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RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread

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1/27/2014 21:52:54   
The Jop
Member

It's a 14 card deck with 5 DoTs, what are you talking about? You want me to spread out over 1/3 of my deck? And I keep saying iron hide can be used every turn, why are you talking about them spreading it around? The whole problem is clear when it is used every turn and DoTs are nullified. I don't know what kind of player psychology you're talking about, but when I face neutral characters they usually use iron hides turn after turn, not only when I place DoTs because it makes them scared or something. I've also explained why insta-damage hits aren't enough, because many characters with DoTs don't have enough attacks, they cost a lot more than DoTs, and they have no energy charging cards (in most cases).

And I don't know why you're saying you should kill them with Shadow Fire when Iron Hide runs out. I'm saying it never has to run out because of its cost and the fact that it can be bought from the card series.

< Message edited by The Jop -- 1/27/2014 21:58:38 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 326
1/27/2014 21:58:56   
TheSage
Member

Heh, the common denominator i keep seeing is, you only using DoTs and people are countering you with Iron Hide. The fact that they know you are going to spam DoTs they can easily set up counters to that. Its like playing Rock-Paper-Scissors against someone that only uses rock.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 327
1/27/2014 22:02:12   
Vertigo Beast
Member

^Scissors beats rock, right?

Well, Resonance has mostly DoTs so that being said, he's going to be using mostly DoTs to deal damage. Usually less than 1k per turn, but for many turns. Without Iron Hide, thats a very effective strategy, but with a multitude of Iron Hides he's going to get wrecked. Iron Hide is just a very good DoT counter, theres other ways to get around it, but DoTs probably arent going to help.

Theres always going to be the good and the not so good ways to defeat certain types of characters, and I think we've learned that we aren't going to take down characters overloaded with Iron Hide by slowly chipping away with DoTs. You're just gonna need some more attack cards. Now you don't like that they're CC'ing a ton of Iron Hide, why not CC your own cards to counter that. Put some strategy behind your moves.

@Below

Yes I know DoT's help, but only DoT's isnt going to get you very far is what Im saying. Thats why you need some of your own attack cards to deal some more damage.
If they're going to exploit the CC'ing of Iron Hide defensively, why not just throw some cards in there that make quick work of the 1000 block set up by iron hide.

< Message edited by Vertigo Beast -- 1/27/2014 22:07:01 >

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AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 328
1/27/2014 22:02:47   
DidYouKnowThat
Member

If I were you, I'd attack earlier then. I would attack at 14 charge, and IF I have Energize, start attacking at 10 charge. . . . .

That's your best bet, and it would certainly screw up his strategy. :P

@Vertigo: DoT's do help .. . D:

I get my Fire Whirl to weaken it down to 600, then I just break through with fast attacks or a Meteorite. . . works like magic since majority only use Iron Hide once, not stacking to 2,000 leaving them Vulnerable. . .

< Message edited by DidYouKnowThat -- 1/27/2014 22:03:46 >
Post #: 329
1/27/2014 22:03:09   
The Jop
Member

@Sage
The majority of the cards are DoTs. If I break through Iron hide, I'll only be doing about 1500 damage, if I get 3 attacks in one hand which is doubtful. Do you want to compare it to any other shield card? Standard Shield/Stone Wall/Ice Wall: 1.67x efficiency. Iron Hide: 4x efficiency. It's pretty clear there's an imbalance. It being temporary isn't a huge difference either, since you're not going to stop attacking for the rest of the match, right? Since they can use it every turn.

@DYKT
Not really, it will just give me less energy and he'll still block 1000-1100 damage per turn. Plus it's a level 20 battle, so that will just hurt me in the long run.

< Message edited by The Jop -- 1/27/2014 22:04:33 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 330
1/27/2014 22:08:55   
DidYouKnowThat
Member

Then why not use another element/character? Everything has their ''dead-end.'' Perhaps DoT's aren't the way to go.

I checked out Resonance's deck and I can see why Ironhide is a big problem. . . kind of rhythmic strategy. . .you know? They know you're going to slam a streak of DoT's so they can match the beat with their Bunches o' Ironhides. :P



< Message edited by DidYouKnowThat -- 1/27/2014 22:10:05 >
Post #: 331
1/27/2014 22:10:27   
The Jop
Member

DoTs are a pretty big part of a lot of elements. Like I said earlier, beatable does not mean balanced. And having to use another element to overcome one particular card should be a pretty clear sign that it's imbalanced, surely.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 332
1/27/2014 22:10:29   
TheSage
Member

It lasts 2 turns, blocks 1k damage, costs 5 mana and you might not always get one in your hand, even if half the deck was filled with Ironhides there is a 50/50 chance to get it in your hand every time you draw, increases or decreases depending on how many cards are in the deck and how many you have used/discarded.

Lets say a base deck of 15 has 2 iron hides in it then you add 5 more that is a total of 20 cards 7 are Iron Hides, that is about 30% chance to get 1 in your hand.

Also if someone is spamming Ironhides every turn they would not be able to do much else due to them spending 5 mana every other turn on Iron Hide alone leaving 5 extra mana for something else every time they draw a new hand.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 333
1/27/2014 22:13:07   
The Jop
Member

I already mentioned that Neutralize is the best energy regenerating card and solves that problem. Even if someone just had 5 energy for iron hide and 5 energy for something else they could still easily wear down the enemy.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 334
1/27/2014 22:13:09   
DidYouKnowThat
Member

Characters can be used in lots o' different ways though . . .Meh . .. even when I used my Lightning Wolf, although Iron Hides were a real big piss off, time your Lightnings right and it'll do you well. They'll be
scrambling for IronHides that they won't really attack you. . Lel . .

