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RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread

 
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12/27/2013 13:08:51   
The Death Angel
Member

What is you guys' stance on Xmas Elf? It's obviously an incredibly strong character, but is it just a bit too much?
I like the mix between ice and water, but Xmas elf has the strongest sustain in the game at current time.
2 Ice Walls
2 Defends
1 Freeze
2 Healing Springs

And thats just the defensive side of things, she also carries Shatter, which you can get much more of from CC.
I've had my eye on Xmas Elf since it was released because on paper an ice char with water sustain would be insanely strong, and after a few matches, it was also displayed to me first hand.
It just feels like at higher levels, killing an Xmas Elf is nigh impossible with sustain she has. She can stall you to get more charges and hopefully Fresh Start --> Healing well + some shields going on.
I don't want to take away her healing capabilities, but I would suggest perhaps switching Healing Well (Which is the strongest water sustain card) with 2x Refresh? Xmas Elf has so many shields that I'd like to believe Refresh would
be awesome to have too, without being too overwhelming. She can effectively gain 1.6k HP back while maintaining shields.

I know I'll get quite a bit of flag for talking about Xmas Elf this early, since I know some people are leveling her up and almost hit the high 20's, but for such an accesible legendary character, I think she might have a bit more sustain than most characters can take.
It's just my take on it, I still want her to be a strong Ice/water char, but maybe tone her down just a bit.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 201
12/27/2013 13:18:24   
The Finnish Phoenix
Member

Yeah I can get behind the Elf's OP argument. She's currently the best character in the game, and considering she's free that's a bit of an injustice to characters like Frost Queen. But maybe this is the start of a new wave of more powerful dual-elemental characters so we'll see as 2014 progresses.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 202
12/27/2013 13:30:18   
The Death Angel
Member

Maybe we'll see Water and Electricity at some point? Utilising the sustain from water, and dots from electricity. Would be sorta neat, but all these dual-elemental characters are probaly the most tricky in terms of balance imo, but definently the most
interesting characters of the bunch too.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 203
12/27/2013 13:41:23   
priest_hidan
Member

Is the Elf better than founder champion?
AQW Epic  Post #: 204
12/27/2013 13:42:12   
The Finnish Phoenix
Member

Yeah XMas Elf is the first non-Water char with Fresh Start and has opened up new possibilities so it'll interesting to see what they do next.

Btw, here's an old pic featuring Poison and FireBall pre-nerf, Crush pre-buff, and two Chaos cards: http://prntscr.com/maydt

EDIT: Yes priest, it's much better. At level 15 (and probably below that too) it can beat level 20 FC's with full HP remaining.

< Message edited by The Finnish Phoenix -- 12/27/2013 13:46:24 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 205
12/27/2013 13:47:01   
priest_hidan
Member

I am pretty new to this game. Although, I got some legendary cards such as founder, black dragon, xmas elf and so on... which characters are considered the strongest here?
AQW Epic  Post #: 206
12/27/2013 13:55:00   
The Finnish Phoenix
Member

Nice those are good characters still but XMas Elf appears to be in a league of its own. I'll list what I consider are currently the best characters of each element:

Neutral: Taro (Kiazz is gonna give me hell but psh okay the Counters are better than I thought)
Fire: Rebirth Void
Ice: XMas Elf
Lightning: Volt Engineer
Earth: Minotaur
Water: Aqueous
Light: Queen Aegea
Shadow: Poison Drake Skexis (ty DYKT)

< Message edited by The Finnish Phoenix -- 12/27/2013 14:55:12 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 207
12/27/2013 14:26:18   
DidYouKnowThat
Member

@tfp: Neutral is Taro? What about Orc Chieftan. e.e

And, VR triumphs against Headless Horseman huh.. . so Headless Horseman is no longer the best Fire Character e.e

For Shadow, what about Void Champ and Skexis? o.o

Lol, didn't know Elf was that strong. . . . I only have her at level 4. Haha. :P And no water/Ice CC's. . .(except for x9 209 attack cards and 1 frostbite. . which I refuse to use.)
It can beat up Founder Champ?!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

One more thing, those Chaos Cards look a bit too strong. I mean, it can hit from 600~1,000 just using 4 energy? Or would it have to use the ''power-up Chaos Energy'' card thing. . . ?

And, didn't Nulgath say something about in the future, we would be able to leave some cards out of the characters original deck? So by using that, you could take out Frostbite. . .right? e.e

Post #: 208
12/27/2013 14:42:12   
Axel459
The Void Calls


Orc Chief is great some people don't like him because his deck is slightly bigger than most.

Headless Horseman hasn't been the strongest fire character or a while.


Chaos cards and characters seem like they would be something based around luck where you might get luck and do a lot of dmg to your opponent or waste a bunch of energy doing a little dmg.

