it gets nerf down then that's a big waste to allot of players (Like me) who wasted 7k on it or even worst Varium and they they (and me) would have to waste more credits or varium to replace it. It sounds like what happen in Delta with enhancements then getting removed in omega. Why nerf something that no one complains or affects anything? Same with Caltic Cleaver it was a promo at the time and it deserved a good core. The Frost Weapons have a useless core but no one has complain about them getting removed. Best just leave aim assists alone. If anything its Azreal that is OP alone. Aim assist does nothing but give a (IMO) 2% advantage.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 45
8/2/2013 11:05:56   
Segawoman
Member

In my point of view, they should nerf Aim Assist by 1% and 1% only. The problem is simple - Imperial Bloody's BM Build!
Epic  Post #: 46
8/2/2013 12:09:28   
Dual Thrusters
Member

1 percent?

._.
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 47
8/2/2013 12:24:16   
Segawoman
Member

That's a big number!

Aim Assist isn't really a big problem but defect a percentage and hopefully, you're good 2 go.
Epic  Post #: 48
8/2/2013 15:04:13   
GearzHeadz
Member

Supported. Those two cores are very high in comparison to all others. And the malf and smoke are fine. Those are some of the few offensive skills that BH and techie have to compete with the heavy hitting attacks of merc.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 49
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