AND, when you have Ironhide on, and you attack someone's counter, it doesn't hit the Ironhide. It hits their Shields/Health. . .so that's a very important factor in my opinion .. . If Ironhide also can take up
counters, then yeah I'd agree it's OP . .Lololol

< Message edited by DidYouKnowThat -- 1/27/2014 22:14:08 >
Post #: 335
1/27/2014 22:13:27   
Tally
Member

@Jop
Actually, that's..pretty much the point. There should not be any "Master of all trades" character, everything has checks and balances, and a weakness. You just have to deal with it.

< Message edited by Tally -- 1/27/2014 22:14:10 >
DF MQ  Post #: 336
1/27/2014 22:14:41   
The Jop
Member

@Tally
Iron hide is the master of all trades. It can block attacks, DoTs, and unblockables. It completely blocks 1000-1100 damage of any kind every turn and can be used nonstop. And types of characters countering types of characters I'm fine with. But when there's a card that counters another type of card, that is too much, because that type of card is used by many different elements.

@DYKT
Iron hide does block counters and shields. I'm not really sure what you were trying to say here.

< Message edited by The Jop -- 1/27/2014 22:16:40 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 337
1/27/2014 22:16:42   
TheSage
Member

@The Jop : You should also know energy characters can hit for 3k damage in a single turn without using DoTs, that is 2k more then what Iron Hide can block.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 338
1/27/2014 22:18:15   
The Jop
Member

They can't do it every turn though, unlike how iron hide can be used every turn. And I'm talking about how iron hide overpowers DoTs, not direct damage.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 339
1/27/2014 22:24:01   
salene
Member

Iron hide is a pretty OP move...
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 340
1/27/2014 22:25:45   
TheSage
Member

Well, in the end Iron Hide is not going to be changed again, it was already lowered due to it blocking more damage then what can be dealt in a single turn on average.

As for it being used on "every" turn you would have to get more specifics on that because if it is indeed being used every turn then there might be something wrong because you cant draw cards and play cards at the same time.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 341
1/27/2014 22:29:02   
The Jop
Member

It lasts for 2 turns, so that's 1000-1100 defense per turn, which can be every turn if you have CC'd enough. Really, though? There's a recognized problem with a card and it will be ignored? Xmas Elf, just one character, was nerfed but a type of card that is present in many characters will remain unchanged? It's a PvP game and in its beta stage; if it's going to move ahead this should be addressed.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 342
1/27/2014 22:40:05   
Gorillo Titan
Member

Only a few characters even have Corruption though and Nuetral isn't the best at not over using energy as deathflow and powerflow are terrible cards.



Whats the problem with countering a spammer with a spammer?

< Message edited by Gorillo Titan -- 1/27/2014 22:41:33 >
Post #: 343
1/27/2014 22:40:36   
TheSage
Member

There is no problem with Iron Hide, it is not over powered and it does not grant immunity from everything, it can be broken and the person using it can be killed.

Look at it from the angle of defending from DoTs, it goes through Counters, eats up Shields and there is no way of removing them. Without Iron Hide there is no decent defense against DoTs.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 344
1/27/2014 23:01:01   
Vertigo Beast
Member

@TheSage

Well actually theres defense cards... They tend to work pretty well for me...

But I do agree, Iron Hide is just a robust blocking card, its also really not that common for it to be used every turn. When Iron Hides were put into base decks before CC there was never more than 1 or 2 as really that would've been pretty dang good then, and I don't see why we just limit how many we can have. No one seems to agree on a way to change it so that we all like it, and no one enjoys people spamming it, so I think limiting the amount of specific cards in CC or specific cards per deck may be a nice feature in this case.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 345
1/27/2014 23:06:20   
Gorillo Titan
Member

OS is still BETA good chance we will still have a lot of new cards in the future stuff that can easily OP iron hide something that makes your enemies deff into damage maybe.
Post #: 346
1/28/2014 0:29:14   
clintonian
Member

I think limiting the amount you can add from cc is the best option cause nothing is wrong with iron hide at the moment
Post #: 347
1/28/2014 3:10:47   
  Grixus Faldor



 If you wish to provide criticism, do so constructively. If you cannot verify your claims or substantiate them with the necessary evidence, please do not post. Game balance is not a joke, it is very serious. You all know that there is no such thing as an "unbeatable card" or an "overpowered card", powerful - yes, overpowered - no. To suggest that Iron Hide is overpowered when you have been told and shown that it definitely isn't is misinformation and continued assertions to this effect is tantamount to trolling and spam. If you wish to continue posting misinformation, you will be subject to disciplinary actions dependent on the severity of your transgressions. This is your first and last warning.

< Message edited by James Lu -- 1/28/2014 3:12:13 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 348
1/28/2014 12:54:35   
The Jop
Member

I've provided a lot of information about how it interacts with other cards, making it more powerful than any other shield card. Now all I can do is hope someone who can do something about it sees the clear imbalance and resolves the problem.

@Sage
I'm not saying there should be no iron hide, I'm just saying that it should last for one turn or defend less. Again, beatable does not mean balanced. If you want to talk about balance all you have to do is compare it to other shield cards, which have less than half the efficiency of iron hide, as I have said previously.

< Message edited by The Jop -- 1/28/2014 12:57:07 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 349
1/28/2014 12:57:43   
Gorillo Titan
Member

@The Jop stop talking about Iron Hide XD they've deleted post about it all day yesterday and even said stop talking about it.
Post #: 350
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