I believe they decided not to use that idea as it could cause potential problems.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 209
12/27/2013 14:52:19   
The Finnish Phoenix
Member

Orc Chieftain has an 18-card deck which really hurts your chances of drawing Neutralize as well as CC'd Iron Hides and Corruptions. The 3 Counters and 2 native Iron Hides are nice, but it's not enough given its bulky deck imo.

Pure Shadow characters can't compete with Poison Drake because Iron Hide shuts down DoT's. As far as pure shadow characters go though, Abomination is better than Void Champion because the only difference is Abomination has a Defend where VC has a BloodRage. Skexis however is very similar to Poison Drake and looking back it does have an extra Defend and may be stronger, touché. ;)

XMas Elf can certainly beat up Founder Champ, I've done it a few times without any problems. :D Good luck with it!

The Chaos cards that we've seen are pretty strong, but they're also luck-oriented and can backfire. It's also hard to judge without knowing the context of what a Chaos character's deck would look like and at this rate they may never even be released.

< Message edited by The Finnish Phoenix -- 12/27/2013 14:56:19 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 210
12/28/2013 7:52:35   
Kiazz
Member

@Axel What CC would you use with orc chieftain?
@TFP Heh. But skexis only has 2 native poisons. Taro is basically a fixed PL, with the neutralize.
Post #: 211
12/28/2013 9:35:39   
Megadragonknight
Member

I feel Dire Monk is better than Taro, its my own opinion. Dire Monk is very offensive but also have good defence. If use CC, just put 2 Corruption and Dire Monk's offense will greatly increase. Taro is also a very strong neutral character but his deck are cost effective which is his main weakness even with Neutralize. Orc Chieftain is a very defensive Neutral character, his main weakness is the huge amount of default cards he had, using CC will decrease the chance to draw the card we need. I suggest CC 1 Corruption in Orc Chieftain's deck which will help to increase Orc Chieftain's offense.
Post #: 212
12/28/2013 13:08:35   
The Finnish Phoenix
Member

I like Taro because his two Counter Attacks mean that if the opponent tries to break through your Iron Hides with physical damage with a Fire or Lightning character, they'll take damage and then you can go on the offensive. A combination of Counter Attacks and Iron Hides cannot be broken through by any Neutral characters (even an Arcane Ranger with SuperCharged) without serious risks due to energy loss and damage taken.

quote:


@TFP Heh. But skexis only has 2 native poisons. Taro is basically a fixed PL, with the neutralize.


Sure, but the same amount of Poisons/Iron Hides combined, so where PD has to CC an Iron Hide Skexis can CC a Poison.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 213
12/28/2013 18:52:33   
Kiazz
Member

-I saw Axel running around with orc; I'm curious as to why orc might be great despite the deck.
-Gosh, addition.
-Dire has more attacks for potential empower-ment, for offense. And you can add counter attacks to dire as well, through CC.
Post #: 214
12/28/2013 18:57:23   
The Finnish Phoenix
Member

Of course you can, but the native decks are what differentiate characters from each other. Empower can't get past Iron Hide and Counters. :F
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 215
12/29/2013 0:27:45   
Luckydude4
Member
 

I'd like to jump on the Anti-Ice-boobs train and say that the Frost Elf is way OP; I'm talking Dire Monk with 3 ironhides and 3 corruption level ridiculous. Only she can Shatter-spam and heal indefinitely, in addition to the freeze spell she also has up her sleeve. I like to be able to random PVP with a few more elements other than Energy, Neutral, and Mammaries, and to that end I would like to make a modest proposal: take away the Frost Elf's Freeze. She's got the heals, she's got the shatters, and she has the shields; adding freeze on top of that makes her near unbeatable. Removing it is a good way to remain lore-friendly and to keep the balance, without taking away her core characteristics. Just my two cents on the whole thing. What do you think lads?

< Message edited by Luckydude4 -- 12/29/2013 0:29:38 >
Post #: 216
12/29/2013 0:42:27   
BJEBLE
Member

Maybe take away the freeze and replace it with another shield?Or what if we take away some shields? I don't want to take away the healing because that's what makes it unique. I think 1 shield and 1 Ice Wall would be enough.
DF  Post #: 217
12/29/2013 0:52:51   
The Finnish Phoenix
Member

Round of applause for Triadan ladies and gentlemen!

But yeah, defanging it of its Freeze would help balance things out so we could all go back to using Cosoma Titans again.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 218
12/29/2013 1:03:43   
The Jop
Member

I disagree; freeze is essential to ice characters. Just being able to heal and defend well isn't too overpowered if you can defend and deal good damage yourself, unlike iron hide which I think is a bigger problem. Healing Spring is less efficient than regular shields anyway (just barely).

< Message edited by The Jop -- 12/29/2013 1:15:22 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 219
12/29/2013 1:34:55   
DidYouKnowThat
Member

Maybe next year she'll cost like 12SG lol.

Ironhide not that big of a problem. . . . .It gives you time to latch on DoT's, Shields, or just charge. And if your opponent's hp is low enough, you can try to nuke your way through. That's how I won against CC'd Dire Monk. . .Meteorite and something else. :D

Kind of helps me since I charge to 14. . . . so that extra charge changes the 4-energy gain to 5-energy gain. >:) It just makes me stronger. Haha.

I think that's what helps me win against those people who charge to 19. I either use Iron Hide, or I Freeze them. That's a LOT of wasted energy, and I get the upper-hand. :D

And if I use Ironhide, they either have to attack me and waste 1,000 hits, put up DoT's early, or just put up shields. And they don't put up too many since they need to conserve energy to go on the offensive. (Not to mention that 2nd Ironhide isn't too far behind >:) which means that sometimes I can drag it to 4 turns of Ironhide.)

< Message edited by DidYouKnowThat -- 12/29/2013 1:40:16 >
Post #: 220
12/29/2013 2:05:08   
The Jop
Member

Iron Hide can be put up every turn and block unblockables though. Wouldn't you see an issue if any other element could put up 2000 defense every turn? And DoTs don't really do much on their own since iron hide blocks 1000 damage per turn; you would have to have a lot of energy to put up several DoTs and break through iron hide with regular attacks. It has 4:1 efficiency compared to 1.67:1 for regular shields (how much defense you get per 1 energy). I put up most of the reasons I see to nerf it on pages 18 & 19 on this thread. It's available from the Neutral Series so there's nothing to stop players from adding 5 iron hides and using one per turn. Just because it's possible to beat someone who iron hides constantly (it would still be extremely difficult), it does not mean that the card is balanced by any means.

Here's the whole conversation I had with Resk about it. There's no need to read through the whole essay but I just wanted to put it in the right thread. It may lack context in some places because I was talking about what Resk had said previously:

quote:

Nerf iron hide for the love of all that is good and decent in the world. Every neutral character I've fought in PvP has used it every turn. How is 1000-1100 defense that REGENERATES EVERY TURN AND ABSORBS UNBLOCKABLES balanced? It effectively more than doubles the character's health if you fight long enough. If you put a cap on how many shields can be spammed by ice characters, you should really do something about this, because now neutral characters have the same infinite defense problem (except they can also block unblockables). I recommend it blocking 1000-2000 damage for one turn only, even if you want to lower the cost for that. It being temporary makes no difference; most players charge to the cap so they can regenerate at least enough for iron hide every turn, while using neutralize and their excess energy to use other cards.

That's the thing, it completely blocks most DoTs. When one card can completely counteract a whole type of character, there's a problem. Not many characters are purely offensive anyway, and neutral characters can always put up counterattacks to deal with them. Neutral has a way to deal with everything, so it should have some kind of disability to put it on par with other elements. That would have been its high costs for cards, but neutralize makes it very easy to get energy back. I'm okay with putting neutralize back at discarding 3 cards for 10 energy, so that iron hide might not be spammed as much. However, I still think iron hide is the main problem and making iron hide require more cards would just hinder dual element characters. More energy efficient shields that block everything and can be kept up throughout the battle are too powerful. I don't think it should last for 2 turns. Even having it as 2000 for one turn would be like a one turn stun or significantly reduce the damage done that turn. It's still more efficient than shields and it can block any attack including unblockables, but it would no longer be able to be used non-stop. I mean, if there's any defense card you can use non-stop, there's a problem. That's why a cap was set for shields, because ice characters could set up defense that could not be taken down (but at least unblockables worked against those).

Plus the ratio for iron hide would actually be 4:1 since it puts up 1000 (or 1100) shields each turn for 2 turns equaling 2000 (or 2200) shields for 5 energy, and you can see what that does to DoTs. So it's more than double the efficiency of regular shields and it can be (and normally is) used throughout the fight. It's more than double the efficiency (4 times the energy normally, and 4.4 for CC iron hide) of shields, blocks unblockables, and can be used every turn. Even if you couldn't you use CC so you couldn't draw it every turn it would still be overpowered. Now it's just a problem that an overpowered card can be used non-stop, giving a player 1000-1100 defense every turn.

Characters with Neutralize don't have the problem of only having 5 energy available every turn. It would be possible to slowly take down your enemy like that anyway, but they have energy near the cap when they finish charging at the start of the fight or whenever they use neutralize. I only actually won those battles because there were one or two times you didn't use iron hide. The other times you used it non-stop, and 4 or 5 electric arcs equal 0 damage in that case, since you also had a counterattack so I couldn't attack you normally. But for counterattack, you usually only have to put down one or two to discourage your opponent from attacking because of the massive hit they would take if they did, and the energy they would waste. It's not used as a shield usually, because it's intended to stop the opponent from using normal attacks instead of actually blocking 500 damage.

The card just makes it a struggle to move forward in any battle and that seems like too much. I know people would be complaining if ice characters could reach the cap of 2000 shields every single turn (CC iron hide even goes over the cap), and in that case at least unblockables could still do damage. It being temporary might have been a solution if some characters didn't have 2 of them, and CC made it possible to draw it every turn. I could argue that it's almost as bad as a stun card for the amount damage it blocks, so it shouldn't have been a CC card or have 2 iron hides in one character's deck. Plus it's not a matter of waiting for a neutral character to run low on energy because they use iron hide every turn, since they have the most efficient energy regenerating card.

Anyway, having it be 2000-2200 defense for one turn would still be just as efficient as it as now, except it would make people wait a turn to attack or make them waste a lot of energy to break through the shields (also DoTs would work for that one turn the neutral character is charging at least).


< Message edited by The Jop -- 12/29/2013 2:13:37 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 221
12/29/2013 3:02:30   
Luckydude4
Member
 

"I disagree; freeze is essential to ice characters. Just being able to heal and defend well isn't too overpowered if you can defend and deal good damage yourself, unlike iron hide which I think is a bigger problem. Healing Spring is less efficient than regular shields anyway (just barely). "

That's kind of the point. The Frost Elf doesn't need to use her attacking or shielding element to heal herself. She can throw two shatters and renew her healing element at the same time, or shield and heal without compromising her striking power. Regular Ice characters have to choose between using their reserves for shielding or spamming shatter. The fact that she is able to heal in addition to striking and shielding, combined with her ability to control the course of the battle with freeze is way unbalanced. We're not trying to create the perfect character Jop. Every form must have their vulnerability. That's how balance works, and thats why the Frost Elf needs a vulnerability. Her ability to freeze is the only discordant element and it needs to be removed; she will still be able to shield as a frost character can, still has outside reserves to heal herself, and still have her striking capacity. I believe that this is the best possible compromise to the situation.

< Message edited by Luckydude4 -- 12/29/2013 3:06:20 >
Post #: 222
12/29/2013 3:05:50   
The Jop
Member

XMas Elf does have a vulnerability. She uses a majority of her energy for defense and healing, so a character that can do a good amount of damage while protecting itself from shatters will be able to win. Especially since there is no charge card for ice so she cannot use icewall every turn when it gets to the later turns.

< Message edited by The Jop -- 12/29/2013 3:09:25 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 223
12/29/2013 3:18:56   
Luckydude4
Member
 

The statement that the Frost Elf uses the majority of her energy on shielding is flat out erroneous, to be frank. She's an Ice character. Shatter spam is how she rolls, and how all Ice characters function. And everyone who has two working neurons has already attached more shatters to her deck in order to boost that strategy. As an addendum, please check your math: 2000 shield/12 energy = 166.666, 1600 HP/10 energy = 160. The two defensive cycles are virtually the same in terms of efficiency. Your statements towards their disparity are also erroneous, and ignore the fact that they function independently of each other. Ice characters have a lot of discarded attack cards, as we focus on shatters and shields. Giving a character the opportunity to use these discarded attack cards to charge a healing cycle is a powerful tool. The Frost Elf doesn't need to focus on shields if her healing is that competitive, and can use DoT's that are just as efficient as Corruptions, if less expedient. The fact that she can freeze negates that last factor.
Post #: 224
12/29/2013 3:33:18   
DidYouKnowThat
Member

Actions speak louder than words.

How about this, someone have a level 20 Xmas elf or something. . . . . . .? Then everyone try to fight it without CC's and lets see if it's killable. And then try and see how it is with CC's Take SS!

Reason why I say verse it with CC and without CC is that sometimes un-overpowered things turn overpowered with boosts like CC's.

If it's truly that strong, then it will prove to be. I have not versed it in PvP yet.

(I find that the way to kill big defense characters, is like a big bug. You gotta kill the mushy part inside. So before they put defense, I make sure to do a LOT of damage before they can put up shields, which is also why I charge up to 14, not 19. Though it can heal. . .that will be a big problem. Especially since the HEAL is from ANOTHER element, and she has a FRESH START, and no other card is using up that WATER energy, so it is for healing and ONLY for healing. So it could be a little OP, and I love LuckyDude's statement. ''We are NOT trying to create the PERFECT character. Every form must have their vulnerability.''

< Message edited by DidYouKnowThat -- 12/29/2013 3:34:06 >
Post #: 225
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